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I'm reminded of parallels between cell phone location privacy and genetic tracking. The average person does not understand that they are creating a record of ev

I'm reminded of parallels between cell phone location privacy and genetic tracking. The average person does not understand that they are creating a record of everywhere they go when they have their cell phone on. The same is true with your DNA - while it's true that you do in fact leave a literal trace of your genes, you don't expect that you could be identified later on simply by the fact that you had lunch. What we really need is a legislative solution, but unfortunately I have low expectations for Congress, seeing that Carpenter v. United States even had to happen.

redm 7y ago
I like your analogy, I'd add that DNA search/collection is akin to scanning cell phone records to see who was in the area at the time of the crime. Which typically requires a warrant.
decoyworker 7y ago
What would you legislate? Your location is not private information and never has been. Not sure how you could even legislate to make your DNA protected private information- under HIPPA for instance, considering you leave it everywhere you go. Your fingerprint is not private, your face is not private, and your DNA is not private. I'm not sure how they could be.
- village-idiot 7y ago
  Your location isn’t private if you’re observed in a location where you have no expectation of privacy, i.e. outside. But if I’m at a friends house, I absolutely have an expectation that my presence in their home is private to the world at large. The problem is that dragnet surveillance does not: 1. Handle the subtleties of how we expect privacy to work. 2. Require direct observation of someone in a context where there is no expectation of privacy. It just works all the time, and contains the ability to unmask private events in the past.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    your expectation of privacy is sort of inconsistent here. if you don't have an expectation of privacy when your out in the world, and it's fair game for people to observe you traveling to your friend's house, how can you expect that your presence is private?
    - bilbo0s 7y ago
      I can't speak to whether that is inconsistent or not, but in support of HN User'village-idiot', I think it'd be a pretty big bummer for people to find out that any tryst they have with a lover is not private, but public in nature. Taking your phone or your DNA to any such tryst makes it so apparently. What's worse, there will likely be a lot of scope creep. It's showing up in criminal court. It's showing up in civil court cases. It's definitely going to be showing up in family court. Etc etc etc.
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        > I can't speak to whether that is inconsistent or not, but in support of HN User'village-idiot', I think it'd be a pretty big bummer for people to find out that any tryst they have with a lover is not private, but public in nature. it's a bummer for sure, but it's been this way for a while. it's perfectly legal for your wife to hire a PI to follow you around. the police also don't need a warrant to observe your movements. the part that's new is that all this surveillance can be done passively without any particular reason to suspect you. imo, the distinction between public and private spaces is pretty reasonable for targeted investigations and observation by fellow citizens. in my view, the real problem is how long information should be stored, especially when collected passively.
    - pixl97 7y ago
      My problem is the scale of the issue, at least when it comes to phones. If I am at my friens the people involved are apt to forget almost everything in a few days. The cellphone tracking system, in theory, will studiously remember exactly where you are till the end of time by a company wit history of give or selling said data to the government in secret.
nradov 7y ago
The average person knows that cell phone location tracking can be used as evidence in criminal investigations. It shows up all the time in TV and movies.
- ryanmcbride 7y ago
  I agree with you but there's still this weird disconnect where people believe they can be tracked realtime by their phone, but not historically. They know their phone can be 'triangulated' when the cops are actively looking at them, but everyone I show their phone's location history to freaks out about it.
lifeisstillgood 7y ago
I think this is going to be beyond one country legislators in the vein of GDPR (becoming de facto across the "Western" region). I am hoping for something think a presumption of data ownership for anything the individual "creates" like digital footprints
gingabriska 7y ago
Imagine if some spy on espionage mission has sex with you and police/intelligence finds your dna in her bedroom or inside her, and now you'll be under investigation and maybe torchered too to reveal something you've no idea about. I am not sure if it's possible in first world countries but many countries where these companies will soon offer such investigative service to local intelligence/police department have very high chance to do exactly that.
- castis 7y ago
  If an actor were to go through that much effort to get DNA from someone, I doubt they would be concerned with the legalities of it.
maxerickson 7y ago
I think in general, people who are aware of DNA used as evidence don't understand that it isn't perfect, that most matches are (somewhat) loose statistical matches. Lots of people probably aren't aware of it though.

