6 ms·

> although in the interview I might politely ask (after solving the problem) what relevance it has to the job, just to make the point. I highly advise you don'

by libria 7y ago

> although in the interview I might politely ask (after solving the problem) what relevance it has to the job, just to make the point. I highly advise you don't do this, because I don't consider it polite. Everyone tries to be objective in final review, so don't jab them with something snarky they'll remember about you while discussing your performance. It's an exercise, it's artificial. Can you convert an abstract idea into code. Yes there are bad questions and bad interviewers, that doesn't mean wanting to see you write code is bad. You don't want Microsoft's new "real world, from the job" style questions [1] because I've had a few of those and they're misguided. Way too much internal domain knowledge is missing and I spend too long trying to get it out of them. That said, DP in a phone screen for devops is a little tough. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-new-developer-interview-process-2018-12?IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-new-developer-inte...

scottLobster 7y ago
I wouldn't ask it snarkily. I've been hired for jobs before and then asked to work on stuff that, while related, was nowhere in the job description. Got hired to do Java/C++ development, was pushed into being part-time sysadmin for our primary test environment because my team had spare capacity and our dev-ops team didn't. There were times I went 6 months without touching a line of Java or C++. Another guy I worked with said he got hired for real-time c development and then got pushed into Java development shortly after arriving. Some managers embrace the notion that all software engineers are basically the same and you can shuffle them around outside their area of expertise and then complain when efficiency goes down. Now granted there are probably more strategic ways to ask about that then the direct method I originally posted, but if I'm interviewing with one of such managers, I want to know.
- libria 7y ago
  Fair enough; phrase it "What would my day-to-day work look like?" "What percentage of time coding/designing/testing/meetings?" The current interview process could be better but right now these coding questions are just a proxy for ability/aptitude. I just want you to have the best shot at this job. Be as critical about the process as you want after you get it.
  - scottLobster 7y ago
    Wasn't trying to be confrontational, advice from the other side of the table is always appreciated. :) And you're right. 9/10 times it'll just be a fizzbuzz proxy and not worth the risk of a direct question.
- diminoten 7y ago
  There's literally no way to not ask that snarkily. Don't do it. Also, it reeks of "justice driven opinion having" which is scary beyond reason for an employer, e.g. "They didn't ask for this feature the right way so I'm not going to deliver it/deliver it in a way that makes them unhappy."
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - sbov 7y ago
    There's plenty of ways to do it non-snarkily. Interviews go both ways. If you have a problem simply saying something like "nah, these are just screening problems, it's hard to come up with good ones" then it sounds like there's deeper problems here. Like, the company having issues recognizing even obvious flaws in its own processes.
    - diminoten 7y ago
      You will be looking for jobs forever if you read that much into every interaction, and possibly for good reason.
  - scottLobster 7y ago
    I know it's the internet, but you seem to projecting a certain tone onto my statements that wouldn't be there. I don't know where you got "justice driven opinion having" from, it's mission-driven opinion having. They need to know I can code my way out of a shoe-box, and in return I need to know they can lead a team of engineers through a Chuck-E-Cheese ball pit. Someone who gets defensive about an honest, neutral-tone question about their interview process is likely going to be defensive about more important decisions, which means they take feedback poorly and are likely a poor leader. This is assuming I'm talking to a hiring manager and not an HR rep. I don't apply to missions I'm not willing to work overtime for. If I'm going to make sacrifices for whatever my employment does, I require that my leadership shares my commitment and is fundamentally competent such that they don't needlessly waste my sacrifices. In any interview I'll be probing for that as respectfully as I can, just as they'll be probing me for technical aptitude and whatever character profile they're looking for.
wayoutthere 7y ago
The problem with tech interviews is that it’s super rare to find the right combination of elite technical skills and emotional intelligence required to properly assess a candidate. Those people are usually busy. What you end up with is someone who is either a mid-level engineer and almost totally green to recruiting or an HR drone with zero technical skills who is liable to believe a bunch of bullshit. Both tend to ask stupid interview questions they learned from a book because they’re out of their depth in some way. This is not a situation unique to software either; it affects nearly every professional specialization (especially ones where the pay gap between an HR role and a functional role is as big as it is in tech). You’re right, it makes zero sense to put your interviewer on the defensive — being likable is almost always more important than being good.
SkyBelow 7y ago
It is all about phrasing. If you ask it like "I thought this was a X position, doing Y isn't something I expected to be related. I can do it, but I was hoping you could clarify if the expectation was the ability to do X, Y, or both?" you will likely have a far better outcome than if you come off as challenging them.

