6 ms·

I actually interviewed a candidate once who regularly spoke at tech conferences. This person certainly had an industry track record, yet they failed spectacular

by tjpnz 7y ago

I actually interviewed a candidate once who regularly spoke at tech conferences. This person certainly had an industry track record, yet they failed spectacularly with FizzBuzz and did even worse on the questions about simple data structures. It's possible they were having a bad day, but it's equally plausible that we had encountered someone who could just talk really convincingly about things in very general terms.

acjohnson55 7y ago
I believe you. It's just that assuming they made it through the whole process, showed up, and couldn't do the work, I think the thing to do is just sit down and say "this isn't working", part ways, and on to the next one.
mlthoughts2018 7y ago
To me, this says more about the failure of interview questions about data structures than about that (probably perfectly competent) candidate.
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  Every substantial program uses at least one data structure. The problem isn’t asking about data structures or even algorithms. It’s about asking leetcode.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    I agree. Maybe to a limited extent I’d also say not accommodating the candidate’s working requirements (introvert vs extravert, choice of editor, time pressure) is another big part of it.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  I've met and had the misfortune of working with folks who have gotten jobs via beers-and-handshakes interviews. Supposed "lead" and "senior" engineers who couldn't comprehend basic control flow, who wanted, and attempted(!), to write their own Rails clone, Flux clone, etc. Just like leadership and managerial tasks are not related to actual coding, talking about and evangelizing some library or technology does not mean you're a competent software engineer. They are very different skills.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    Nah, this type of anecdote is overblown, usually by people with a vested interest in keeping leetcode-like interview puzzles as a gatekeeper barrier to hiring and internal advancement.
    - baud147258 7y ago
      Fizzbuzz is a leetcode puzzle?
      - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
        Huh?
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      Well that’s just a false dichotomy. One can provide a coding challenge that isn’t a lame “gotcha” puzzle.
      - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
        In theory sure, it just doesn’t happen in tech interviewing though.
        mieseratte 7y ago
        Well, anecdotally, it absolutely does happen in tech interviewing, and I'm saying that both as an interviewer and someone presently interviewing for a job. Sounds like you've found yourself in an interviewing rut.
        mlthoughts2018 7y ago
        No, been in the same job happily for a while & not currently interviewing. I am also an engineering manager and happy to be out of the hell of rank and file engineering interviewing in my career. It’s just a widespread, deep culture problem in tech interviewing. The questions and evaluation procedures are set up to be pedantic oneupsmanship trivia, and are not rooted in psychologically healthy realities of the way people work or demonstrate skill or communication patterns.
bitL 7y ago
If you skipped FizzBuzz and went with another programming exercise, e.g. giving some simple dynamic programming or reordering lists etc., would FizzBuzz actually be useful at all? From my point of view FizzBuzz is about asserting dominance right from the start ("oh, you want a job you lowly peasant? here's what you need to do!") and not about actually interviewing anyone. It's a complete waste of time and filters out all candidates that respect themselves that walk away/decline offer, you ending up only with desperate ones.
- scarface74 7y ago
  If you think you are too good to go through the interview process, that also sends a signal. That you are probably going to be a cowboy if we hired you and not follow processes.
  - bitL 7y ago
    There is a cure for companies with your attitude, it's called competition, resulting from letting those "other" people to join/create your competitors that then in due time push you out of your markets.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      No company of any size - even with as few as 10 developers needs cowboy coders. Someone has to maintain your code, we have a CI/CD process that means you don’t just push your code to production from the IDE for a minor code fix, etc.
      - bitL 7y ago
        I still remember when I helped a friend at another "famous company" not to get kicked out due to incompetence and wrote some program for him overnight. His colleagues weren't able to understand what it was doing for over a month, it made it to the software core of devices they shipped and he received a yearly innovation award for it. A year later I met him and he was sarcastically pointing out a small bug in the code he found (well, since then I try not to help). Yet, he would have far higher chance to land in your company than me, because he would be super happy to pass FizzBuzz, whereas I would just walk away the moment you give it to me and make myself off for a month on Bora Bora to wash away the disgust I felt over your arrogance and pride you demonstrated on the interview.

