13 ms·

I rode all the e-scooters, and most of them are awful except two

143 points by ourmandave 7y ago

yardie 7y ago
I took an Uber scooter yesterday and it was the most bone rattling experience I’ve had in a while. Not sure who designed these but there is a reason bicycles and cars have had pneumatic tires for a century, now. Wheels look interesting and I hope they extend their service area to south Florida.
josefresco 7y ago
Good write up. I wonder if people would have such a problem with these scooters, if they simply sat upright when left instead of falling over. Most photos I see of these scooters, are "piles" of them, or them strewn on the sidewalk. Even with kickstands, I doubt users would leave them in neat order - however I wonder if there's an engineering solution that would prevent them from falling, or at least encourage people to be neat.
- bamboo_7 7y ago
  In theory, some of them have gyroscope things that can send a signal if they are not upright.
checker 7y ago
This is the first I've heard of people tampering with the brake systems - it's incredibly malicious. I understand some people might be frustrated by the scooters, but is manslaughter really the right way to go about it?
- Shikadi 7y ago
  Someone detached my brake cables on my bike locked right next to a hill that lead to the busiest road in the area. I noticed before I even got on the bike, but come on people.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Wow! That's something I do not normally even check. Then again, I don't leave my bike out of sight but the fact that someone would even think of doing something like that is pretty close to an attempt at murder.
- coldtea 7y ago
  It worked in the French revolution!
- docdeek 7y ago
  Story here in Lyon, France, yesterday about a less-dangerous attack on the electric scooters: instead of cutting the brake cables, vandals are painting over the QR code instead. No QR code to scan means no useable scooter. Link in French: https://www.leprogres.fr/rhone-69/2019/06/10/a-lyon-les-trottinettes-electriques-immobilisees-en-un-coup-de-peinture https://www.leprogres.fr/rhone-69/2019/06/10/a-lyon-les-trot...
  - md2be 7y ago
    I like it - is there a way to block the antenna ?
  - mmcwilliams 7y ago
    To be fair, QR codes are a fairly fragile technology for something like that. If instead of destroying them, someone replaced the codes with a malicious link the outcome could be worse.
    - GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
      Great idea! I'll go print some QR stickers tonight
- davedx 7y ago
  Yeah, having ridden Birds around Paris at 25 km/h without ever considering this (I think they had lever brakes with cables too), this is terrifying. People are crazy.
  - baud147258 7y ago
    I hope you weren't on the sidewalk at this speed
    - yardie 7y ago
      They have true dedicated bike lanes in Paris. Taken from the car lanes to reduce most streets to 2 lanes. The only things allowed on the sidewalks are people, pets, prams, and cafe tables and chairs.
      - derefr 7y ago
        How about those moped-shaped electric wheelchair buggies? (I’ve always wondered what the proper “lane” for those is; they go fast enough and have enough momentum that they’re dangerous on the sidewalk, but they’re unprotected enough that it’s dangerous for them to be in the bike lane, let alone a car lane.) ...or do those even exist outside of America (and maybe the ex-Commonwealth)?
        Luc 7y ago
        They're considered equivalent to pedestrians and should use the sidewalk at walking speed, unless it's blocked. They shouldn't be on the bicycle path. According to French rules of the road, that is. https://ressources-ergo.com/legislation-et-fauteuil-roulant-ou-doivent-circuler-les-personnes-en-fauteuil-roulant-dans-lespace-public/ https://ressources-ergo.com/legislation-et-fauteuil-roulant-...
        jdietrich 7y ago
        Here in the UK, we have two categories of mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs. If they're capable of no more than 4mph, they can be used on the pavement; if they're capable of more than 4mph but less than 8mph, they can be used on the road without a license but they do need to be registered. https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs-rules https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs...
- md2be 7y ago
  Pure BS, The first manslaughter will be due to the scooter that runs into a kid. Stay off the sidewalks.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    When you find yourself posting in every comment thread of a single submission to grind your axe, it's probably time to look for a new submission to participate in or take a break from HN.
- teachrdan 7y ago
  It is all but impossible to get injured due to this vandalism. If the brake cables are cut, you will be unable to even mount the scooter. It's the same UX as on a bicycle: The rider must (unconsciously) press the brake lever to keep the bike in place while getting on it. You'll know right away if the cable is cut--before you even start your ride.
  - vk23 7y ago
    I don't think thats how most people mount a bicycle. You can easily get on it without touching the brakes. After all while you are still touching the ground you are breaking it.
