5 ms·

Fuller House: Exposing high-end poker cheating devices (2016)

91 points by Jerry2 7y ago

beerdoggie 7y ago
Nice tear down and a remarkable device, but how could one ever expect to get the marked cards into circulation?
- q3k 7y ago
  This is for scammers who are cooperating with the house.
  - randomvectors 7y ago
    More commonly this happens in private games, not in casinos.
- flatiron 7y ago
  they don't. this isn't casino gambling this is back parlor gambling.
- randomvectors 7y ago
  Organise your own high stakes game. Happens more often that you would think.
crazypyro 7y ago
Richard Turner always talked about how much he had to turn down offers to fix home-games. A machine doesn't have any pesky ethics or morals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Turner_(magician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Turner_(magician)
dang 7y ago
Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769819
inflatableDodo 7y ago
>"Note that taking a screenshot of the cheating app turned out to be more difficult than expected because the ROM is hardened against analysis. In particular, they removed the ADB server (Android debugging) and the ability to take a screenshot when the phone is operating in cheating mode. However, with a bit of work, I was able to re-establish the functionalities needed to take the screenshots of the app used in this section." I'd have used a camera. edit - this got me thinking, taken as an average, each playing card's face is a unique colour. As a card is placed face down onto a table, if you point a camera at the patch of table where the card is being placed, you should be able to work out which card it is if you look carefully at the change in the colour of the light reflected. As it gets really close you can also pull out some pattern.
pmoriarty 7y ago
Anyone interested in this would do well to read Gambling Scams[1] by Darwin Ortiz and How to Cheat at Everything[2] by Simon Lovell. There's also an interesting Real Hustle episode where they manage to cheat their way in to winning a high stakes game against some famous professional poker players.[3] The books mentioned above talk in detail about cheating methods in all sorts of games, not just poker, and have solidified my own determination to never gamble for money. It's way too easy to be cheated -- and the cheaters don't need any high end devices to do it either. Plenty of methods are very simple, very cheap (if you don't count the medical, legal, or funeral bills if you get caught), and very effective. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Gambling-Scams-Detect-Protect-Yourself/dp/0818405295/ https://www.amazon.com/Gambling-Scams-Detect-Protect-Yoursel... [2] - https://www.amazon.com/How-Cheat-Everything-Simon-Lovell/dp/1560259736/ https://www.amazon.com/How-Cheat-Everything-Simon-Lovell/dp/... [3] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63jgfmgqkO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63jgfmgqkO0
- daodedickinson 7y ago
  Imagine what they're doing with basketballs and footballs... deflategate, for example.
- iamkroot 7y ago
  > (if you don't count the medical, legal, or funeral bills if you get caught) I see this anecdote/joke tossed out every time a gambling cheating story appears, but I don't think I've ever seen evidence that such retributive tactics are used with regularity. Especially by the major casino corporations.
nacho2sweet 7y ago
This makes me glad I stayed away from the house game circuit when I played professionally (never mind the collecting lent money aspect). Usually the idea with house games is they are a little more loose with money, rules, drinking, weed etc, so you wouldn't be calling people out for having devices on the table. He shoulda got KEM cards or other real plastic cards though if he was serious about ripping off a game!
skizm 7y ago
I was getting really excited until I realized you needed the special deck also. Still a pretty cool piece of tech, for sure, and not easy, but ultimately, just a slightly fancier QR code reader, right?
- justwalt 7y ago
  That’s how I felt, too. I was envisioning some sort of high framerate camera that could take an image of the cards as they’re dealt.
ncmncm 7y ago
This is outstanding tear-down work. I wonder how they read out the ROM. JTAG? And what was in the part of the phone where the camera and LEDs are now?
- rtkwe 7y ago
  Maybe nothing. With all the phone manufacturing going on in China it'd be pretty easy to take an existing cheap phone design and shuffle around the internals or design a main board from scratch with the necessary space.
Animats 7y ago
The concept is very simple - a marked deck, marked with a bar code in IR-reflective ink on the card edges. The readout device is a modified phone. It's nicely implemented, but you have to be able to get your own deck into the game.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  A less sophisticated version could work if you were able to mark decks yourself with some IR redlective and sweat. You may not be able to mark all 52 cards uniquely, but knowing the 10s and face cards from the non- should be a huge edge in some games. I could think of more dangerous but lower tech ideas, but my imagination isn’t free!
sysbin 7y ago
I'm surprised how well an engineer needed to make this device, would actually go ahead and make it with the obvious purpose understood.
hgibbs 7y ago
Incidentally, while having a look for Ruelle's book on thermodynamic formalism I stumbled upon a book title something along the lines of "the dynamics of roulette". I expected something about rare events in probability theory, perhaps betting strategies for optimising expected profit for certain levels of risk, but it ended up being on the mechanics of the roulette table itself - pages upon pages of hefty calculations of roulette balls including spin, velocity etc etc. It is crazy how much effort people put into getting an edge at a game.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  You might want to look for a book called "The Eudaemonic Pie." It's about a bunch of chaos theorists who analyze roulette and figure out how to gain a statistical edge.
thekevan 7y ago
They lost my interest and intrigue what I learned you had to get the dealer to use a marked deck.
Cyndre 7y ago
I can see something like this being more developed for the magician doing card tricks and then brought in as a way to fix poker games.

