6 ms·

Ultimately, China owns Hong Kong and will subsume Hong Kong sooner or later. What leverage does HK have besides taking to the streets every few years? (https://

by msvan 7y ago

Ultimately, China owns Hong Kong and will subsume Hong Kong sooner or later. What leverage does HK have besides taking to the streets every few years? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests)

kevin_b_er 7y ago
Because the Hong Kongers had a belief in Basic Law. They had a belief in the universal human right to that No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. This the Communist Party of China rejects. The Hong Kongers believe that All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination. This the Communist Party of China rejects. They believe that Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association. This the Communist Party of China rejects. They make these protests because they stand for human rights that the CPC rejects. They wish to make it known to the CPC and to the world what they stand for. They may eventually fall to the cruelty of the CPC, but not just yet.
- sverige 7y ago
  The trouble is that the Hong Kongers who could do something about it relocated to Vancouver twenty years ago.
derefr 7y ago
Mostly: trade relationships other countries have that are specifically relationships with Hong Kong, rather than with China generally; where, sometimes, those other nations aren't even interested in trading with China generally, only with Hong Kong specifically. To the degree that China wants to maintain these relationships (and capture the GDP they represent), they treat Hong Kong as a peer. To the degree that China has built replacements for these relationships, they treat Hong Kong as a vassal.
malandrew 7y ago
At this point, the only thing I can think of that might work is a scorched earth policy like Switzerland has but they need to be ready willing and able to carry it out. All the businesses that can move to another country should start doing so now.
- mintplant 7y ago
  > a scorched earth policy like Switzerland has I'm not sure what this refers to, and I'm having trouble finding anything about it. Could you clarify?
  - kodz4 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland)
  - malandrew 7y ago
    Lots of explosives on critical infrastructure like bridges and tunnels. I just looked it up and it looks like they removed the last of them a few years ago so it's no longer a thing. Anyways, besides nuclear deterrence, a suicide pact is about the only thing I could think would work as defense against a major global military power.
- permatech 7y ago
  Tell me more about Switzerland's scorched earth policy
  - baybal2 7y ago
    > Tell me more about Switzerland's scorched earth policy Self-sabotage, mostly through destruction of critical transport infrastructure as front advances. The only thing I can come with HK, it is it being played in Lamma channel, if it can be blocked by scuttled ships. If HK want to go that way, it will not win much things other than time. If PLA will really launch an operation, it only has to turn off water pumps, and wait.
nabla9 7y ago
Rule of law and the independence of the judiciary. Mainland China has no independent juridical system. Only reason to establish business there is if your business does something in China and you have to be there. You never use it as financial or business center for the operations in elsewhere. The success of Hong Kong and Singapore is based on good legal framework. They are ranked among the best judicial systems in Asia. Businesses feels safe run business from there. Abu Dhabi financial center decided to emulate them. They created fully independent common law framework to adjudicate civil and commercial disputes. It's possible that China decides to get rid of the law, but it will eventually bite them back financially.
- Terr_ 7y ago
  I think it's a telling statistic that since the handover, Hong Kong has gone from 18% of China's GDP to 3%. Granted, some of that may be the mainland playing games with GDP numbers, but HK isn't quite the same indispensable a golden-goose anymore. [0] https://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6857567/hong-kong-used-to-be-18-percent-of-chinas-gdp-now-its-3-percent https://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6857567/hong-kong-used-to-be-1...
  - nabla9 7y ago
    10% of Chinese exports are to HK. HK is tiny. The importance of HK for China is in international trade and finance.
  - iav 7y ago
    I think Beijing cares about how the people of Taiwan perceive Hong Kong’s autonomy within China. If Taiwan views Beijing as a repressive regime then the independence movement would gain popularity.
    - eric-hu 7y ago
      > If Taiwan views Beijing as a repressive regime then the independence movement would gain popularity. Is this even a question anymore? It seems like a given that Taiwan views Beijing as repressive, and the political differences in Taiwan are over how to deal with that reality: fight it or don't rock the boat. What I wonder is what happens when China realizes it has nothing to gain by feigning acceptance of one country with two systems.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> What leverage does HK have besides taking to the streets every few years? Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN. The protesters just need to get the population in a G7 country pissed off enough to turn this bill into an international issue, thereby increasing the cost of its introduction to Beijing.
- dmitrygr 7y ago
  > Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN. Oh how I wish this mattered, but the UN has time and time again proven itself to be the world's most expensive essay-writing club and little more. What exactly are they going to do?
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > What exactly are they going to do? Nothing. As you said, the UN is toothless. What having an agreement lodged with the UN does is properly escalate this into an international issue. That makes it easier for governments to react. Those reactions could be harshly-worded statements, diplomatic mediation or even the threat of sanctions.
  - kazen44 7y ago
    People seem to mistake the UN for what is truely meant to be. The UN is not some government which can enforce agreements. Its mainly a "meeting room" for global and local powers to resolve conflict if they wish. At the end of the day, this is still hugely important to prevent unnecessary war or conflict, but the UN is still bound by the actual realities on the ground, not the legal framework that sits above the reality.
    - fdjlasdfjl 7y ago
      Absolutely. The League of Nations failed explicitly because Italy and Japan told everyone else to fuck off. The UN Security Council is the only real teeth which is why every superpower has a seat at the table. Its for fucking poor nations and nothing else.
  - 7y ago

by msvan 7y ago

kevin_b_er 7y ago

Because the Hong Kongers had a belief in Basic Law. They had a belief in the universal human right to that No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. This the Communist Party of China rejects. The Hong Kongers believe that All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination. This the Communist Party of China rejects. They believe that Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association. This the Communist Party of China rejects. They make these protests because they stand for human rights that the CPC rejects. They wish to make it known to the CPC and to the world what they stand for. They may eventually fall to the cruelty of the CPC, but not just yet.