nicholasfoden 7y ago
Wow this page loads a LOT of js
AJ007 7y ago
The legal liability for these companies must be huge. I’ve seen toddlers on these things with their parents, more than once. Kids very often.
- brokenmachine 7y ago
  They probably have it in their fine print that you are not allowed passengers. They'd be stupid not to really.
sporksmith 7y ago
Seems like the main flaw in the ones the author labeled "awful" was a geofence policy that limited the top speed on a "bike path", or locked them out of it altogether. Makes it a bit difficult to generalize their conclusions, especially without knowing more about the path to be able to judge whether that policy is reasonable (and/or mandated by the city).
- alistairSH 7y ago
  The Venice beach bike path is a "standard" mixed-use path. Wide enough for bikes to pass in opposite directions - total width is a bit wider than a full size pick-up truck. It's fairly twisty and bordered by sand on both sides, so if you run over the edge, you probably fall on your face. As for appropriate speeds, a jog is about 5mph. That sounds reasonable and safe for a small-wheeled scooter. A townie/cruiser bicycle will do 10mph without too much effort, so that could be the upper bound too. Much faster with those small wheels seems dangerous regardless of location.
lmm 7y ago
> We’ve restricted our entrants to scooter-type vehicles (as opposed to e-assist bicycles) And then the conclusion is that the most bicycle-like one is best because it's more bicycle-like. Seems like a category arbitrage rather than a fair analysis of mobility options.
- masklinn 7y ago
  > And then the conclusion is that the most bicycle-like one is best because it's more bicycle-like. Seems like a category arbitrage rather than a fair analysis of mobility options. And refusing to take bike paths with not-a-bike is apparently eliminatory rather than making the device shoot up to the top of the ranking. Give the article opens up with > they want the rights of a pedestrian, the rights of a bicycle, and the rights of a car, all at the same time, which is an incredibly dangerous mindset. that'd be hilarious if it weren't so maddeningly lacking in self-awareness. Also > And it has Bluetooth speakers, so you can play your music from the bike itself, freeing you from having to dangerously (and in Santa Monica, illegally) ride on the street wearing headphones. fucking great, because if there's one thing I want more than an electric moped doing 30km/h on a bike path, it's that moped blaring shit music.
  - ptaipale 7y ago
    I understand that rules for bike paths depend on local jurisdiction, but why wouldn't an e-scooter fit a bike path in Venice, CA? Over here (Finland, like all of Europe) we have roads, we have bike paths, and we have pedestrian pavements. E-scooters are always good for bike paths, and if they move faster than 15 km/h, they are not to be ridden in pedestrian areas, only bike paths, even if they are not exactly bikes. If there is a road, a bike path and a pavement, each group has their own lane. If there's only a road, everyone uses it, with pedestrians on the side and bikes next. If there's a road and a pavement, then pedestrians and slow e-scooters use pavement and bicycles and fast e-scooters use the road. If there is only road and bike path, motor vehicles use the road and everyone else uses the bike path, with pedestrians on the side. I do agree what you say about music blasting mopeds...
    - 7y ago
leetbulb 7y ago
Recently used e-scooters while visiting Detroit. They were hit or miss and hard to find a handful that actually worked (charged, maint., etc) near each other. However, when they did work, it was a pleasant experience. While it was interesting, I can't say that I'd prefer it over walking or public transportation. Also, South Park definitely nailed it.
newfocogi 7y ago
Does anyone know who the manufacturer of the “Wheels” scooter/bike is? That design appeals to me much more than the standing scooters.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  I think this[1] is the one "Wheels" uses but it's pricey and sold by a UK company though it appears they ship to the US for a flat rate £10. There's also this one[2] which is a similar design and just as pricey. [1] http://i-walk.co.uk/product/urban-2-foldable-electric-scooter http://i-walk.co.uk/product/urban-2-foldable-electric-scoote... [2] https://onemileusa.com/ https://onemileusa.com/
mocha_nate 7y ago
So the #1 scooter is not a scooter? Also, some cities are banning those pedestrian focused areas. In Austin, they banned ebikes and scooters from our waterfront area that has a 10 mile walkway around it. I ride scooters in austin, tx every weekend. Its half as cheap as a lyft and there are lots of competitors. Here’s my top two: 1. Bird - cheaper per mile and pretty reliable 2. Lime - often faster than the others, but more expensive and sometimes have minor defects (braking issues, throttle delay, etc)
- anchpop 7y ago
  We used to have both brands on my school's campus. I found the lime app on android to be very buggy (crashing, not letting me park my scooter, etc.), not sure if that has changed.
