8 ms·

Governments shouldn’t have a monopoly on Internet governance

181 points by michaelcgorman 16y ago

locopati 16y ago
Already posted using a direct link to ISOC story http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2016379 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2016379
- michaelcgorman 16y ago
  To me, this story was interesting to HN not because Google was commenting, but because Vint Cerf was. When he writes about Internet governance, I listen. The UN forms committees and working groups all the time; I'm not going to sign a petition to one of them unless someone I trust on the matter feels so strongly about it.
pierrefar 16y ago
Before we get all up in arms about governments taking monopoly, we should remind ourselves that the "bottom up" approach being championed here gave us the Google-Verizon open internet proposal in August. As I understand it, the proposal have implied net neutrality for wireline services but has an opt-out for wireless internet. So the bottom up approach is not a guarantee that it will produce better policies. But on balance, the bottom up approach has certainly been good for the internet. I just want to keep it in perspective. References for the Google-Verizon deal: http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2010/08/joint-policy-proposal-for-open-internet.html http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2010/08/joint-policy-... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10920871 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10920871
- iwwr 16y ago
  That's still top down, but with different people at the top. The Google-Verizon deal involved common framework for government regulation of the internet. Calling it "open internet" was a deliberate misnomer.
  - Groxx 16y ago
    Multiple inheritance rears its ugly head yet again. Namespace collisions, oh noes!
- noglorp 16y ago
  Think about it... the issue for wireline services is you can't just put in your own easily. Not an issue with wireless services. There is no special monopoly being given to wireless operators like wire operators.
vdm 16y ago
"bottoms-up" is mentioned twice. Spellchecker?
- RyanMcGreal 16y ago
  Freudian slip. Vint Cerf really wants a beer.
iwwr 16y ago
The inter-networks are too important to be governed by anyone, be they governments or companies. Government implies coercion and regulations, regardless of where it comes from. Not that the regulators won't try, they will be adamant about their "right" to "bring order" over apparent chaos.
- loumf 16y ago
  My understanding is that net-neutrality is only enforceable via government regulation. Meaning, that without the government mandating neutrality, the corporations would be free to break neutrality. As is usual, to provide freedom to one group, one must limit the freedoms of another, and we usually use government to do that.
  - iwwr 16y ago
    While ISPs can stiff their customers, they have the option of switching. There is no escaping from legislation, however. If there is a doctrine of "no regulation/no legislation", corporations would have less of an incentive to mess with the political process (less rent-seeking behavior). Net neutrality, while ostensibly a pro-consumer piece of legislation, nonetheless opens the door for future regulation (and yes, of censorship) of this space.
    - metageek 16y ago
      >While ISPs can stiff their customers, they have the option of switching. Not really. I'm on Comcast. I hate Comcast. But my only other option is 384kbps DSL, which is just not good enough any more.
  - liquidzoot 16y ago
    I agree with this sentiment, but have some reservations about government ability to maintain neutrality. As things are, government doesn't understand how the technology works, and are ill equipped to regulate something they know so little about.
    - 16y ago
mattmanser 16y ago
The very premise of this article is totally ridiculous. The beauty of the internet is that you can easily share vast amounts of digitized information with anyone without having to be in the same place. Not that it's governed by X or Y. And the IGF doesn't govern it anyway. In the end this forum is a total joke anyway, a pointless waste of money, much like many parts of the UN from which it stems. Any actual decisions are made elsewhere. And even if it did matter why should we support a bunch of companies and academics taking part in this sort of thing? Who elected them? What if it were Zynga sitting on this committee instead of Google? Would anyone be outraged at their departure?
steadicat 16y ago
"Governments shouldn't have a monopoly on governance." Isn't governance what governments are for? Granted, governments are dysfunctional in many ways, but suggesting governments let others govern seems a bit silly. Who else is going to govern? Should we let corporations sit on committees, next to officials, forgetting that officials were elected, and corporations were not? There is no guarantee that companies are going to take care of our interests better than governments do. And let's not forget that governments are dysfunctional largely because of the influence that corporations themselves already exert on them.
- ary 16y ago
  You missed the obvious, but none the less ignored, idea (at least in the US we pretend) that governments govern with the consent of the people. Perhaps someone wouldn't mind speaking up?
- grav1tas 16y ago
  While I somewhat agree with you, I do think that in the age of the pervasiveness of the Internet, we are moving to a time when sovereign governments have (if only) slightly less relevance than they did before. Sovereigns govern groups of people pretty much by geographic location based on 'citizenry' of areas where they reside/work/were born. With the rise of the Internet we now have new groups of people that have come together not based on geographic locations, but on shared ideas, interests, financial ventures, and what have you. These people can come together from all over the world online and may have more to do with each other than each members respective citizenry. To assume that sovereigns can/will/should act in the interest of this emerging enterprise is fairly far fetched in my opinion. Corporate interests may not defend them either, but still, on the Internet large corporations are almost sovereigns unto themselves. It'd be nice if some of these interest groups could have a/some seat(s) on this commission to help voice the interests of people who continually operate without respect to sovereign borders online.
