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Handful of interesting points: a) Scoot raised something like $47,000,000. This article reports a cash and stock deal of $25,000,000. b) Scoot launched in 201

Handful of interesting points: a) Scoot raised something like $47,000,000. This article reports a cash and stock deal of $25,000,000. b) Scoot launched in 2012 and spent their first 6 years renting mopeds and electric bikes, only recently launching what we all think of as "scooters" in late 2018. c) The founder illustrates what Scoot saw as a gigantic problem in the space - theft and vandalism (1). He then wrote a follow-up post a few months later illustrating their solution - a proprietary lock adapter from their bike sharing network (2). I wonder if we'll see this technology rolled out @ Bird? (1) https://medium.com/@mbkeating/what-we-learned-from-our-first-month-of-operating-scoot-kicks-dcd9a677db15 https://medium.com/@mbkeating/what-we-learned-from-our-first... (2) https://medium.com/@mbkeating/one-of-our-kicks-was-stolen-last-weekend-8cfdf94979b6 https://medium.com/@mbkeating/one-of-our-kicks-was-stolen-la...

dcolkitt 7y ago
> The founder illustrates what Scoot saw as a gigantic problem in the space - theft and vandalism Is this actually a serious impediment to the scooter business model? Bulk electric scooters can be sourced from Chinese manufacturers for <$200. The ride sharing services charge $0.15/minute. You breakeven in 24 hours of ride time. Assuming 30% utilization during peak hours and 10% off hours, the payback time is less than two weeks of deployment. You'd have to expect 5-10% of your fleet to be vandalized/stolen every day, before it breaks the margins.
- TallGuyShort 7y ago
  Their costs are higher than just the scooters. Not intimately familiar with either business, but I'd expect the scooters themselves to be on of the smaller costs. The infrastructure to charge them I'd expect to be one of the bigger ones, at least early on. Maybe on an on-going basis if that requires people to go retrieve scooters, etc. And I'd want a proprietary lock long before theft had actually eliminated my entire margin.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - neodypsis 7y ago
    Also, don't forget the telecom costs.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  The Information reported they (Bird) were paying $551 with a goal of reducing it to $360 per scooter. The unit economics are pretty atrocious, tbh. These scooters aren't designed for continuous operation out in the wild, for the average American girth, on anything other than a flat surface -- so they break a lot. The average lifespan is 32 days (median 28) -- and only goes 85 miles over 70 trips. Average is 1.63 miles per trip, 18 minutes long, and 3.49 rides per day on average. That's why scooter rides are so expensive compared to JUMP, for instance. [1] Some napkin math indicates they lose (at minimum) $267 per scooter. [1] https://www.theinformation.com/articles/inside-birds-scooter-economics https://www.theinformation.com/articles/inside-birds-scooter...
  - knur 7y ago
    This was true back then, when Bird and most other companies were using m365 and esx scooters. The newer generation of scooters is way more durable, and have better battery life. The reality now with scooters like the Bird Zero is that churn is at least 10 months, which is more than enough to pay the vehicle and operational cost 7.5x Disclaimer: I work in this space.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Interesting, though this slice/dice of the data [1] figuring in all known expense quantities show that they only make a net of $2.32 per day in Louisville. Even if we take 10 months that's still just under $700. Those economics do look a lot better, but don't more durable/beefier scooters cost more? I'm not seeing a way to get 7.5X back no matter how the numbers are finagled. Curious how they know the scooters will last 10 months when new versions can't have been out in the wild in quantity for more than a single quarter. To be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just hoping to learn more about whether it has yet. [1] https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
- nerfhammer 7y ago
  Scoot was primarily renting out full-size street-legal mopeds that you need a driver's license to drive, not the little $200 scooter things that you stand on.
  - taneq 7y ago
    Did they come with helmets? Or not require them?
    - nerfhammer 7y ago
      they came with helmets
- rockinghigh 7y ago
  They also pay people to charge the scooters.
  - neodypsis 7y ago
    I've seen people in México City doing this late at night. I wonder if they are aware of the real costs of their services. Also, do they only pick scooters below a certain battery level? I observed one crew that picked one but left the other one next to it.