by libria 7y ago

scottLobster 7y ago

I wouldn't ask it snarkily. I've been hired for jobs before and then asked to work on stuff that, while related, was nowhere in the job description. Got hired to do Java/C++ development, was pushed into being part-time sysadmin for our primary test environment because my team had spare capacity and our dev-ops team didn't. There were times I went 6 months without touching a line of Java or C++. Another guy I worked with said he got hired for real-time c development and then got pushed into Java development shortly after arriving. Some managers embrace the notion that all software engineers are basically the same and you can shuffle them around outside their area of expertise and then complain when efficiency goes down. Now granted there are probably more strategic ways to ask about that then the direct method I originally posted, but if I'm interviewing with one of such managers, I want to know.

libria 7y ago
Fair enough; phrase it "What would my day-to-day work look like?" "What percentage of time coding/designing/testing/meetings?" The current interview process could be better but right now these coding questions are just a proxy for ability/aptitude. I just want you to have the best shot at this job. Be as critical about the process as you want after you get it.
- scottLobster 7y ago
  Wasn't trying to be confrontational, advice from the other side of the table is always appreciated. :) And you're right. 9/10 times it'll just be a fizzbuzz proxy and not worth the risk of a direct question.
diminoten 7y ago
There's literally no way to not ask that snarkily. Don't do it. Also, it reeks of "justice driven opinion having" which is scary beyond reason for an employer, e.g. "They didn't ask for this feature the right way so I'm not going to deliver it/deliver it in a way that makes them unhappy."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sbov 7y ago
  There's plenty of ways to do it non-snarkily. Interviews go both ways. If you have a problem simply saying something like "nah, these are just screening problems, it's hard to come up with good ones" then it sounds like there's deeper problems here. Like, the company having issues recognizing even obvious flaws in its own processes.
  - diminoten 7y ago
    You will be looking for jobs forever if you read that much into every interaction, and possibly for good reason.
- scottLobster 7y ago
  I know it's the internet, but you seem to projecting a certain tone onto my statements that wouldn't be there. I don't know where you got "justice driven opinion having" from, it's mission-driven opinion having. They need to know I can code my way out of a shoe-box, and in return I need to know they can lead a team of engineers through a Chuck-E-Cheese ball pit. Someone who gets defensive about an honest, neutral-tone question about their interview process is likely going to be defensive about more important decisions, which means they take feedback poorly and are likely a poor leader. This is assuming I'm talking to a hiring manager and not an HR rep. I don't apply to missions I'm not willing to work overtime for. If I'm going to make sacrifices for whatever my employment does, I require that my leadership shares my commitment and is fundamentally competent such that they don't needlessly waste my sacrifices. In any interview I'll be probing for that as respectfully as I can, just as they'll be probing me for technical aptitude and whatever character profile they're looking for.

wayoutthere 7y ago

The problem with tech interviews is that it’s super rare to find the right combination of elite technical skills and emotional intelligence required to properly assess a candidate. Those people are usually busy. What you end up with is someone who is either a mid-level engineer and almost totally green to recruiting or an HR drone with zero technical skills who is liable to believe a bunch of bullshit. Both tend to ask stupid interview questions they learned from a book because they’re out of their depth in some way. This is not a situation unique to software either; it affects nearly every professional specialization (especially ones where the pay gap between an HR role and a functional role is as big as it is in tech). You’re right, it makes zero sense to put your interviewer on the defensive — being likable is almost always more important than being good.

SkyBelow 7y ago

It is all about phrasing. If you ask it like "I thought this was a X position, doing Y isn't something I expected to be related. I can do it, but I was hoping you could clarify if the expectation was the ability to do X, Y, or both?" you will likely have a far better outcome than if you come off as challenging them.