redm 7y ago

I like your analogy, I'd add that DNA search/collection is akin to scanning cell phone records to see who was in the area at the time of the crime. Which typically requires a warrant.

decoyworker 7y ago

What would you legislate? Your location is not private information and never has been. Not sure how you could even legislate to make your DNA protected private information- under HIPPA for instance, considering you leave it everywhere you go. Your fingerprint is not private, your face is not private, and your DNA is not private. I'm not sure how they could be.

village-idiot 7y ago
Your location isn’t private if you’re observed in a location where you have no expectation of privacy, i.e. outside. But if I’m at a friends house, I absolutely have an expectation that my presence in their home is private to the world at large. The problem is that dragnet surveillance does not: 1. Handle the subtleties of how we expect privacy to work. 2. Require direct observation of someone in a context where there is no expectation of privacy. It just works all the time, and contains the ability to unmask private events in the past.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  your expectation of privacy is sort of inconsistent here. if you don't have an expectation of privacy when your out in the world, and it's fair game for people to observe you traveling to your friend's house, how can you expect that your presence is private?
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    I can't speak to whether that is inconsistent or not, but in support of HN User'village-idiot', I think it'd be a pretty big bummer for people to find out that any tryst they have with a lover is not private, but public in nature. Taking your phone or your DNA to any such tryst makes it so apparently. What's worse, there will likely be a lot of scope creep. It's showing up in criminal court. It's showing up in civil court cases. It's definitely going to be showing up in family court. Etc etc etc.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      > I can't speak to whether that is inconsistent or not, but in support of HN User'village-idiot', I think it'd be a pretty big bummer for people to find out that any tryst they have with a lover is not private, but public in nature. it's a bummer for sure, but it's been this way for a while. it's perfectly legal for your wife to hire a PI to follow you around. the police also don't need a warrant to observe your movements. the part that's new is that all this surveillance can be done passively without any particular reason to suspect you. imo, the distinction between public and private spaces is pretty reasonable for targeted investigations and observation by fellow citizens. in my view, the real problem is how long information should be stored, especially when collected passively.
  - pixl97 7y ago
    My problem is the scale of the issue, at least when it comes to phones. If I am at my friens the people involved are apt to forget almost everything in a few days. The cellphone tracking system, in theory, will studiously remember exactly where you are till the end of time by a company wit history of give or selling said data to the government in secret.

nradov 7y ago

The average person knows that cell phone location tracking can be used as evidence in criminal investigations. It shows up all the time in TV and movies.

ryanmcbride 7y ago
I agree with you but there's still this weird disconnect where people believe they can be tracked realtime by their phone, but not historically. They know their phone can be 'triangulated' when the cops are actively looking at them, but everyone I show their phone's location history to freaks out about it.

lifeisstillgood 7y ago

I think this is going to be beyond one country legislators in the vein of GDPR (becoming de facto across the "Western" region). I am hoping for something think a presumption of data ownership for anything the individual "creates" like digital footprints

gingabriska 7y ago

Imagine if some spy on espionage mission has sex with you and police/intelligence finds your dna in her bedroom or inside her, and now you'll be under investigation and maybe torchered too to reveal something you've no idea about. I am not sure if it's possible in first world countries but many countries where these companies will soon offer such investigative service to local intelligence/police department have very high chance to do exactly that.

castis 7y ago
If an actor were to go through that much effort to get DNA from someone, I doubt they would be concerned with the legalities of it.

maxerickson 7y ago

I think in general, people who are aware of DNA used as evidence don't understand that it isn't perfect, that most matches are (somewhat) loose statistical matches. Lots of people probably aren't aware of it though.