    - rockinghigh 7y ago
      They have algorithms to pick which scooters should be moved and charged and compute a price to pay the people who charge them. You ideally want all your scooters to be fully charged before rush hour in the morning.
      - Jommi 7y ago
        This also depends on the market. Not all cities have worked out with the freelancer charging model.
- Jommi 7y ago
  Youre completely off with your assumptions. Source: Work in the industry.
  - taneq 7y ago
    Care to enlighten us? I've always thought the scooters-as-a-service business model seemed bonkers but apparently a lot of people (including yourself?) disagree, so what am I missing?
    - Jommi 7y ago
      No at the moment I am quite sure it is absolutely bonkers, and this acquisition for much lower than the "valuation" gives some support for that. However there are some potential caveats which could turn the whole game around. The thing is that when doing scooter profitability calculus, there are few inputs that when changed can have a massive effect. Some of these could be: Scooter durability, Scooter Battery life, Effect of theft & vandalism, cost of charging.
microdrum 7y ago
This low acquisition price might make you think: Bird got an awesome deal. But it should also make you think: Bird isn't worth much. Scooter and bike rental companies aren't worth much. They never have been.
- knur 7y ago
  Scoot operated, poorly, in a very small market. Look at Bird or Lime, they operate literally in hundreds of cities. In the hypothetical case that they were buying Lime instead, the number would be at least 50 times bigger.
  - andrei_says_ 7y ago
    How does losing money on a larger scale lead to profit?
    - knur 7y ago
      I don't know, man. Ask Uber, lol
    - serf 7y ago
      because it's an indicator of future profit stemming from growth that may be the cause of the spending. it doesn't always work out that way, but it has sometimes in the past for big payouts, so it's a common strategy and economic forecast indicator.
    - broknbottle 7y ago
      you gotta burn cash to grow. Maybe this will lead to bird developing Bird Web Services and eventually making a ton of money each quarter. It worked for Amazon :)
      - braythwayt 7y ago
        Burning cash to grow worked for Amazon because distribution/logistics is a business that has a fundamental relationship between scale and costs. Bird, Scoot, Uber, Lyft and everybody else has yet to demonstrate that by scaling dramatically that they lower their costs enough to break even, much less generate SaaS margins. Until then... They are highly speculative businesses.
mjg59 7y ago
Bird has already started rolling out Bluetooth-based locks in some markets. They're kind of a hack - they're separate Bluetooth devices that are bolted onto the stem, and the unlock step is separate from the scooter unlock step.
- samstave 7y ago
  Its too fucking bad that barnaby jack was killed by the cia: i would have loved to see him havk these methods of transport...
ravenstine 7y ago
Maybe, but I'm pretty sure that the newest generation of Bird scooters are more difficult to hardwire. As far as I'm aware, nobody has done so yet, but most of them are still older generation and can be easily have their circuit boards replaced with ones for Xiaomi scooters(basically Bird scooters but without Bird's SIM card or GPS). Vandalism is a far bigger problem for them, though, since most people don't have the skills(or rather the confidence) to hotwire a Bird scooter.
- asdff 7y ago
  I read the average life on these scooters is 30 days before they are completely wrecked. People don't need to hotwire them to take them; I've seen teenagers riding them while locked and just pushing them along un powered, scooter beeping away.
  - ravenstine 7y ago
    That's interesting, because I know that Lime's scooters have their front wheel locked when not in ride-mode. (though thieves can basically just lift up the front wheel and push it away on the back one) I had no idea kids were just pushing away Bird scooters! I guess it makes sense the Bird scooters don't lock because the Xiaomi scooters they use are cheaper than comparable ones made by Segway, which is what Lime uses. Bird probably just decided it wasn't worth deterring thieves, at least initially. I don't have much sympathy for these scooter companies, though, since their MO is to illegally dump scooters in cities and beg for forgiveness later. I've found no information at all on how the wrecked scooters get recycled. You can't necessarily just repair scooters infinitely, and I imagine a lot of them just go into a dumpster because it's cheaper just to buy more scooters from Xiaomi.
  - Jommi 7y ago
    This lifetime estimate is based on one town in the US. It can be wildly different in different markets.