  - asdff 7y ago
    They fixed the app but it can be slowish to respond if you just pulled it out of your pocket. There was a period of time where I could unlock a scooter, close the app, and get a free ride.
justaguyhere 7y ago
During the single day of this test, I found three Wheels with intentionally cut brake lines WTF is wrong with people? I understand these things are annoying and litter sidewalks, but intentionally cutting brakes to harm someone? Jeez, this is just shitty behavior
- toyg 7y ago
  Evil and insane people unfortunately do exist. Some of the failures of modern technology are directly related to refusing or ignoring this inconvenient truth.
  - bryanlarsen 7y ago
    And some of the worst abuses of power and technology have come from assuming that evil people are relatively common rather than extremely rare.
    - toyg 7y ago
      Sadly, crime is fundamentally asymmetric: a small number of bad actors can inflict damage and pain on a large number of victims. This is particularly well-known in the domain of public urban facilities, where everything can be assumed to suffer vandalism or sabotage at any given time. You only need a handful of thugs to have a “gang” that can effectively demolish anything fairly quickly, including facilities used by hundreds or thousands of people. Defensive design, in this domain, is not just warranted but necessary.
- cjrp 7y ago
  > Jeez, this is just shitty behavior Also, manslaughter.
  - anchpop 7y ago
    If it's done with malice and forethought, is it not just murder?
- 7y ago
twoquestions 7y ago
Is there a cargo scooter/bike that can carry groceries? I'm not asking for more cargo than I can carry in my hands, but I can't imagine carrying more than a gallon of milk home in one of these.
- notatoad 7y ago
  Any of them, if you own a backpack
  - imtringued 7y ago
    That sounds awful.
- icebraining 7y ago
  The Jump bikes (now owned by Uber) have a front basket, I think you could carry a gallon of milk in there: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2JfovJ9ePnfvHQI3SyuAgZx-teA=/0x0:1050x700/1200x800/filters:focal(208x169:376x337)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/59977825/jump_bikes_004_1050x700.0.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2JfovJ9ePnfvHQI3SyuAgZx-teA=...
andrewla 7y ago
Maybe I'm coming into this with low expectations; the best we have in NYC is the CitiBikes (by Motivate) that are strictly human powered, dock-based, and not cheap. But I love these scooters and would vote for any candidate for mayor that made it a priority to remove the blocks preventing these things from being issued. When I was in Venice on business, I used all of these scooters (except the 'Wheels', which to me looked silly; I could pick up an electric bike, which were also everywhere, if I wanted to sit down). All of the scooters I used (the same ones in the article) worked fantastically well, I never hit a geofence or had a problem finding one when I needed one, and they are all amazingly cheap. I never got in or witnessed a crash; the scooters don't go fast enough that falling off is a big deal anyway, based on my experience having to hop off one when I got myself into a pickle.
- ddoran 7y ago
  I've started to see quite a few electric moped/scooters by Revel [1,2] parked around Brooklyn. [1] https://gorevel.com/ https://gorevel.com/ [2] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/05/29/shared-mini-motorcycle-company-revel-to-expand-into-brooklyn-and-queens/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/05/29/shared-mini-motorcycl...
  - andrewla 7y ago
    Yes! I've already signed up, but have yet to take one out. The only thing is that it's not a bike -- it's an actual motor vehicle that you drive on roads at normal traffic speeds, which seems vaguely terrifying to me, as I've never really driven a motorcycle of any sort.
- md2be 7y ago
  Selfish prick
  - sctb 7y ago
    Please stop breaking the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Angostura 7y ago
I was somewhat annoyed by the penalising of scooters that stopped you riding on cycle paths; presumably you aren't meant to use them on there, hence the restriction. If so, the company that limits speed to 3MPH - enough to exit the cycle path - is doing it exactly right.
- masto 7y ago
  Indeed. The ones he rated poorly were the ones that tried to prevent him from breaking Los Angeles City Municipal Code 63.44.
  - whenchamenia 7y ago
    Yes, but I like the ability to make that choice. My car is not governed, why should my scooter be? This is not unreasonble, even if inconvenient thinking.
    - Angostura 7y ago
      I would generally be in favour of restrictions that stopped cars driving on cycle lanes.
      - jfk13 7y ago
        Until there's a broken-down vehicle blocking the road, and the only way around it involves encroaching on the cycle lane (carefully!) ... but your hi-tech geofenced car forbids that, so you're stuck. Or you attempt to move out of the way of an oncoming emergency vehicle, as it's barrelling down the centre of the road to reach a dying patient ... but it needs an extra couple of feet of space that you can only give it if you move partly into the cycle lane. And your car refuses.
