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For me the red flag is them willing to send this letter to Chase, via snail mail at no charge to you. Nobody gives something for nothing. So I thought, why woul

For me the red flag is them willing to send this letter to Chase, via snail mail at no charge to you. Nobody gives something for nothing. So I thought, why would they do this? after reading through the form, at the bottom, it looks like one of the companies, who sponsors this site, "Radvocate" seems like they are in the "class action" lawsuit business. https://myradvocate.com/ https://myradvocate.com/ This site is about having enough potential clients are able to sue Chase at some point in the future, whenever a class action lawsuit comes up - and heck, they even will have a customer list and a relationship with you from sending this "free" letter for you in the past. Usually in those kinds of cases, the end recipient gets very little - perhaps some subscription to a ID protection service or a few bucks but the firm who runs the class action makes a lot. On the one hand, maybe it helps keep them honest (they cite Wells Fargo) so its good to be able to. But clearly there is some vested interest here on the part of Radvocate.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
> Usually in those kinds of cases, the end recipient gets very little - perhaps some subscription to a ID protection service or a few bucks but the firm who runs the class action makes a lot. This suggests to me you feel that class action judgments do not adequately compensate claimants. This shouldn't dissuade us from fighting back against businesses who treat their customers unfairly. The problem isn't the class action lawsuit or Radvocate. It goes much deeper. It's goes to the core of businesses (e.g, banks) who provide critical access to the financial system forcing you, the consumer, to resolve disputes through their shadow justice system in which they pay the arbiters, which have a history of siding more frequently with the corporation.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
From a "consumer who wouldn't individually sue chase" perspective I see nothing wrong here. I know many here consider this to be ideological heresy but it's possible to have a transaction where both parties come out ahead and this seems like one of those win-wins to me. They do a little work for you in exchange for putting your name on a list of people they can use in a class action, you might even get $5 or something out of it if they win. Putting your PII into a random website should be what raises red flags here. I hope they're not storing the account numbers, or at least not storing them with the associated personal details.
- PunksATawnyFill 7y ago
  win/win
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  It's a standard HN (and wider society) complaint that makes very little sense: the best case for corporate behavior is having incentives that are aligned with the consumer or whatever your definition of societal good is.
Chris_Chambers 7y ago
Oh no, someone might reap a benefit from the effort they put into something.
markovbot 7y ago
So the "downside" is that they might ask for your help causing more problems for Chase in the future? I didn't click the link but now I'm going to go sign up!
mjkornbl 7y ago
Radvocate here: We do have a vested interest. Over time, we want to be the place you come when you have a dispute against a big company because we'll fight hard for you. We're excited to partner on this project partly because it is very "on brand" for us from that perspective — we can help people, get our name out there, and shine light on an issue that matters to us. We're a business, but we're also all in this business (instead of some other business) because we want to make the system fairer for consumers. ETA: Also, to correct one misapprehension: we are not in the class action business. We actually help consumers pursue individual arbitrations. We think more people should know that even if their contract doesn't let them sue, they actually do have a way to assert their power through arbitration. If anything, we'll have more customers for our current business if no one opts out of their Chase clause.
- pkfrank 7y ago
  Bravo. In my view, this connection and upside was made appropriately-clear in the "Who are you and why did you build this?" section, and the context from the logo attached to the site. Very clever marketing, good on you for managing this, and I hope you see a great return for your efforts.
  - mjkornbl 7y ago
    Thanks – I'm glad you have a long-standing comment history so this doesn't look like I made you up ;-)
    - stickdogg 7y ago
      Lol. That was good reframing. The first comment had me leaning in the direction of not siding with Radvocate.
- rkhassen 7y ago
  Good points and I appreciate what you write here. And an interesting business concept - to help consumers pursue individual arbitrations. That could be really cool especially against large corporations when they are abusive. What do you charge as people go through their individual arbitration process/ how does the profit model work? I really have mixed feelings about the legal system - on Also, Radvocate, wondering if you can address the PII concerns other's have raised, as that is a very big deal.
mjkornbl 7y ago
An additional point on the logistics: I don't have direct access to the fulfillment of this particular initiative, but in general we can take advantage of the efficiency of sending multiple legal notices in the same packet. So the cost per individual letter can be much less than one would assume.
ClassyJacket 7y ago
Nonsense, their FAQ says: "We’re a group of like-minded companies who like building things that help people. " They're just doing this out of the goodness of their hearts!!!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hnruss 7y ago
If they're going to sue Chase someday, more power to them.
ForHackernews 7y ago
> This site is about having enough potential clients are able to sue Chase at some point in the future ...that sounds good to me! I certainly don't have the resources to take Chase to court myself, and who knows, maybe the existence of this class-action-in-waiting will keep Chase from being as shady.
besieged 7y ago
That seems like a fair trade off.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

