7 ms·

What does it mean to be genetically Jewish?

19 points by jajag 7y ago

nudq 7y ago
It means you're a Jew. It's the chosen people, not the chosen random punk who "identifies" as a Jew.
gajajg 7y ago
As a sepharadic jew i wonder what would the test look like, i am guessing the people from the south were less secular (a lot of our last names are arabic/spanish or portuguese)
romwell 7y ago
First, an old Soviet joke: -Isaac, we need to get outta here fast, they're beating up the Jews over here -But in my passport, the nationality is listed as "Russian"! -Isaac, you don't get it. They aren't gonna beat up your passport, they're gonna beat up your face! -------------- The question of what it means to be Jewish is complex: it's a mixture of ethnicity (nationality in Soviet passports, which confused people for a long time), religion, and culture. For the most part it's easy, though. I joked with a friend of mine: we don't need to remember being Jewish, others will remember it for us. To that extent, I use the following reductio ad Hitlerum test of whether someone should be considered Jewish: Would the Nazis have rounded that person up for being a Jew?. That makes a lot of these questions simple. Follows Judaism? A Jew. Jewish mother? Clearly. Jewish father? Still a Jew. Self-identifies as a Jew? Clearly a Jew. Looks very Jewish? Better be safe than sorry, a Jew again. So what these Israelis are doing is ridiculous. Someone would be accepted as a Jew in the eyes of anti-semites, but be denied being Jewish at home. It is very sad that Israelis are using DNA testing to do this ridiculous gatekeeping -- and at that, against the part of the population that has done so much for that country (there would be no Israel without Jews from the Russian Empire and USSR to begin with, as simple as that). No prophet in his hometown, I guess.
saagarjha 7y ago
Perhaps I’m not understanding this correctly, but why does genetics matter (I’m not Jewish, so I have very little knowledge of how this works)? Is it not enough for someone to call themselves Jewish to “be” Jewish? Are there some sort of religious or legal consequences to doing so?
- bobcostas55 7y ago
  "Jewish" refers both to ethnic groups and religion.
- romwell 7y ago
  You are correct in your questions. It should be enough, and there should not be legal consequences. The problem is that Israel is a very peculiar theocracy, and one kind of prejudiced against large segments of its population. There are legal consequences of being "officially" Jewish in Israel (just like there were consequences of being officially Jewish in the USSR). For one, "official" Jews are entitled to Israeli citizenship. Then, the marriage in Israel is a can of worms of its own, as there is only religious marriage. See the article. Your Jewishness (or lack thereof) dictates where you will be buried, too. That should be enough to get you started.
laichzeit0 7y ago
The crux for me was this paragraph: “I have deep sympathy for the concern that genetic discoveries could be misused to justify racism,” he wrote. “But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among ‘races’.” There really shouldn't be a debate that there are genetic differences amongst 'races'. It shouldn't be something that is "taboo" to discuss or talk about, since it is a factually correct statement to make.
- romwell 7y ago
  >There really shouldn't be a debate that there are genetic differences amongst 'races'. It shouldn't be something that is "taboo" to discuss or talk about, since it is a factually correct statement to make. I disagree. Who defines what a "race" is? Divide a population into two groups arbitrarily, and you'll find statistical differences. Pick any metric, and you'll get clusters. There are so many data scientists here on HN - so I hope many do understand how sensitive clustering is to the metric, algorithm, and other parameters! And for everyone else: race is like colors in a rainbow. Yes, the rainbow is not monochromatic. And yet there is no division in the continuous spectrum in nature.
  - viklove 7y ago
    > Divide a population into two groups arbitrarily, and you'll find statistical differences. False. If you select individuals for each group through random sampling, you likely won't find significant statistical differences. Also your allegory is fallacious. There is no difference in the adjacent colors in the rainbow, but there is definitely a large and noticeable difference between purple and yellow.
    - romwell 7y ago
      >Also your allegory is fallacious. There is no difference in the adjacent colors in the rainbow, but there is definitely a large and noticeable difference between purple and yellow. This is exactly what the allegory is saying.
- 7y ago
RickJWagner 7y ago
The history of Jews and Christianity is also a fascinating study. It's not appropriate to go into religious issues here, but to anyone with an interest in theology, please consider giving it a look.
jajag 7y ago
Why on earth has this submission been flagged? It's a thoughtful article, by a Jew, of the rights and wrongs of using genetic testing, in Israel, to define Jewishness, and raises a number of interesting questions. What is there to object to?

