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I don't think you being transgender relates at all to what the parent post was saying. No one wants to watch someone shoot up heroin on the sidewalk (and potent

I don't think you being transgender relates at all to what the parent post was saying. No one wants to watch someone shoot up heroin on the sidewalk (and potentially step on a dirty needle). No one wants to second hand smoke crack. It's a public safety issue to move some of these activities out of public spaces. I'm not even commenting on whether these things should be legal in private, but there are very good reasons they shouldn't be allowed in public.

aisenik 7y ago
Okay, so, guys. People literally think i'm a child molester. People like my dad. People like the two guys who assaulted me for absolutely no reason, in public, while no bystanders did anything whatsoever (as a trans woman, i'm glad he police weren't called -- my friends have been arrested and charged in similar circumstances). Get out of your bubble.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  That’s an entirely separate issue to what this post is about though. This is about making drug use legal.
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    Not really. The original post said the following. >But I think a community must have ways to discourage or push people out of the public sphere who practice unwelcome and unsocial behavior. The point is, in much of even modern day US, and even more so in the past, just existing as a transgender individual who doesn't attempt to pass is deemed by a significant portion of society as unwelcome and unsocial. When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      > When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable. No one is tying discrimination to the issue though. It’s 100% about public health. See my examples about dirty needles and crack smoke.
    - aisenik 7y ago
      Your quote is exactly what I was responding to, but I would say my point is that solutions have externalities and if you provide a framework for social exclusion it will be used against the people least able to support and protect themselves.
    - creycrey 7y ago
      The entire point of the law is define what is unacceptable behavior. You're reading too much into the comment to the point that it is trolling.
      - SkyBelow 7y ago
        There are many forms of unacceptable behavior that do not make it into law. Back in sociology class they mentioned three categories, though I don't know if these days they are used. Laws are the strongest, the ones which we agree to directly take action against people who break these rules. That could be a fine. That could be years in prison. Morals or mores are the second, where we will tend to exclude people and openly speak against them, but not take direct action. What actually constitutes a social more is quite hard to define as they aren't written down as laws, often change, and often are based in part on things we don't want to admit (such as having built in racism or sexism). In parts of the US, being openly transgender is against the exist social mores. The last is folkways, where we generally have an accepted way of doing things but not really one we have openly agreed upon, and upon breaking it we don't have any socially agreed upon response. These are the weakest and are things that are more weird than wrong. A man having long hair would qualify as breaking a folkway in parts of the US. Why do I bring this up? Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. They likely won't succeed, but even the punishments for breaking social mores can be drastic. The law is not the end all definition of socially unacceptable behavior, and it is a given fact that some portions of US society deems being openly transgender as against social mores. To call this out is not trolling.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        > Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. What does it mean to make transgenderism illegal? In the US it would not be possible to legislate someone's appearance or how they choose to identify.
  - 3131s 7y ago
    The point is that what people find to be "socially unacceptable" in public is totally arbitrary. Why do you all really care if I smoke crack in public?
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      Health is not arbitrary. Why do I care if you smoke crack in public? Because I don’t want to breathe your second hand crack smoke. I’m shocked that this point is being lost in the discussion as it seems quite obvious.
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        what if they do it in a designated smoking area?
        malvosenior 7y ago
        Still not good enough: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/protection/ventilation/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/seco...
        leetcrew 7y ago
        that link is about second hand smoke indoors. I wasn't specific, but I meant outdoors.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I question that the needed ventilation and filtering systems would be worth the cost. Also, crack makes people kinda crazy, no? Do you really want rooms full of people smoking crack everywhere? I know I'm talking about second hand smoke (which would be awful) but there are tons of other reasons this is a bad idea.
        7y ago
- nitwit005 7y ago
  I think you're misinterpreting the grandparent post because they said "unwelcome and unsocial behavior". I believe they were trying to talk more about practical problems. No one really wants to have to deal with used heroin needles on the ground.
Zak 7y ago
The attitude that trans people should be prevented from living in society is still widespread. A large number of people throughout the world think that it's damaging to society, harmful to children, etc... to have non-cis, non-straight people of any kind visible in public. Within the past few days, Nazis[0] disrupted a Pride march. So I do think, stepping up a meta-level that a general opposition to using force to suppress people and behaviors that some or a majority of society sees as degenerate, dirty, or a threat to public safety (but not a direct harm to others) relates to the grandparent commenter being trans. [0] No Godwin's Law here - literal Nazis: https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AACCK6v.img https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AACC...
- malvosenior 7y ago
  > but not a direct harm to others The argument is that public drug use is a harm to others. I don't see how shooting up on the street has anything to do with being trans. One is a public health hazard, the other is a personal choice. Yes there exists discrimination against trans people. That's an entirely separate issue that is not helpful to discuss with the original topic. We should be able to decide if we want second hand smoke, dirty needles, strung out people... in public without poisoning the debate well by bringing in non-related issues.
  - aisenik 7y ago
    as a transgender woman I'm very consciously aware that I am considered by many the dregs of society -- worse than the drug addicts shitting on your streets. this is not a rational belief and it's not going away. it's this fundamental lack of perspective that leads to y'all blithely supporting policy that will end with egregious human rights violations. everything that sucks in our society is a result of how we've designed it. come to reality. your ideologies kill people. it really sucks that "tech" has been fully subsumed by capital -- many of the visionaries that made the endless wealth fountain possible shared a vision of an equitable future that brought a better world and it was rooted in anticapitalist, social justice oriented philosophy. that feels so dead, these days.
toomanybeersies 7y ago
You can't second hand smoke crack, that's not really how it works at all. As for heroin, you can't just arrest people for shooting up in public and hope that's going to stop the problem. The kinds of people who shoot up or light up a pipe in public are at such a low point in their life that the disincentive of arrest (and fines/jail) means literally nothing to them. They're also often homeless. Where exactly do you expect the homeless junkies to shoot up? People doing hard drugs in public isn't like someone smoking a joint while walking down the street or even like someone drinking a 40 oz in public. Instead, the better option is to take a pragmatic approach. In my city, in areas of high drug use, they have put needle disposal bins in the public toilets and other places people shoot up. Surprisingly, they actually do get used and have significantly reduced the number of used needles on the street.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  > You can't second hand smoke crack, that's not really how it works at all. Apparently, you are incorrect: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/395287 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/39528... > As for heroin, you can't just arrest people for shooting up in public and hope that's going to stop the problem. The problem is that they are shooting up in public, so if you take them out of the public then it sort of does stop the problem.