        lmm 7y ago
        > Or you attempt to move out of the way of an oncoming emergency vehicle, as it's barrelling down the centre of the road to reach a dying patient ... but it needs an extra couple of feet of space that you can only give it if you move partly into the cycle lane. And your car refuses. Do you think geofencing cars out of bike lanes would lead to more or fewer deaths overall, when you include all the cases of drivers killing cyclists that would be prevented?
beat 7y ago
Articles like this are why I love the internet. That was a fun (and informative) read!
masto 7y ago
The headline makes it sound like they tested all the scooters you can buy, but it's specifically talking about 5 rental scooter brands in one location: "We’ve restricted our entrants to scooter-type vehicles available on the street for rent in Venice, CA as of May 13, 2019. For this test, that means Bird, Lime, Lyft, Jump (Uber), and Wheels are in the game."
sly010 7y ago
Good write up. Don't see the cangoroo sticks on the list.
alchemism 7y ago
Ive been using an ‘adult’ push scooter for five years in an urban environment. This year I encountered the electric rentals for the first time, and bought a Xiaomi m365 (aka the Bird scooter). I also have a normal bike. They serve different purposes. Either version of a scooter is safer. I’ve been in a few situations where I’ve simply stepped off the plank and become an instant pedestrian, to avoid cars which would have wiped me out on a bicycle.
- emerongi 7y ago
  Is the m365 good? I was thinking about getting one a few days ago. I usually cycle, but a scooter would be nice for smaller distances around the city.
  - mikestew 7y ago
    (Not OP, have owned one for two weeks of daily seven mile commuting.) Good as in, "in comparison to similarly-priced scooters"? Yes, it's probably your best choice in that segment. You can spend a few hundred more for the M365 Pro or Ninebot ES4, but you're mainly getting more battery. Parts are no problem, as I'm pretty sure you could build a complete replicate from Alibaba, right down to the screws and molded rubber bits. Build quality is decent, but not great. Overall, better than I expected for $400 off Amazon. Now, is it "iPhone good"? Quality-wise, no. It's not very water-resistant, for starters, so it won't like a Seattle winter. The 250W motor is probably fine for tourist rentals, but it can be a bit anemic on hills. The mobile app integration is usable, but pretty meh. It's a 2nd-tier Android phone: good enough for the purposes of most people, for the money spent. I have no complaints with the M365, other than questionable durability. Therefore, because I see making a habit of this scooter thing and water-resistance is a consideration, I have one from Boosted (the e-skateboard folks) pre-ordered. Should be iPhone/Pixel quality, and priced similarly ($1600).
  - cheeze 7y ago
    Also not OP, have owned one for 6 months. The xiaomi is the best thing I've spent 500 bucks on in the past year. It's been great because it works extremely well for me but it may not work as well for you. The difference between one being great and bad is super close IMO and totally depends on your parameters. In my case; I live in a big city that doesn't have rental scooters. We have E-Bikes but they are hard to find, especially during a commute. I walk to work - about 3 miles round trip. Some hills but nothing too bad. In my case, the scooter has replaced my commute and driven it down to just a few minutes. My work has a bike locker room, and I loop a cable lock through the wheel and go. Super super convenient. Range is always a lie with these things, which can make things hard. My scooter has about 50% battery left when I get home, but I can't imagine having to push this thing around if it was dead. That would suck. Speed on the scooter is pretty good, when the battery is lower it has some trouble on the hills, but it always gets me up them, just a little slow (I'm about 200... If you're lighter the scooter will be noticeably faster) My city is reasonably safe but we have a good amount of bike theft. I lock it up at a few local businesses in the bike rack, but wouldn't just do it anywhere. I factor the chance of being stolen into the price, and I'm not super worried if it does happen. I have a u lock mounted on the "steering column" which works well. Carrying the scooter is a little unwieldy. You can kind of roll it on one wheel while it's collapsed, but it's like 30lbs and kind of bulky. I have no problem bringing it from my apartment through the lobby and outside, but it would suck to say... Carry this through an airport or something (which you couldn't do if you wanted, but regardless...) I'm able to get to my friends places easier by scootering over. I often drive down to the water and have a beer by the waterfront. So, in my case the scooter has been AMAZING. But... I live in the city, have a commute within range, have a convenient spot to park, etc. The bad: range could be better (there are better scooters for this), transporting it is a bit bulky, parking can suck if you don't have a plan. Everyone will hate you (cars, peds, bikers) but oh well. If you get stuck on a hill, it's gonna suck to get it up the hill. Flat tires are possible but easily avoidable. Bumpy sidewalks can pose a problem with the 8 inch wheels, although doing a little hop is fine (pulling the front wheel up an inch) to counter. If you do get one, consider getting the m365s, it should become more available over the next few months. If you get the m365, buy a s display and swap it. Buy some 3d printed handlebar spacers. Generate a firmware for it on the site (on mobile or I'd link, easily googleable though). Regardless of model, get some tire slime for any preemptive punctures.