> Usually in those kinds of cases, the end recipient gets very little - perhaps some subscription to a ID protection service or a few bucks but the firm who runs the class action makes a lot. This suggests to me you feel that class action judgments do not adequately compensate claimants. This shouldn't dissuade us from fighting back against businesses who treat their customers unfairly. The problem isn't the class action lawsuit or Radvocate. It goes much deeper. It's goes to the core of businesses (e.g, banks) who provide critical access to the financial system forcing you, the consumer, to resolve disputes through their shadow justice system in which they pay the arbiters, which have a history of siding more frequently with the corporation.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

From a "consumer who wouldn't individually sue chase" perspective I see nothing wrong here. I know many here consider this to be ideological heresy but it's possible to have a transaction where both parties come out ahead and this seems like one of those win-wins to me. They do a little work for you in exchange for putting your name on a list of people they can use in a class action, you might even get $5 or something out of it if they win. Putting your PII into a random website should be what raises red flags here. I hope they're not storing the account numbers, or at least not storing them with the associated personal details.

PunksATawnyFill 7y ago
win/win
wutbrodo 7y ago
It's a standard HN (and wider society) complaint that makes very little sense: the best case for corporate behavior is having incentives that are aligned with the consumer or whatever your definition of societal good is.

Chris_Chambers 7y ago

Oh no, someone might reap a benefit from the effort they put into something.

markovbot 7y ago

So the "downside" is that they might ask for your help causing more problems for Chase in the future? I didn't click the link but now I'm going to go sign up!

mjkornbl 7y ago

Radvocate here: We do have a vested interest. Over time, we want to be the place you come when you have a dispute against a big company because we'll fight hard for you. We're excited to partner on this project partly because it is very "on brand" for us from that perspective — we can help people, get our name out there, and shine light on an issue that matters to us. We're a business, but we're also all in this business (instead of some other business) because we want to make the system fairer for consumers. ETA: Also, to correct one misapprehension: we are not in the class action business. We actually help consumers pursue individual arbitrations. We think more people should know that even if their contract doesn't let them sue, they actually do have a way to assert their power through arbitration. If anything, we'll have more customers for our current business if no one opts out of their Chase clause.

pkfrank 7y ago
Bravo. In my view, this connection and upside was made appropriately-clear in the "Who are you and why did you build this?" section, and the context from the logo attached to the site. Very clever marketing, good on you for managing this, and I hope you see a great return for your efforts.
- mjkornbl 7y ago
  Thanks – I'm glad you have a long-standing comment history so this doesn't look like I made you up ;-)
  - stickdogg 7y ago
    Lol. That was good reframing. The first comment had me leaning in the direction of not siding with Radvocate.
rkhassen 7y ago
Good points and I appreciate what you write here. And an interesting business concept - to help consumers pursue individual arbitrations. That could be really cool especially against large corporations when they are abusive. What do you charge as people go through their individual arbitration process/ how does the profit model work? I really have mixed feelings about the legal system - on Also, Radvocate, wondering if you can address the PII concerns other's have raised, as that is a very big deal.

mjkornbl 7y ago

An additional point on the logistics: I don't have direct access to the fulfillment of this particular initiative, but in general we can take advantage of the efficiency of sending multiple legal notices in the same packet. So the cost per individual letter can be much less than one would assume.

ClassyJacket 7y ago

Nonsense, their FAQ says: "We’re a group of like-minded companies who like building things that help people. " They're just doing this out of the goodness of their hearts!!!

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

hnruss 7y ago

If they're going to sue Chase someday, more power to them.

ForHackernews 7y ago

> This site is about having enough potential clients are able to sue Chase at some point in the future ...that sounds good to me! I certainly don't have the resources to take Chase to court myself, and who knows, maybe the existence of this class-action-in-waiting will keep Chase from being as shady.

besieged 7y ago

That seems like a fair trade off.