by tjpnz 7y ago

acjohnson55 7y ago

I believe you. It's just that assuming they made it through the whole process, showed up, and couldn't do the work, I think the thing to do is just sit down and say "this isn't working", part ways, and on to the next one.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

To me, this says more about the failure of interview questions about data structures than about that (probably perfectly competent) candidate.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago
Every substantial program uses at least one data structure. The problem isn’t asking about data structures or even algorithms. It’s about asking leetcode.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  I agree. Maybe to a limited extent I’d also say not accommodating the candidate’s working requirements (introvert vs extravert, choice of editor, time pressure) is another big part of it.
mieseratte 7y ago
I've met and had the misfortune of working with folks who have gotten jobs via beers-and-handshakes interviews. Supposed "lead" and "senior" engineers who couldn't comprehend basic control flow, who wanted, and attempted(!), to write their own Rails clone, Flux clone, etc. Just like leadership and managerial tasks are not related to actual coding, talking about and evangelizing some library or technology does not mean you're a competent software engineer. They are very different skills.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  Nah, this type of anecdote is overblown, usually by people with a vested interest in keeping leetcode-like interview puzzles as a gatekeeper barrier to hiring and internal advancement.
  - baud147258 7y ago
    Fizzbuzz is a leetcode puzzle?
    - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
      Huh?
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    Well that’s just a false dichotomy. One can provide a coding challenge that isn’t a lame “gotcha” puzzle.
    - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
      In theory sure, it just doesn’t happen in tech interviewing though.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        Well, anecdotally, it absolutely does happen in tech interviewing, and I'm saying that both as an interviewer and someone presently interviewing for a job. Sounds like you've found yourself in an interviewing rut.
        mlthoughts2018 7y ago
        No, been in the same job happily for a while & not currently interviewing. I am also an engineering manager and happy to be out of the hell of rank and file engineering interviewing in my career. It’s just a widespread, deep culture problem in tech interviewing. The questions and evaluation procedures are set up to be pedantic oneupsmanship trivia, and are not rooted in psychologically healthy realities of the way people work or demonstrate skill or communication patterns.

bitL 7y ago

If you skipped FizzBuzz and went with another programming exercise, e.g. giving some simple dynamic programming or reordering lists etc., would FizzBuzz actually be useful at all? From my point of view FizzBuzz is about asserting dominance right from the start ("oh, you want a job you lowly peasant? here's what you need to do!") and not about actually interviewing anyone. It's a complete waste of time and filters out all candidates that respect themselves that walk away/decline offer, you ending up only with desperate ones.

scarface74 7y ago
If you think you are too good to go through the interview process, that also sends a signal. That you are probably going to be a cowboy if we hired you and not follow processes.
- bitL 7y ago
  There is a cure for companies with your attitude, it's called competition, resulting from letting those "other" people to join/create your competitors that then in due time push you out of your markets.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    No company of any size - even with as few as 10 developers needs cowboy coders. Someone has to maintain your code, we have a CI/CD process that means you don’t just push your code to production from the IDE for a minor code fix, etc.
    - bitL 7y ago
      I still remember when I helped a friend at another "famous company" not to get kicked out due to incompetence and wrote some program for him overnight. His colleagues weren't able to understand what it was doing for over a month, it made it to the software core of devices they shipped and he received a yearly innovation award for it. A year later I met him and he was sarcastically pointing out a small bug in the code he found (well, since then I try not to help). Yet, he would have far higher chance to land in your company than me, because he would be super happy to pass FizzBuzz, whereas I would just walk away the moment you give it to me and make myself off for a month on Bora Bora to wash away the disgust I felt over your arrogance and pride you demonstrated on the interview.