jerkstate 7y ago
This article seems to be ranking how well the scooters comply with the local GPS based speed restrictions which don’t apply everywhere. I’ve only ridden a couple of them but I prefer the old generation Lime, it seems to be the quickest accelerating with highest top speed and the disc brake is better than other options that have regenerative only. My area doesn’t have GPS based speed restrictions though (they do have GPS based parking restrictions)
andimm 7y ago
As I understand the speed is throttled on bike ways. So is it only allowed to ride e-scooters on the sidewalk? In Switzerland e-scooters are categorized similar like Mopeds, so they are allowed (or required) to use the bike lanes or the street. I wonder how this is handled in other countries as I just was in Spain and we saw a lot of e-scooters and I wondered what the rules are there.
diehunde 7y ago
Any recommendations on a good scooter to buy?
- asdff 7y ago
  I was about to pick one up last year but held off, figured my bike was collecting too much dust. The Xiaomi m365 was the standout though. The air tires make a huge difference in comfort. I'd actually get sore with the hard rubber wheels on the other segway models I you scoot for distance. Plus if you brake hard they get flat spots and start thudding, ruining the ride. All the companies have a couple different models in circulation, try them out before you buy!
- nkaviani 7y ago
  I own a Glion Dolly (https://glion-scooter.com/dolly/ https://glion-scooter.com/dolly/) and my girlfriend has a Segway ES2. I would advocate for rubber tires despite the discomfort. the moment you get a flat tire is pretty much the end of your scooter's lifetime as it is very difficult to fix it. I like Glion for its design and ease of carrying, but Segway wins in every other aspect. Depends on your budget. If you are willing to spend a grand or more then Mercane WideWheel probably tops the market right now.
dkrich 7y ago
So, this is a comparison about how lenient various scooter companies are when it comes to allowing use on restricted bike lanes in a particular city. This article applies to people living in Venice Beach who want to ride these in bike lanes and not much else. The bike looks cool though.
mikestew 7y ago
Well, "rode all the e-scooters one can rent". Spend your own hard-earned, and better options abound even if you just buy the retail version of the Xiaomi/Ninebot that Bird/Lime use because it won't be geo-fenced. And I'd rather walk than ride the clown bicycle that was the #1 pick, and I say this as one who rides a Xiaomi standup scooter to work every day.
fulafel 7y ago
Sounds like the author missed the existence of the real road legal ev scooters (like Vespa Elettrica, Unu etc) and complains that the skateboard-with-handlebars type ones don't do miracles.
nkaviani 7y ago
The title is misleading. the OP tried well "most" of the "rental" e-scooters available in his geo-location. I was hoping for a comparison of the brands. On the Scooter vs Bike discussion, my GF and I discussed the idea of getting bikes or scooters to commute to work and I gotta tell ya, scooters won by a huge margin. Biggest benefit is that they are smaller in size. we can roll them up in a closet, take them into the transit, and heck even put them in the trunk of an uber car when needed. we dont need to to pay for bike room fees and most cases can take them up to the office and store them under our desks. the one point that I totally agree with is that scooter riders in this mixed mindset of wanting "the rights of a pedestrian, the rights of a bicycle, and the rights of a car, all at the same time", and yeah most of the accidents I have seen come from this misconception of which category they really belong to!
ezoe 7y ago
I really want a high-quality non-e kick scooter. After the trend passed out, there aren't many high quality kick scooters manufactured.
- monort 7y ago
  Oxelo Town 9 EF V2. It's a little too heavy though.
  - ezoe 7y ago
    It looks like it's not using pneumatic tires. and it's rather difficult to purchase from Japan for no official dealers in Japan.
neverminder 7y ago
So he tested a bunch of low end scooters and concluded that all of them suck. otherwise the sky is still blue. Some people may not realize that all of the rental companies only stock cheap low end scooters. In general those scooters are slow, have shitty brakes, suspensions, tires, etc. The scooter that I have has large deck, pneumatic tires, excellent suspension, dual hydraulic disc brakes and can go up to 65 km/h.