aisenik 7y ago

Okay, so, guys. People literally think i'm a child molester. People like my dad. People like the two guys who assaulted me for absolutely no reason, in public, while no bystanders did anything whatsoever (as a trans woman, i'm glad he police weren't called -- my friends have been arrested and charged in similar circumstances). Get out of your bubble.

malvosenior 7y ago
That’s an entirely separate issue to what this post is about though. This is about making drug use legal.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  Not really. The original post said the following. >But I think a community must have ways to discourage or push people out of the public sphere who practice unwelcome and unsocial behavior. The point is, in much of even modern day US, and even more so in the past, just existing as a transgender individual who doesn't attempt to pass is deemed by a significant portion of society as unwelcome and unsocial. When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    > When you tie discrimination to what is deemed unacceptable behavior, you encounter an issue when deal with a society that deems acceptable behavior as unacceptable. No one is tying discrimination to the issue though. It’s 100% about public health. See my examples about dirty needles and crack smoke.
  - aisenik 7y ago
    Your quote is exactly what I was responding to, but I would say my point is that solutions have externalities and if you provide a framework for social exclusion it will be used against the people least able to support and protect themselves.
  - creycrey 7y ago
    The entire point of the law is define what is unacceptable behavior. You're reading too much into the comment to the point that it is trolling.
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      There are many forms of unacceptable behavior that do not make it into law. Back in sociology class they mentioned three categories, though I don't know if these days they are used. Laws are the strongest, the ones which we agree to directly take action against people who break these rules. That could be a fine. That could be years in prison. Morals or mores are the second, where we will tend to exclude people and openly speak against them, but not take direct action. What actually constitutes a social more is quite hard to define as they aren't written down as laws, often change, and often are based in part on things we don't want to admit (such as having built in racism or sexism). In parts of the US, being openly transgender is against the exist social mores. The last is folkways, where we generally have an accepted way of doing things but not really one we have openly agreed upon, and upon breaking it we don't have any socially agreed upon response. These are the weakest and are things that are more weird than wrong. A man having long hair would qualify as breaking a folkway in parts of the US. Why do I bring this up? Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. They likely won't succeed, but even the punishments for breaking social mores can be drastic. The law is not the end all definition of socially unacceptable behavior, and it is a given fact that some portions of US society deems being openly transgender as against social mores. To call this out is not trolling.
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        > Because, while transgenderism isn't against the law, there are definitely parts of society where it is against the mores of that portion of society and with some people being strongly enough against it they want to make it against the law. What does it mean to make transgenderism illegal? In the US it would not be possible to legislate someone's appearance or how they choose to identify.
- 3131s 7y ago
  The point is that what people find to be "socially unacceptable" in public is totally arbitrary. Why do you all really care if I smoke crack in public?
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    Health is not arbitrary. Why do I care if you smoke crack in public? Because I don’t want to breathe your second hand crack smoke. I’m shocked that this point is being lost in the discussion as it seems quite obvious.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      what if they do it in a designated smoking area?
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        Still not good enough: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/protection/ventilation/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/seco...
        leetcrew 7y ago
        that link is about second hand smoke indoors. I wasn't specific, but I meant outdoors.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I question that the needed ventilation and filtering systems would be worth the cost. Also, crack makes people kinda crazy, no? Do you really want rooms full of people smoking crack everywhere? I know I'm talking about second hand smoke (which would be awful) but there are tons of other reasons this is a bad idea.
        7y ago
nitwit005 7y ago
I think you're misinterpreting the grandparent post because they said "unwelcome and unsocial behavior". I believe they were trying to talk more about practical problems. No one really wants to have to deal with used heroin needles on the ground.