- ataggart 16y ago
  >Isn't governance what governments are for? All As do B, but not everyone that does B is an A. I don't need an organization with a geographic monopoly on police powers to run my son's little league. >There is no guarantee that companies are going to take care of our interests better than governments do. Straw-man. The argument isn't that companies are going to "take care of our interests", it's that both politicians and CEOs respond to self-interest, but at least firms have competition for our dollars, thus are incentivized on a continual basis to meet our wants. The problem with the preceding is that government -- either intentionally, or as an unintended consequence -- helps to constrain the competitive market pressures. I would put a lot more stock in the "net neutrality" legislation advocates if they even bothered to look at what extant legislation might be contributing to the hypothetical problem before agitating for increased government manipulation of the market. Further: - Firms can operate in different markets; I can choose my barber independently from my grocer. With governments there are often competing factors in making electoral decisions, such that we are left with choosing the lesser of the evil package-deals. - Multiple firms can service different sets of preferences. We don't need to vote on what color tie to wear, and then have the minority yield to majority's preference.
jdp23 16y ago
Wikileaks highlights how governments' interest can differ from the "citizens of the Internet" (for lack of a better term). Of course governments do act as an important counterweight to keep corporations from abusing their monopolies on internet governments .... From a governance perspective, who speaks for "Google users"?
- shadowfox 16y ago
  Google themselves most likely
jayphelps 16y ago
I've said it before...I'm fairly confident the government will subsidize a nation-wide 5th generation wireless technology for free internet for all. It'll likely be restricted to just 80/8080 traffic, be throttled, and of course governed and monitored by the government. Since it's completely voluntary to use this network, it breaks no laws since by using it, you will grant them permission to snoop if they so choose. Call me crazy, but I think it's inevitable...likely to go down 10-15 years from now. Just one man's opinion though, that's all.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  The body-snatchers are coming for us. They will take our places in our daily lives and slowly envelop the entire world. Just one man's opinion though, that's all.
- ra 16y ago
  In Australia our government is rolling out a nationwide fibre to the home network called, National Broadband Network or NBN. It isn't free but the capital expenditure is 100% subsidised by the NBN Corporation (A govt owned corporation that has a few very large corporate shareholders).
siculars 16y ago
Say what you want about Google but at least they have fight in them and don't roll over at the onset.
jellicle 16y ago
I disagree. Google is completely wrong and self-serving here. Even evil. It is important for people to realize the idea of "conservation of government". There are many areas of life that will be governed by rules, like it or not. If government does it, they will be rules set by government, and therefore having some accountability to the people, in democratic societies. If government declines to be the rule-setter, private industry usually takes up the slack. Their rules have no accountability to individuals. But either way, the amount of government is conserved, only the basis for it and accountability of it change. If the U.S. decided to abolish the FDA, for example, there would still be rules governing food quality in the United States. They would be rules set by consortiums of grocery store chains and meat packers and the like. "Walmart will buy meat only of this quality and no worse", whatever that quality level might be. The food protection rules didn't disappear, they just became divorced from accountability to the public. Libertarians (Vint Cerf certainly is one, and corporations generally are as well) pronounce that shifting governance from government to corporations is good. Certainly it is in the corporate interest. As for good, any given shift could be good (in the sense that you could have a benevolent dictator, for a time), but in the aggregate, divorcing accountability from governance certainly results in worse governance (the average dictator is worse than the average elected representative). The unelected, unaccountable, responsive-only-to-money Chamber of Commerce is not in fact the right entity to be deciding internet governance issues. Elected governments are.
- noglorp 16y ago
  Well, the internet is currently really governed by the ICANN, a private corporation.
  - zcid 16y ago
    ICANN is easily manipulated and/or a shill. As has been shown very recently with the domain confiscations, ICANN cannot be trusted. We need an organization that is similar to ICANN but totally transparent and directly accountable to the public without being even remotely connected to any government. I have no idea how to implement such a body, but hopefully, someone more clever than myself will discover a way.
Locke1689 16y ago
Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'd rather governments have control here. At least I have a vote and rights in my government. I'm not a Google shareholder so Google, not so much.
- pjscott 16y ago
  I would prefer to keep control as decentralized as possible. To that end, I support sending loads of corporations to the internet governance meeting, as well as universities, non-profit groups, and random dudes with too much time on their hands. It's fine for them to discuss things like improving rural internet access. That's legitimate. But if they get up to any authoritarian shenanigans, I want those discussions to get bogged down in endless arguments.
andre 16y ago
Neither are big corporations, like Google.
foljs 16y ago
Translated from corporate speak: "Entities voted for by the people, and representing the people's interests shouldn't have a monopoly on Internet governance. I.e, the people, shouldn't have a monopoly on Internet governance". Now, you could argue that the some/all governments represent the people badly. But this is an argument/call to arms to demand BETTER representation, not for giving up control to other, opaque, entities.