91 points by Jerry2 7y ago

beerdoggie 7y ago

Nice tear down and a remarkable device, but how could one ever expect to get the marked cards into circulation?

q3k 7y ago
This is for scammers who are cooperating with the house.
- randomvectors 7y ago
  More commonly this happens in private games, not in casinos.
flatiron 7y ago
they don't. this isn't casino gambling this is back parlor gambling.
randomvectors 7y ago
Organise your own high stakes game. Happens more often that you would think.

crazypyro 7y ago

Richard Turner always talked about how much he had to turn down offers to fix home-games. A machine doesn't have any pesky ethics or morals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Turner_(magician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Turner_(magician)

dang 7y ago

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769819

inflatableDodo 7y ago

>"Note that taking a screenshot of the cheating app turned out to be more difficult than expected because the ROM is hardened against analysis. In particular, they removed the ADB server (Android debugging) and the ability to take a screenshot when the phone is operating in cheating mode. However, with a bit of work, I was able to re-establish the functionalities needed to take the screenshots of the app used in this section." I'd have used a camera. edit - this got me thinking, taken as an average, each playing card's face is a unique colour. As a card is placed face down onto a table, if you point a camera at the patch of table where the card is being placed, you should be able to work out which card it is if you look carefully at the change in the colour of the light reflected. As it gets really close you can also pull out some pattern.

pmoriarty 7y ago

Anyone interested in this would do well to read Gambling Scams[1] by Darwin Ortiz and How to Cheat at Everything[2] by Simon Lovell. There's also an interesting Real Hustle episode where they manage to cheat their way in to winning a high stakes game against some famous professional poker players.[3] The books mentioned above talk in detail about cheating methods in all sorts of games, not just poker, and have solidified my own determination to never gamble for money. It's way too easy to be cheated -- and the cheaters don't need any high end devices to do it either. Plenty of methods are very simple, very cheap (if you don't count the medical, legal, or funeral bills if you get caught), and very effective. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Gambling-Scams-Detect-Protect-Yourself/dp/0818405295/ https://www.amazon.com/Gambling-Scams-Detect-Protect-Yoursel... [2] - https://www.amazon.com/How-Cheat-Everything-Simon-Lovell/dp/1560259736/ https://www.amazon.com/How-Cheat-Everything-Simon-Lovell/dp/... [3] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63jgfmgqkO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63jgfmgqkO0

daodedickinson 7y ago
Imagine what they're doing with basketballs and footballs... deflategate, for example.
iamkroot 7y ago
> (if you don't count the medical, legal, or funeral bills if you get caught) I see this anecdote/joke tossed out every time a gambling cheating story appears, but I don't think I've ever seen evidence that such retributive tactics are used with regularity. Especially by the major casino corporations.

nacho2sweet 7y ago

This makes me glad I stayed away from the house game circuit when I played professionally (never mind the collecting lent money aspect). Usually the idea with house games is they are a little more loose with money, rules, drinking, weed etc, so you wouldn't be calling people out for having devices on the table. He shoulda got KEM cards or other real plastic cards though if he was serious about ripping off a game!

skizm 7y ago

I was getting really excited until I realized you needed the special deck also. Still a pretty cool piece of tech, for sure, and not easy, but ultimately, just a slightly fancier QR code reader, right?

justwalt 7y ago
That’s how I felt, too. I was envisioning some sort of high framerate camera that could take an image of the cards as they’re dealt.

ncmncm 7y ago

This is outstanding tear-down work. I wonder how they read out the ROM. JTAG? And what was in the part of the phone where the camera and LEDs are now?

rtkwe 7y ago
Maybe nothing. With all the phone manufacturing going on in China it'd be pretty easy to take an existing cheap phone design and shuffle around the internals or design a main board from scratch with the necessary space.

Animats 7y ago

The concept is very simple - a marked deck, marked with a bar code in IR-reflective ink on the card edges. The readout device is a modified phone. It's nicely implemented, but you have to be able to get your own deck into the game.

Scoundreller 7y ago
A less sophisticated version could work if you were able to mark decks yourself with some IR redlective and sweat. You may not be able to mark all 52 cards uniquely, but knowing the 10s and face cards from the non- should be a huge edge in some games. I could think of more dangerous but lower tech ideas, but my imagination isn’t free!

sysbin 7y ago

I'm surprised how well an engineer needed to make this device, would actually go ahead and make it with the obvious purpose understood.

hgibbs 7y ago

Incidentally, while having a look for Ruelle's book on thermodynamic formalism I stumbled upon a book title something along the lines of "the dynamics of roulette". I expected something about rare events in probability theory, perhaps betting strategies for optimising expected profit for certain levels of risk, but it ended up being on the mechanics of the roulette table itself - pages upon pages of hefty calculations of roulette balls including spin, velocity etc etc. It is crazy how much effort people put into getting an edge at a game.

dreamcompiler 7y ago
You might want to look for a book called "The Eudaemonic Pie." It's about a bunch of chaos theorists who analyze roulette and figure out how to gain a statistical edge.

thekevan 7y ago

They lost my interest and intrigue what I learned you had to get the dealer to use a marked deck.

Cyndre 7y ago

I can see something like this being more developed for the magician doing card tricks and then brought in as a way to fix poker games.