143 points by ourmandave 7y ago

I took an Uber scooter yesterday and it was the most bone rattling experience I’ve had in a while. Not sure who designed these but there is a reason bicycles and cars have had pneumatic tires for a century, now. Wheels look interesting and I hope they extend their service area to south Florida.

josefresco 7y ago

Good write up. I wonder if people would have such a problem with these scooters, if they simply sat upright when left instead of falling over. Most photos I see of these scooters, are "piles" of them, or them strewn on the sidewalk. Even with kickstands, I doubt users would leave them in neat order - however I wonder if there's an engineering solution that would prevent them from falling, or at least encourage people to be neat.

bamboo_7 7y ago
In theory, some of them have gyroscope things that can send a signal if they are not upright.

checker 7y ago

This is the first I've heard of people tampering with the brake systems - it's incredibly malicious. I understand some people might be frustrated by the scooters, but is manslaughter really the right way to go about it?

Shikadi 7y ago
Someone detached my brake cables on my bike locked right next to a hill that lead to the busiest road in the area. I noticed before I even got on the bike, but come on people.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Wow! That's something I do not normally even check. Then again, I don't leave my bike out of sight but the fact that someone would even think of doing something like that is pretty close to an attempt at murder.
coldtea 7y ago
It worked in the French revolution!
docdeek 7y ago
Story here in Lyon, France, yesterday about a less-dangerous attack on the electric scooters: instead of cutting the brake cables, vandals are painting over the QR code instead. No QR code to scan means no useable scooter. Link in French: https://www.leprogres.fr/rhone-69/2019/06/10/a-lyon-les-trottinettes-electriques-immobilisees-en-un-coup-de-peinture https://www.leprogres.fr/rhone-69/2019/06/10/a-lyon-les-trot...
- md2be 7y ago
  I like it - is there a way to block the antenna ?
- mmcwilliams 7y ago
  To be fair, QR codes are a fairly fragile technology for something like that. If instead of destroying them, someone replaced the codes with a malicious link the outcome could be worse.
  - GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
    Great idea! I'll go print some QR stickers tonight
davedx 7y ago
Yeah, having ridden Birds around Paris at 25 km/h without ever considering this (I think they had lever brakes with cables too), this is terrifying. People are crazy.
- baud147258 7y ago
  I hope you weren't on the sidewalk at this speed
  - yardie 7y ago
    They have true dedicated bike lanes in Paris. Taken from the car lanes to reduce most streets to 2 lanes. The only things allowed on the sidewalks are people, pets, prams, and cafe tables and chairs.
    - derefr 7y ago
      How about those moped-shaped electric wheelchair buggies? (I’ve always wondered what the proper “lane” for those is; they go fast enough and have enough momentum that they’re dangerous on the sidewalk, but they’re unprotected enough that it’s dangerous for them to be in the bike lane, let alone a car lane.) ...or do those even exist outside of America (and maybe the ex-Commonwealth)?
      - Luc 7y ago
        They're considered equivalent to pedestrians and should use the sidewalk at walking speed, unless it's blocked. They shouldn't be on the bicycle path. According to French rules of the road, that is. https://ressources-ergo.com/legislation-et-fauteuil-roulant-ou-doivent-circuler-les-personnes-en-fauteuil-roulant-dans-lespace-public/ https://ressources-ergo.com/legislation-et-fauteuil-roulant-...
      - jdietrich 7y ago
        Here in the UK, we have two categories of mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs. If they're capable of no more than 4mph, they can be used on the pavement; if they're capable of more than 4mph but less than 8mph, they can be used on the road without a license but they do need to be registered. https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs-rules https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs...
md2be 7y ago
Pure BS, The first manslaughter will be due to the scooter that runs into a kid. Stay off the sidewalks.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  When you find yourself posting in every comment thread of a single submission to grind your axe, it's probably time to look for a new submission to participate in or take a break from HN.
teachrdan 7y ago
It is all but impossible to get injured due to this vandalism. If the brake cables are cut, you will be unable to even mount the scooter. It's the same UX as on a bicycle: The rider must (unconsciously) press the brake lever to keep the bike in place while getting on it. You'll know right away if the cable is cut--before you even start your ride.
- vk23 7y ago
  I don't think thats how most people mount a bicycle. You can easily get on it without touching the brakes. After all while you are still touching the ground you are breaking it.

nicholasfoden 7y ago

Wow this page loads a LOT of js

AJ007 7y ago

The legal liability for these companies must be huge. I’ve seen toddlers on these things with their parents, more than once. Kids very often.

brokenmachine 7y ago
They probably have it in their fine print that you are not allowed passengers. They'd be stupid not to really.

sporksmith 7y ago

Seems like the main flaw in the ones the author labeled "awful" was a geofence policy that limited the top speed on a "bike path", or locked them out of it altogether. Makes it a bit difficult to generalize their conclusions, especially without knowing more about the path to be able to judge whether that policy is reasonable (and/or mandated by the city).