181 points by michaelcgorman 16y ago

Already posted using a direct link to ISOC story http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2016379 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2016379

michaelcgorman 16y ago
To me, this story was interesting to HN not because Google was commenting, but because Vint Cerf was. When he writes about Internet governance, I listen. The UN forms committees and working groups all the time; I'm not going to sign a petition to one of them unless someone I trust on the matter feels so strongly about it.

pierrefar 16y ago

Before we get all up in arms about governments taking monopoly, we should remind ourselves that the "bottom up" approach being championed here gave us the Google-Verizon open internet proposal in August. As I understand it, the proposal have implied net neutrality for wireline services but has an opt-out for wireless internet. So the bottom up approach is not a guarantee that it will produce better policies. But on balance, the bottom up approach has certainly been good for the internet. I just want to keep it in perspective. References for the Google-Verizon deal: http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2010/08/joint-policy-proposal-for-open-internet.html http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2010/08/joint-policy-... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10920871 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10920871

iwwr 16y ago
That's still top down, but with different people at the top. The Google-Verizon deal involved common framework for government regulation of the internet. Calling it "open internet" was a deliberate misnomer.
- Groxx 16y ago
  Multiple inheritance rears its ugly head yet again. Namespace collisions, oh noes!
noglorp 16y ago
Think about it... the issue for wireline services is you can't just put in your own easily. Not an issue with wireless services. There is no special monopoly being given to wireless operators like wire operators.

vdm 16y ago

"bottoms-up" is mentioned twice. Spellchecker?

