5 ms·

That’s an entirely separate issue to what this post is about though. This is about making drug use legal.

SkyBelow 7y ago
Not really. The original post said the following. >But I think a community must have ways to discourage or push people out of the public sphere who practice unwelcome and unsocial behavior. The point is, in much of even modern day US, and even more so in the past, just existing as a transgender individual who doesn't attempt to pass is deemed by a significant portion of society as unwelcome and unsocial. When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  > When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable. No one is tying discrimination to the issue though. It’s 100% about public health. See my examples about dirty needles and crack smoke.
- aisenik 7y ago
  Your quote is exactly what I was responding to, but I would say my point is that solutions have externalities and if you provide a framework for social exclusion it will be used against the people least able to support and protect themselves.
- creycrey 7y ago
  The entire point of the law is define what is unacceptable behavior. You're reading too much into the comment to the point that it is trolling.
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    There are many forms of unacceptable behavior that do not make it into law. Back in sociology class they mentioned three categories, though I don't know if these days they are used. Laws are the strongest, the ones which we agree to directly take action against people who break these rules. That could be a fine. That could be years in prison. Morals or mores are the second, where we will tend to exclude people and openly speak against them, but not take direct action. What actually constitutes a social more is quite hard to define as they aren't written down as laws, often change, and often are based in part on things we don't want to admit (such as having built in racism or sexism). In parts of the US, being openly transgender is against the exist social mores. The last is folkways, where we generally have an accepted way of doing things but not really one we have openly agreed upon, and upon breaking it we don't have any socially agreed upon response. These are the weakest and are things that are more weird than wrong. A man having long hair would qualify as breaking a folkway in parts of the US. Why do I bring this up? Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. They likely won't succeed, but even the punishments for breaking social mores can be drastic. The law is not the end all definition of socially unacceptable behavior, and it is a given fact that some portions of US society deems being openly transgender as against social mores. To call this out is not trolling.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      > Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. What does it mean to make transgenderism illegal? In the US it would not be possible to legislate someone's appearance or how they choose to identify.
      - SkyBelow 7y ago
        While they can't just pass a law that outright bans it as a court would quickly strike it down, there are a lot of smaller laws they can pass to make it much worse. Make it illegal for people to change their birth certificate. Make it so that all laws apply based on their original birth certificate, regardless of any changes having been made in other states or countries. Make it illegal to use facilities meant for the opposite gender. Expand fraud to include claiming and presenting as a gender not on their birth certificate, specifically when the other party is paying (yes, this could run into free speech issues). Legally declare it to be a mental illness (much like how federal law declares marijuana to have no medical value, actually being aligned with existing science is not required). Passing laws banning any form of transitioning involving minors. Pass laws introducing trans-panic as an affirmative defense for assault or homicide. Laws that prevent adoption by trans individuals (to the extent the state can do so). I'm sure law makers spending months can come up with far worse laws that I could in 5 minutes.
3131s 7y ago
The point is that what people find to be "socially unacceptable" in public is totally arbitrary. Why do you all really care if I smoke crack in public?
- malvosenior 7y ago
  Health is not arbitrary. Why do I care if you smoke crack in public? Because I don’t want to breathe your second hand crack smoke. I’m shocked that this point is being lost in the discussion as it seems quite obvious.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    what if they do it in a designated smoking area?
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      Still not good enough: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/protection/ventilation/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/seco...
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        that link is about second hand smoke indoors. I wasn't specific, but I meant outdoors.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I question that the needed ventilation and filtering systems would be worth the cost. Also, crack makes people kinda crazy, no? Do you really want rooms full of people smoking crack everywhere? I know I'm talking about second hand smoke (which would be awful) but there are tons of other reasons this is a bad idea.
        7y ago

Not really. The original post said the following. >But I think a community must have ways to discourage or push people out of the public sphere who practice unwelcome and unsocial behavior. The point is, in much of even modern day US, and even more so in the past, just existing as a transgender individual who doesn't attempt to pass is deemed by a significant portion of society as unwelcome and unsocial. When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable.

malvosenior 7y ago
> When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable. No one is tying discrimination to the issue though. It’s 100% about public health. See my examples about dirty needles and crack smoke.
aisenik 7y ago
Your quote is exactly what I was responding to, but I would say my point is that solutions have externalities and if you provide a framework for social exclusion it will be used against the people least able to support and protect themselves.
creycrey 7y ago
The entire point of the law is define what is unacceptable behavior. You're reading too much into the comment to the point that it is trolling.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  There are many forms of unacceptable behavior that do not make it into law. Back in sociology class they mentioned three categories, though I don't know if these days they are used. Laws are the strongest, the ones which we agree to directly take action against people who break these rules. That could be a fine. That could be years in prison. Morals or mores are the second, where we will tend to exclude people and openly speak against them, but not take direct action. What actually constitutes a social more is quite hard to define as they aren't written down as laws, often change, and often are based in part on things we don't want to admit (such as having built in racism or sexism). In parts of the US, being openly transgender is against the exist social mores. The last is folkways, where we generally have an accepted way of doing things but not really one we have openly agreed upon, and upon breaking it we don't have any socially agreed upon response. These are the weakest and are things that are more weird than wrong. A man having long hair would qualify as breaking a folkway in parts of the US. Why do I bring this up? Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. They likely won't succeed, but even the punishments for breaking social mores can be drastic. The law is not the end all definition of socially unacceptable behavior, and it is a given fact that some portions of US society deems being openly transgender as against social mores. To call this out is not trolling.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    > Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. What does it mean to make transgenderism illegal? In the US it would not be possible to legislate someone's appearance or how they choose to identify.
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      While they can't just pass a law that outright bans it as a court would quickly strike it down, there are a lot of smaller laws they can pass to make it much worse. Make it illegal for people to change their birth certificate. Make it so that all laws apply based on their original birth certificate, regardless of any changes having been made in other states or countries. Make it illegal to use facilities meant for the opposite gender. Expand fraud to include claiming and presenting as a gender not on their birth certificate, specifically when the other party is paying (yes, this could run into free speech issues). Legally declare it to be a mental illness (much like how federal law declares marijuana to have no medical value, actually being aligned with existing science is not required). Passing laws banning any form of transitioning involving minors. Pass laws introducing trans-panic as an affirmative defense for assault or homicide. Laws that prevent adoption by trans individuals (to the extent the state can do so). I'm sure law makers spending months can come up with far worse laws that I could in 5 minutes.

3131s 7y ago

The point is that what people find to be "socially unacceptable" in public is totally arbitrary. Why do you all really care if I smoke crack in public?

malvosenior 7y ago
Health is not arbitrary. Why do I care if you smoke crack in public? Because I don’t want to breathe your second hand crack smoke. I’m shocked that this point is being lost in the discussion as it seems quite obvious.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  what if they do it in a designated smoking area?
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    Still not good enough: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/protection/ventilation/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/seco...
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      that link is about second hand smoke indoors. I wasn't specific, but I meant outdoors.
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        I question that the needed ventilation and filtering systems would be worth the cost. Also, crack makes people kinda crazy, no? Do you really want rooms full of people smoking crack everywhere? I know I'm talking about second hand smoke (which would be awful) but there are tons of other reasons this is a bad idea.
        7y ago