19 points by jajag 7y ago

nudq 7y ago

It means you're a Jew. It's the chosen people, not the chosen random punk who "identifies" as a Jew.

As a sepharadic jew i wonder what would the test look like, i am guessing the people from the south were less secular (a lot of our last names are arabic/spanish or portuguese)

romwell 7y ago

First, an old Soviet joke: -Isaac, we need to get outta here fast, they're beating up the Jews over here -But in my passport, the nationality is listed as "Russian"! -Isaac, you don't get it. They aren't gonna beat up your passport, they're gonna beat up your face! -------------- The question of what it means to be Jewish is complex: it's a mixture of ethnicity (nationality in Soviet passports, which confused people for a long time), religion, and culture. For the most part it's easy, though. I joked with a friend of mine: we don't need to remember being Jewish, others will remember it for us. To that extent, I use the following reductio ad Hitlerum test of whether someone should be considered Jewish: Would the Nazis have rounded that person up for being a Jew?. That makes a lot of these questions simple. Follows Judaism? A Jew. Jewish mother? Clearly. Jewish father? Still a Jew. Self-identifies as a Jew? Clearly a Jew. Looks very Jewish? Better be safe than sorry, a Jew again. So what these Israelis are doing is ridiculous. Someone would be accepted as a Jew in the eyes of anti-semites, but be denied being Jewish at home. It is very sad that Israelis are using DNA testing to do this ridiculous gatekeeping -- and at that, against the part of the population that has done so much for that country (there would be no Israel without Jews from the Russian Empire and USSR to begin with, as simple as that). No prophet in his hometown, I guess.

saagarjha 7y ago

Perhaps I’m not understanding this correctly, but why does genetics matter (I’m not Jewish, so I have very little knowledge of how this works)? Is it not enough for someone to call themselves Jewish to “be” Jewish? Are there some sort of religious or legal consequences to doing so?

bobcostas55 7y ago
"Jewish" refers both to ethnic groups and religion.
romwell 7y ago
You are correct in your questions. It should be enough, and there should not be legal consequences. The problem is that Israel is a very peculiar theocracy, and one kind of prejudiced against large segments of its population. There are legal consequences of being "officially" Jewish in Israel (just like there were consequences of being officially Jewish in the USSR). For one, "official" Jews are entitled to Israeli citizenship. Then, the marriage in Israel is a can of worms of its own, as there is only religious marriage. See the article. Your Jewishness (or lack thereof) dictates where you will be buried, too. That should be enough to get you started.

laichzeit0 7y ago

The crux for me was this paragraph: “I have deep sympathy for the concern that genetic discoveries could be misused to justify racism,” he wrote. “But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among ‘races’.” There really shouldn't be a debate that there are genetic differences amongst 'races'. It shouldn't be something that is "taboo" to discuss or talk about, since it is a factually correct statement to make.

romwell 7y ago
>There really shouldn't be a debate that there are genetic differences amongst 'races'. It shouldn't be something that is "taboo" to discuss or talk about, since it is a factually correct statement to make. I disagree. Who defines what a "race" is? Divide a population into two groups arbitrarily, and you'll find statistical differences. Pick any metric, and you'll get clusters. There are so many data scientists here on HN - so I hope many do understand how sensitive clustering is to the metric, algorithm, and other parameters! And for everyone else: race is like colors in a rainbow. Yes, the rainbow is not monochromatic. And yet there is no division in the continuous spectrum in nature.
- viklove 7y ago
  > Divide a population into two groups arbitrarily, and you'll find statistical differences. False. If you select individuals for each group through random sampling, you likely won't find significant statistical differences. Also your allegory is fallacious. There is no difference in the adjacent colors in the rainbow, but there is definitely a large and noticeable difference between purple and yellow.
  - romwell 7y ago
    >Also your allegory is fallacious. There is no difference in the adjacent colors in the rainbow, but there is definitely a large and noticeable difference between purple and yellow. This is exactly what the allegory is saying.
7y ago

RickJWagner 7y ago

The history of Jews and Christianity is also a fascinating study. It's not appropriate to go into religious issues here, but to anyone with an interest in theology, please consider giving it a look.

jajag 7y ago

Why on earth has this submission been flagged? It's a thoughtful article, by a Jew, of the rights and wrongs of using genetic testing, in Israel, to define Jewishness, and raises a number of interesting questions. What is there to object to?