RyanMcGreal 16y ago
Freudian slip. Vint Cerf really wants a beer.

iwwr 16y ago

The inter-networks are too important to be governed by anyone, be they governments or companies. Government implies coercion and regulations, regardless of where it comes from. Not that the regulators won't try, they will be adamant about their "right" to "bring order" over apparent chaos.

loumf 16y ago
My understanding is that net-neutrality is only enforceable via government regulation. Meaning, that without the government mandating neutrality, the corporations would be free to break neutrality. As is usual, to provide freedom to one group, one must limit the freedoms of another, and we usually use government to do that.
- iwwr 16y ago
  While ISPs can stiff their customers, they have the option of switching. There is no escaping from legislation, however. If there is a doctrine of "no regulation/no legislation", corporations would have less of an incentive to mess with the political process (less rent-seeking behavior). Net neutrality, while ostensibly a pro-consumer piece of legislation, nonetheless opens the door for future regulation (and yes, of censorship) of this space.
  - metageek 16y ago
    >While ISPs can stiff their customers, they have the option of switching. Not really. I'm on Comcast. I hate Comcast. But my only other option is 384kbps DSL, which is just not good enough any more.
- liquidzoot 16y ago
  I agree with this sentiment, but have some reservations about government ability to maintain neutrality. As things are, government doesn't understand how the technology works, and are ill equipped to regulate something they know so little about.
  - 16y ago

mattmanser 16y ago

The very premise of this article is totally ridiculous. The beauty of the internet is that you can easily share vast amounts of digitized information with anyone without having to be in the same place. Not that it's governed by X or Y. And the IGF doesn't govern it anyway. In the end this forum is a total joke anyway, a pointless waste of money, much like many parts of the UN from which it stems. Any actual decisions are made elsewhere. And even if it did matter why should we support a bunch of companies and academics taking part in this sort of thing? Who elected them? What if it were Zynga sitting on this committee instead of Google? Would anyone be outraged at their departure?

steadicat 16y ago

"Governments shouldn't have a monopoly on governance." Isn't governance what governments are for? Granted, governments are dysfunctional in many ways, but suggesting governments let others govern seems a bit silly. Who else is going to govern? Should we let corporations sit on committees, next to officials, forgetting that officials were elected, and corporations were not? There is no guarantee that companies are going to take care of our interests better than governments do. And let's not forget that governments are dysfunctional largely because of the influence that corporations themselves already exert on them.

ary 16y ago
You missed the obvious, but none the less ignored, idea (at least in the US we pretend) that governments govern with the consent of the people. Perhaps someone wouldn't mind speaking up?
grav1tas 16y ago
While I somewhat agree with you, I do think that in the age of the pervasiveness of the Internet, we are moving to a time when sovereign governments have (if only) slightly less relevance than they did before. Sovereigns govern groups of people pretty much by geographic location based on 'citizenry' of areas where they reside/work/were born. With the rise of the Internet we now have new groups of people that have come together not based on geographic locations, but on shared ideas, interests, financial ventures, and what have you. These people can come together from all over the world online and may have more to do with each other than each members respective citizenry. To assume that sovereigns can/will/should act in the interest of this emerging enterprise is fairly far fetched in my opinion. Corporate interests may not defend them either, but still, on the Internet large corporations are almost sovereigns unto themselves. It'd be nice if some of these interest groups could have a/some seat(s) on this commission to help voice the interests of people who continually operate without respect to sovereign borders online.
ataggart 16y ago
>Isn't governance what governments are for? All As do B, but not everyone that does B is an A. I don't need an organization with a geographic monopoly on police powers to run my son's little league. >There is no guarantee that companies are going to take care of our interests better than governments do. Straw-man. The argument isn't that companies are going to "take care of our interests", it's that both politicians and CEOs respond to self-interest, but at least firms have competition for our dollars, thus are incentivized on a continual basis to meet our wants. The problem with the preceding is that government -- either intentionally, or as an unintended consequence -- helps to constrain the competitive market pressures. I would put a lot more stock in the "net neutrality" legislation advocates if they even bothered to look at what extant legislation might be contributing to the hypothetical problem before agitating for increased government manipulation of the market. Further: - Firms can operate in different markets; I can choose my barber independently from my grocer. With governments there are often competing factors in making electoral decisions, such that we are left with choosing the lesser of the evil package-deals. - Multiple firms can service different sets of preferences. We don't need to vote on what color tie to wear, and then have the minority yield to majority's preference.