dcolkitt 7y ago

> The founder illustrates what Scoot saw as a gigantic problem in the space - theft and vandalism Is this actually a serious impediment to the scooter business model? Bulk electric scooters can be sourced from Chinese manufacturers for <$200. The ride sharing services charge $0.15/minute. You breakeven in 24 hours of ride time. Assuming 30% utilization during peak hours and 10% off hours, the payback time is less than two weeks of deployment. You'd have to expect 5-10% of your fleet to be vandalized/stolen every day, before it breaks the margins.

TallGuyShort 7y ago
Their costs are higher than just the scooters. Not intimately familiar with either business, but I'd expect the scooters themselves to be on of the smaller costs. The infrastructure to charge them I'd expect to be one of the bigger ones, at least early on. Maybe on an on-going basis if that requires people to go retrieve scooters, etc. And I'd want a proprietary lock long before theft had actually eliminated my entire margin.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- neodypsis 7y ago
  Also, don't forget the telecom costs.
arcticbull 7y ago
The Information reported they (Bird) were paying $551 with a goal of reducing it to $360 per scooter. The unit economics are pretty atrocious, tbh. These scooters aren't designed for continuous operation out in the wild, for the average American girth, on anything other than a flat surface -- so they break a lot. The average lifespan is 32 days (median 28) -- and only goes 85 miles over 70 trips. Average is 1.63 miles per trip, 18 minutes long, and 3.49 rides per day on average. That's why scooter rides are so expensive compared to JUMP, for instance. [1] Some napkin math indicates they lose (at minimum) $267 per scooter. [1] https://www.theinformation.com/articles/inside-birds-scooter-economics https://www.theinformation.com/articles/inside-birds-scooter...
- knur 7y ago
  This was true back then, when Bird and most other companies were using m365 and esx scooters. The newer generation of scooters is way more durable, and have better battery life. The reality now with scooters like the Bird Zero is that churn is at least 10 months, which is more than enough to pay the vehicle and operational cost 7.5x Disclaimer: I work in this space.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Interesting, though this slice/dice of the data [1] figuring in all known expense quantities show that they only make a net of $2.32 per day in Louisville. Even if we take 10 months that's still just under $700. Those economics do look a lot better, but don't more durable/beefier scooters cost more? I'm not seeing a way to get 7.5X back no matter how the numbers are finagled. Curious how they know the scooters will last 10 months when new versions can't have been out in the wild in quantity for more than a single quarter. To be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just hoping to learn more about whether it has yet. [1] https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
nerfhammer 7y ago
Scoot was primarily renting out full-size street-legal mopeds that you need a driver's license to drive, not the little $200 scooter things that you stand on.
- taneq 7y ago
  Did they come with helmets? Or not require them?
  - nerfhammer 7y ago
    they came with helmets
rockinghigh 7y ago
They also pay people to charge the scooters.
- neodypsis 7y ago
  I've seen people in México City doing this late at night. I wonder if they are aware of the real costs of their services. Also, do they only pick scooters below a certain battery level? I observed one crew that picked one but left the other one next to it.
  - rockinghigh 7y ago
    They have algorithms to pick which scooters should be moved and charged and compute a price to pay the people who charge them. You ideally want all your scooters to be fully charged before rush hour in the morning.
    - Jommi 7y ago
      This also depends on the market. Not all cities have worked out with the freelancer charging model.
Jommi 7y ago
Youre completely off with your assumptions. Source: Work in the industry.
- taneq 7y ago
  Care to enlighten us? I've always thought the scooters-as-a-service business model seemed bonkers but apparently a lot of people (including yourself?) disagree, so what am I missing?
  - Jommi 7y ago
    No at the moment I am quite sure it is absolutely bonkers, and this acquisition for much lower than the "valuation" gives some support for that. However there are some potential caveats which could turn the whole game around. The thing is that when doing scooter profitability calculus, there are few inputs that when changed can have a massive effect. Some of these could be: Scooter durability, Scooter Battery life, Effect of theft & vandalism, cost of charging.

microdrum 7y ago

This low acquisition price might make you think: Bird got an awesome deal. But it should also make you think: Bird isn't worth much. Scooter and bike rental companies aren't worth much. They never have been.

knur 7y ago
Scoot operated, poorly, in a very small market. Look at Bird or Lime, they operate literally in hundreds of cities. In the hypothetical case that they were buying Lime instead, the number would be at least 50 times bigger.
- andrei_says_ 7y ago
  How does losing money on a larger scale lead to profit?
  - knur 7y ago
    I don't know, man. Ask Uber, lol
  - serf 7y ago
    because it's an indicator of future profit stemming from growth that may be the cause of the spending. it doesn't always work out that way, but it has sometimes in the past for big payouts, so it's a common strategy and economic forecast indicator.
  - broknbottle 7y ago
    you gotta burn cash to grow. Maybe this will lead to bird developing Bird Web Services and eventually making a ton of money each quarter. It worked for Amazon :)
    - braythwayt 7y ago
      Burning cash to grow worked for Amazon because distribution/logistics is a business that has a fundamental relationship between scale and costs. Bird, Scoot, Uber, Lyft and everybody else has yet to demonstrate that by scaling dramatically that they lower their costs enough to break even, much less generate SaaS margins. Until then... They are highly speculative businesses.

mjg59 7y ago

Bird has already started rolling out Bluetooth-based locks in some markets. They're kind of a hack - they're separate Bluetooth devices that are bolted onto the stem, and the unlock step is separate from the scooter unlock step.

samstave 7y ago
Its too fucking bad that barnaby jack was killed by the cia: i would have loved to see him havk these methods of transport...

ravenstine 7y ago

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure that the newest generation of Bird scooters are more difficult to hardwire. As far as I'm aware, nobody has done so yet, but most of them are still older generation and can be easily have their circuit boards replaced with ones for Xiaomi scooters(basically Bird scooters but without Bird's SIM card or GPS). Vandalism is a far bigger problem for them, though, since most people don't have the skills(or rather the confidence) to hotwire a Bird scooter.

asdff 7y ago
I read the average life on these scooters is 30 days before they are completely wrecked. People don't need to hotwire them to take them; I've seen teenagers riding them while locked and just pushing them along un powered, scooter beeping away.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  That's interesting, because I know that Lime's scooters have their front wheel locked when not in ride-mode. (though thieves can basically just lift up the front wheel and push it away on the back one) I had no idea kids were just pushing away Bird scooters! I guess it makes sense the Bird scooters don't lock because the Xiaomi scooters they use are cheaper than comparable ones made by Segway, which is what Lime uses. Bird probably just decided it wasn't worth deterring thieves, at least initially. I don't have much sympathy for these scooter companies, though, since their MO is to illegally dump scooters in cities and beg for forgiveness later. I've found no information at all on how the wrecked scooters get recycled. You can't necessarily just repair scooters infinitely, and I imagine a lot of them just go into a dumpster because it's cheaper just to buy more scooters from Xiaomi.
- Jommi 7y ago
  This lifetime estimate is based on one town in the US. It can be wildly different in different markets.