alistairSH 7y ago
The Venice beach bike path is a "standard" mixed-use path. Wide enough for bikes to pass in opposite directions - total width is a bit wider than a full size pick-up truck. It's fairly twisty and bordered by sand on both sides, so if you run over the edge, you probably fall on your face. As for appropriate speeds, a jog is about 5mph. That sounds reasonable and safe for a small-wheeled scooter. A townie/cruiser bicycle will do 10mph without too much effort, so that could be the upper bound too. Much faster with those small wheels seems dangerous regardless of location.

lmm 7y ago

> We’ve restricted our entrants to scooter-type vehicles (as opposed to e-assist bicycles) And then the conclusion is that the most bicycle-like one is best because it's more bicycle-like. Seems like a category arbitrage rather than a fair analysis of mobility options.

masklinn 7y ago
> And then the conclusion is that the most bicycle-like one is best because it's more bicycle-like. Seems like a category arbitrage rather than a fair analysis of mobility options. And refusing to take bike paths with not-a-bike is apparently eliminatory rather than making the device shoot up to the top of the ranking. Give the article opens up with > they want the rights of a pedestrian, the rights of a bicycle, and the rights of a car, all at the same time, which is an incredibly dangerous mindset. that'd be hilarious if it weren't so maddeningly lacking in self-awareness. Also > And it has Bluetooth speakers, so you can play your music from the bike itself, freeing you from having to dangerously (and in Santa Monica, illegally) ride on the street wearing headphones. fucking great, because if there's one thing I want more than an electric moped doing 30km/h on a bike path, it's that moped blaring shit music.
- ptaipale 7y ago
  I understand that rules for bike paths depend on local jurisdiction, but why wouldn't an e-scooter fit a bike path in Venice, CA? Over here (Finland, like all of Europe) we have roads, we have bike paths, and we have pedestrian pavements. E-scooters are always good for bike paths, and if they move faster than 15 km/h, they are not to be ridden in pedestrian areas, only bike paths, even if they are not exactly bikes. If there is a road, a bike path and a pavement, each group has their own lane. If there's only a road, everyone uses it, with pedestrians on the side and bikes next. If there's a road and a pavement, then pedestrians and slow e-scooters use pavement and bicycles and fast e-scooters use the road. If there is only road and bike path, motor vehicles use the road and everyone else uses the bike path, with pedestrians on the side. I do agree what you say about music blasting mopeds...
  - 7y ago

leetbulb 7y ago

Recently used e-scooters while visiting Detroit. They were hit or miss and hard to find a handful that actually worked (charged, maint., etc) near each other. However, when they did work, it was a pleasant experience. While it was interesting, I can't say that I'd prefer it over walking or public transportation. Also, South Park definitely nailed it.

newfocogi 7y ago

Does anyone know who the manufacturer of the “Wheels” scooter/bike is? That design appeals to me much more than the standing scooters.

elliekelly 7y ago
I think this[1] is the one "Wheels" uses but it's pricey and sold by a UK company though it appears they ship to the US for a flat rate £10. There's also this one[2] which is a similar design and just as pricey. [1] http://i-walk.co.uk/product/urban-2-foldable-electric-scooter http://i-walk.co.uk/product/urban-2-foldable-electric-scoote... [2] https://onemileusa.com/ https://onemileusa.com/

mocha_nate 7y ago

So the #1 scooter is not a scooter? Also, some cities are banning those pedestrian focused areas. In Austin, they banned ebikes and scooters from our waterfront area that has a 10 mile walkway around it. I ride scooters in austin, tx every weekend. Its half as cheap as a lyft and there are lots of competitors. Here’s my top two: 1. Bird - cheaper per mile and pretty reliable 2. Lime - often faster than the others, but more expensive and sometimes have minor defects (braking issues, throttle delay, etc)

anchpop 7y ago
We used to have both brands on my school's campus. I found the lime app on android to be very buggy (crashing, not letting me park my scooter, etc.), not sure if that has changed.
- asdff 7y ago
  They fixed the app but it can be slowish to respond if you just pulled it out of your pocket. There was a period of time where I could unlock a scooter, close the app, and get a free ride.

justaguyhere 7y ago

During the single day of this test, I found three Wheels with intentionally cut brake lines WTF is wrong with people? I understand these things are annoying and litter sidewalks, but intentionally cutting brakes to harm someone? Jeez, this is just shitty behavior

toyg 7y ago
Evil and insane people unfortunately do exist. Some of the failures of modern technology are directly related to refusing or ignoring this inconvenient truth.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  And some of the worst abuses of power and technology have come from assuming that evil people are relatively common rather than extremely rare.
  - toyg 7y ago
    Sadly, crime is fundamentally asymmetric: a small number of bad actors can inflict damage and pain on a large number of victims. This is particularly well-known in the domain of public urban facilities, where everything can be assumed to suffer vandalism or sabotage at any given time. You only need a handful of thugs to have a “gang” that can effectively demolish anything fairly quickly, including facilities used by hundreds or thousands of people. Defensive design, in this domain, is not just warranted but necessary.
cjrp 7y ago
> Jeez, this is just shitty behavior Also, manslaughter.
- anchpop 7y ago
  If it's done with malice and forethought, is it not just murder?
7y ago

twoquestions 7y ago

Is there a cargo scooter/bike that can carry groceries? I'm not asking for more cargo than I can carry in my hands, but I can't imagine carrying more than a gallon of milk home in one of these.