jdp23 16y ago

Wikileaks highlights how governments' interest can differ from the "citizens of the Internet" (for lack of a better term). Of course governments do act as an important counterweight to keep corporations from abusing their monopolies on internet governments .... From a governance perspective, who speaks for "Google users"?

shadowfox 16y ago
Google themselves most likely

jayphelps 16y ago

I've said it before...I'm fairly confident the government will subsidize a nation-wide 5th generation wireless technology for free internet for all. It'll likely be restricted to just 80/8080 traffic, be throttled, and of course governed and monitored by the government. Since it's completely voluntary to use this network, it breaks no laws since by using it, you will grant them permission to snoop if they so choose. Call me crazy, but I think it's inevitable...likely to go down 10-15 years from now. Just one man's opinion though, that's all.

alnayyir 16y ago
The body-snatchers are coming for us. They will take our places in our daily lives and slowly envelop the entire world. Just one man's opinion though, that's all.
ra 16y ago
In Australia our government is rolling out a nationwide fibre to the home network called, National Broadband Network or NBN. It isn't free but the capital expenditure is 100% subsidised by the NBN Corporation (A govt owned corporation that has a few very large corporate shareholders).

siculars 16y ago

Say what you want about Google but at least they have fight in them and don't roll over at the onset.

jellicle 16y ago

I disagree. Google is completely wrong and self-serving here. Even evil. It is important for people to realize the idea of "conservation of government". There are many areas of life that will be governed by rules, like it or not. If government does it, they will be rules set by government, and therefore having some accountability to the people, in democratic societies. If government declines to be the rule-setter, private industry usually takes up the slack. Their rules have no accountability to individuals. But either way, the amount of government is conserved, only the basis for it and accountability of it change. If the U.S. decided to abolish the FDA, for example, there would still be rules governing food quality in the United States. They would be rules set by consortiums of grocery store chains and meat packers and the like. "Walmart will buy meat only of this quality and no worse", whatever that quality level might be. The food protection rules didn't disappear, they just became divorced from accountability to the public. Libertarians (Vint Cerf certainly is one, and corporations generally are as well) pronounce that shifting governance from government to corporations is good. Certainly it is in the corporate interest. As for good, any given shift could be good (in the sense that you could have a benevolent dictator, for a time), but in the aggregate, divorcing accountability from governance certainly results in worse governance (the average dictator is worse than the average elected representative). The unelected, unaccountable, responsive-only-to-money Chamber of Commerce is not in fact the right entity to be deciding internet governance issues. Elected governments are.

noglorp 16y ago
Well, the internet is currently really governed by the ICANN, a private corporation.
- zcid 16y ago
  ICANN is easily manipulated and/or a shill. As has been shown very recently with the domain confiscations, ICANN cannot be trusted. We need an organization that is similar to ICANN but totally transparent and directly accountable to the public without being even remotely connected to any government. I have no idea how to implement such a body, but hopefully, someone more clever than myself will discover a way.

Locke1689 16y ago

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'd rather governments have control here. At least I have a vote and rights in my government. I'm not a Google shareholder so Google, not so much.

pjscott 16y ago
I would prefer to keep control as decentralized as possible. To that end, I support sending loads of corporations to the internet governance meeting, as well as universities, non-profit groups, and random dudes with too much time on their hands. It's fine for them to discuss things like improving rural internet access. That's legitimate. But if they get up to any authoritarian shenanigans, I want those discussions to get bogged down in endless arguments.

andre 16y ago

Neither are big corporations, like Google.

foljs 16y ago

Translated from corporate speak: "Entities voted for by the people, and representing the people's interests shouldn't have a monopoly on Internet governance. I.e, the people, shouldn't have a monopoly on Internet governance". Now, you could argue that the some/all governments represent the people badly. But this is an argument/call to arms to demand BETTER representation, not for giving up control to other, opaque, entities.