sverige 7y ago
The trouble is that the Hong Kongers who could do something about it relocated to Vancouver twenty years ago.

derefr 7y ago

Mostly: trade relationships other countries have that are specifically relationships with Hong Kong, rather than with China generally; where, sometimes, those other nations aren't even interested in trading with China generally, only with Hong Kong specifically. To the degree that China wants to maintain these relationships (and capture the GDP they represent), they treat Hong Kong as a peer. To the degree that China has built replacements for these relationships, they treat Hong Kong as a vassal.

malandrew 7y ago

At this point, the only thing I can think of that might work is a scorched earth policy like Switzerland has but they need to be ready willing and able to carry it out. All the businesses that can move to another country should start doing so now.

mintplant 7y ago
> a scorched earth policy like Switzerland has I'm not sure what this refers to, and I'm having trouble finding anything about it. Could you clarify?
- kodz4 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland)
- malandrew 7y ago
  Lots of explosives on critical infrastructure like bridges and tunnels. I just looked it up and it looks like they removed the last of them a few years ago so it's no longer a thing. Anyways, besides nuclear deterrence, a suicide pact is about the only thing I could think would work as defense against a major global military power.
permatech 7y ago
Tell me more about Switzerland's scorched earth policy
- baybal2 7y ago
  > Tell me more about Switzerland's scorched earth policy Self-sabotage, mostly through destruction of critical transport infrastructure as front advances. The only thing I can come with HK, it is it being played in Lamma channel, if it can be blocked by scuttled ships. If HK want to go that way, it will not win much things other than time. If PLA will really launch an operation, it only has to turn off water pumps, and wait.

nabla9 7y ago

Rule of law and the independence of the judiciary. Mainland China has no independent juridical system. Only reason to establish business there is if your business does something in China and you have to be there. You never use it as financial or business center for the operations in elsewhere. The success of Hong Kong and Singapore is based on good legal framework. They are ranked among the best judicial systems in Asia. Businesses feels safe run business from there. Abu Dhabi financial center decided to emulate them. They created fully independent common law framework to adjudicate civil and commercial disputes. It's possible that China decides to get rid of the law, but it will eventually bite them back financially.

Terr_ 7y ago
I think it's a telling statistic that since the handover, Hong Kong has gone from 18% of China's GDP to 3%. Granted, some of that may be the mainland playing games with GDP numbers, but HK isn't quite the same indispensable a golden-goose anymore. [0] https://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6857567/hong-kong-used-to-be-18-percent-of-chinas-gdp-now-its-3-percent https://www.vox.com/2014/9/28/6857567/hong-kong-used-to-be-1...
- nabla9 7y ago
  10% of Chinese exports are to HK. HK is tiny. The importance of HK for China is in international trade and finance.
- iav 7y ago
  I think Beijing cares about how the people of Taiwan perceive Hong Kong’s autonomy within China. If Taiwan views Beijing as a repressive regime then the independence movement would gain popularity.
  - eric-hu 7y ago
    > If Taiwan views Beijing as a repressive regime then the independence movement would gain popularity. Is this even a question anymore? It seems like a given that Taiwan views Beijing as repressive, and the political differences in Taiwan are over how to deal with that reality: fight it or don't rock the boat. What I wonder is what happens when China realizes it has nothing to gain by feigning acceptance of one country with two systems.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> What leverage does HK have besides taking to the streets every few years? Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN. The protesters just need to get the population in a G7 country pissed off enough to turn this bill into an international issue, thereby increasing the cost of its introduction to Beijing.

dmitrygr 7y ago
> Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN. Oh how I wish this mattered, but the UN has time and time again proven itself to be the world's most expensive essay-writing club and little more. What exactly are they going to do?
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > What exactly are they going to do? Nothing. As you said, the UN is toothless. What having an agreement lodged with the UN does is properly escalate this into an international issue. That makes it easier for governments to react. Those reactions could be harshly-worded statements, diplomatic mediation or even the threat of sanctions.
- kazen44 7y ago
  People seem to mistake the UN for what is truely meant to be. The UN is not some government which can enforce agreements. Its mainly a "meeting room" for global and local powers to resolve conflict if they wish. At the end of the day, this is still hugely important to prevent unnecessary war or conflict, but the UN is still bound by the actual realities on the ground, not the legal framework that sits above the reality.
  - fdjlasdfjl 7y ago
    Absolutely. The League of Nations failed explicitly because Italy and Japan told everyone else to fuck off. The UN Security Council is the only real teeth which is why every superpower has a seat at the table. Its for fucking poor nations and nothing else.
- 7y ago