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The best level designs guide you to certain things while making you feel like you discovered or solved something completely on your own. Sometimes indies use p

The best level designs guide you to certain things while making you feel like you discovered or solved something completely on your own. Sometimes indies use procedural generation as a shortcut to creating levels (or replayability) without consideration for these patterns, and instead of creating an engaging varied scenario they end up being obviously disjointed and break the flow of the player.

CraftThatBlock 7y ago
For puzzle games, discovering the answer is much more satisfying than finding it in my opinion.
- papln 7y ago
  How are you defining "discovering" vs "finding"? In plain language they are synonyms. Are you saying that seeing the answer is more satisfying than solving the puzzle? (as in a joke or a magic trick that you don't even try to solve?)
  - chii 7y ago
    i dunno if the parent post meant this, but i personally do feel that a game which seems to "let you do anything to solve the problem" plays better than one which has a "designed solution". Think an adventure game, where in order to proceed, you have to figure out the intention of the game designer for items and combinations (and pixel hunting). Compare that to the recent zelda game, where puzzles are more free-form - where you can employ physics to solve the problem at hand (such as crossing a cravice by falling a tree trunk across it).
keerthiko 7y ago
Most indies pay close attention to the level design, even if leaning on procedural generation to get part of the way there. I am part of a 2-person team building an indie racing/puzzle game. I am the "tools" guy and my teammate is the "level design" guy, and I provide the building blocks and the generative machinery, and he massages them into an intentional and balanced experience. Procedural level generation is only viable in production for games if a professional level designer can step in and tweak it.
- mysterydip 7y ago
  Don't know if I agree with most (after all there were 7600 games released on steam in 2017), but I'd say the ones that are successful do pay close attention.
- bostonpete 7y ago
  I'm not much of a gamer but a racing/puzzle game sounds intriguing. Is that a novel concept or are there existing examples out there already?
  - jwagenet 7y ago
    Trackmania has both dev and user created tracks which offer a puzzle type experience (in terms of determining how to get through the checkpoints). The most complex of these are ‘RPG’ tracks which are long, sometimes technically difficult, and often themed.
  - keerthiko 7y ago
    As a core game concept, it isn't common. We came upon it because we want our portfolio to be games that involve a cross-section of skills and play styles (strategic, on-the-fly planning, twitchy controls)[0] You can think of speedrunning a puzzle game as a racing/puzzle game though :) [0] https://colorballsgame.com/ https://colorballsgame.com/
apacheCamel 7y ago
I agree, I think some of the best designs lead you along without making it obvious at all. My opinion is that some of the top tier level design has a strict path on moving forward but lets it up to the player to decide how exactly they want to move down it.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
Indeed. Good procgen can be amazing, but bad procgen feels really half-assed. Derek Yu's Spelunky pretty much single-handedly started the current procgen revolution, and he wrote a book about it. :) https://bossfightbooks.com/products/spelunky-by-derek-yu https://bossfightbooks.com/products/spelunky-by-derek-yu (He also wrote extensively about it in his blog, as I recall, though I don't have a link handy.)
Xelbair 7y ago
I really liked the approach the Dead Cells developers took. They handcrafted tiles, out of which a metroidvania style levels were generated. It consisted of a random graph generation(with constraints), and fitting the handcrafted elements to that graph. It took the best of both worlds - a properly designed levels with tons of replayability.

CraftThatBlock 7y ago

For puzzle games, discovering the answer is much more satisfying than finding it in my opinion.

papln 7y ago
How are you defining "discovering" vs "finding"? In plain language they are synonyms. Are you saying that seeing the answer is more satisfying than solving the puzzle? (as in a joke or a magic trick that you don't even try to solve?)
- chii 7y ago
  i dunno if the parent post meant this, but i personally do feel that a game which seems to "let you do anything to solve the problem" plays better than one which has a "designed solution". Think an adventure game, where in order to proceed, you have to figure out the intention of the game designer for items and combinations (and pixel hunting). Compare that to the recent zelda game, where puzzles are more free-form - where you can employ physics to solve the problem at hand (such as crossing a cravice by falling a tree trunk across it).

keerthiko 7y ago

Most indies pay close attention to the level design, even if leaning on procedural generation to get part of the way there. I am part of a 2-person team building an indie racing/puzzle game. I am the "tools" guy and my teammate is the "level design" guy, and I provide the building blocks and the generative machinery, and he massages them into an intentional and balanced experience. Procedural level generation is only viable in production for games if a professional level designer can step in and tweak it.

mysterydip 7y ago
Don't know if I agree with most (after all there were 7600 games released on steam in 2017), but I'd say the ones that are successful do pay close attention.
bostonpete 7y ago
I'm not much of a gamer but a racing/puzzle game sounds intriguing. Is that a novel concept or are there existing examples out there already?
- jwagenet 7y ago
  Trackmania has both dev and user created tracks which offer a puzzle type experience (in terms of determining how to get through the checkpoints). The most complex of these are ‘RPG’ tracks which are long, sometimes technically difficult, and often themed.
- keerthiko 7y ago
  As a core game concept, it isn't common. We came upon it because we want our portfolio to be games that involve a cross-section of skills and play styles (strategic, on-the-fly planning, twitchy controls)[0] You can think of speedrunning a puzzle game as a racing/puzzle game though :) [0] https://colorballsgame.com/ https://colorballsgame.com/

apacheCamel 7y ago

I agree, I think some of the best designs lead you along without making it obvious at all. My opinion is that some of the top tier level design has a strict path on moving forward but lets it up to the player to decide how exactly they want to move down it.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

Indeed. Good procgen can be amazing, but bad procgen feels really half-assed. Derek Yu's Spelunky pretty much single-handedly started the current procgen revolution, and he wrote a book about it. :) https://bossfightbooks.com/products/spelunky-by-derek-yu https://bossfightbooks.com/products/spelunky-by-derek-yu (He also wrote extensively about it in his blog, as I recall, though I don't have a link handy.)

Xelbair 7y ago

I really liked the approach the Dead Cells developers took. They handcrafted tiles, out of which a metroidvania style levels were generated. It consisted of a random graph generation(with constraints), and fitting the handcrafted elements to that graph. It took the best of both worlds - a properly designed levels with tons of replayability.