Zak 7y ago

The attitude that trans people should be prevented from living in society is still widespread. A large number of people throughout the world think that it's damaging to society, harmful to children, etc... to have non-cis, non-straight people of any kind visible in public. Within the past few days, Nazis[0] disrupted a Pride march. So I do think, stepping up a meta-level that a general opposition to using force to suppress people and behaviors that some or a majority of society sees as degenerate, dirty, or a threat to public safety (but not a direct harm to others) relates to the grandparent commenter being trans. [0] No Godwin's Law here - literal Nazis: https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AACCK6v.img https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AACC...

malvosenior 7y ago
> but not a direct harm to others The argument is that public drug use is a harm to others. I don't see how shooting up on the street has anything to do with being trans. One is a public health hazard, the other is a personal choice. Yes there exists discrimination against trans people. That's an entirely separate issue that is not helpful to discuss with the original topic. We should be able to decide if we want second hand smoke, dirty needles, strung out people... in public without poisoning the debate well by bringing in non-related issues.
- aisenik 7y ago
  as a transgender woman I'm very consciously aware that I am considered by many the dregs of society -- worse than the drug addicts shitting on your streets. this is not a rational belief and it's not going away. it's this fundamental lack of perspective that leads to y'all blithely supporting policy that will end with egregious human rights violations. everything that sucks in our society is a result of how we've designed it. come to reality. your ideologies kill people. it really sucks that "tech" has been fully subsumed by capital -- many of the visionaries that made the endless wealth fountain possible shared a vision of an equitable future that brought a better world and it was rooted in anticapitalist, social justice oriented philosophy. that feels so dead, these days.

toomanybeersies 7y ago

You can't second hand smoke crack, that's not really how it works at all. As for heroin, you can't just arrest people for shooting up in public and hope that's going to stop the problem. The kinds of people who shoot up or light up a pipe in public are at such a low point in their life that the disincentive of arrest (and fines/jail) means literally nothing to them. They're also often homeless. Where exactly do you expect the homeless junkies to shoot up? People doing hard drugs in public isn't like someone smoking a joint while walking down the street or even like someone drinking a 40 oz in public. Instead, the better option is to take a pragmatic approach. In my city, in areas of high drug use, they have put needle disposal bins in the public toilets and other places people shoot up. Surprisingly, they actually do get used and have significantly reduced the number of used needles on the street.

malvosenior 7y ago
> You can't second hand smoke crack, that's not really how it works at all. Apparently, you are incorrect: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/395287 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/39528... > As for heroin, you can't just arrest people for shooting up in public and hope that's going to stop the problem. The problem is that they are shooting up in public, so if you take them out of the public then it sort of does stop the problem.