notatoad 7y ago
Any of them, if you own a backpack
- imtringued 7y ago
  That sounds awful.
icebraining 7y ago
The Jump bikes (now owned by Uber) have a front basket, I think you could carry a gallon of milk in there: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2JfovJ9ePnfvHQI3SyuAgZx-teA=/0x0:1050x700/1200x800/filters:focal(208x169:376x337)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/59977825/jump_bikes_004_1050x700.0.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2JfovJ9ePnfvHQI3SyuAgZx-teA=...

andrewla 7y ago

Maybe I'm coming into this with low expectations; the best we have in NYC is the CitiBikes (by Motivate) that are strictly human powered, dock-based, and not cheap. But I love these scooters and would vote for any candidate for mayor that made it a priority to remove the blocks preventing these things from being issued. When I was in Venice on business, I used all of these scooters (except the 'Wheels', which to me looked silly; I could pick up an electric bike, which were also everywhere, if I wanted to sit down). All of the scooters I used (the same ones in the article) worked fantastically well, I never hit a geofence or had a problem finding one when I needed one, and they are all amazingly cheap. I never got in or witnessed a crash; the scooters don't go fast enough that falling off is a big deal anyway, based on my experience having to hop off one when I got myself into a pickle.

ddoran 7y ago
I've started to see quite a few electric moped/scooters by Revel [1,2] parked around Brooklyn. [1] https://gorevel.com/ https://gorevel.com/ [2] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/05/29/shared-mini-motorcycle-company-revel-to-expand-into-brooklyn-and-queens/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/05/29/shared-mini-motorcycl...
- andrewla 7y ago
  Yes! I've already signed up, but have yet to take one out. The only thing is that it's not a bike -- it's an actual motor vehicle that you drive on roads at normal traffic speeds, which seems vaguely terrifying to me, as I've never really driven a motorcycle of any sort.
md2be 7y ago
Selfish prick
- sctb 7y ago
  Please stop breaking the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Angostura 7y ago

I was somewhat annoyed by the penalising of scooters that stopped you riding on cycle paths; presumably you aren't meant to use them on there, hence the restriction. If so, the company that limits speed to 3MPH - enough to exit the cycle path - is doing it exactly right.

masto 7y ago
Indeed. The ones he rated poorly were the ones that tried to prevent him from breaking Los Angeles City Municipal Code 63.44.
- whenchamenia 7y ago
  Yes, but I like the ability to make that choice. My car is not governed, why should my scooter be? This is not unreasonble, even if inconvenient thinking.
  - Angostura 7y ago
    I would generally be in favour of restrictions that stopped cars driving on cycle lanes.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      Until there's a broken-down vehicle blocking the road, and the only way around it involves encroaching on the cycle lane (carefully!) ... but your hi-tech geofenced car forbids that, so you're stuck. Or you attempt to move out of the way of an oncoming emergency vehicle, as it's barrelling down the centre of the road to reach a dying patient ... but it needs an extra couple of feet of space that you can only give it if you move partly into the cycle lane. And your car refuses.
      - lmm 7y ago
        > Or you attempt to move out of the way of an oncoming emergency vehicle, as it's barrelling down the centre of the road to reach a dying patient ... but it needs an extra couple of feet of space that you can only give it if you move partly into the cycle lane. And your car refuses. Do you think geofencing cars out of bike lanes would lead to more or fewer deaths overall, when you include all the cases of drivers killing cyclists that would be prevented?

beat 7y ago

Articles like this are why I love the internet. That was a fun (and informative) read!

masto 7y ago

The headline makes it sound like they tested all the scooters you can buy, but it's specifically talking about 5 rental scooter brands in one location: "We’ve restricted our entrants to scooter-type vehicles available on the street for rent in Venice, CA as of May 13, 2019. For this test, that means Bird, Lime, Lyft, Jump (Uber), and Wheels are in the game."

sly010 7y ago

Good write up. Don't see the cangoroo sticks on the list.

alchemism 7y ago

Ive been using an ‘adult’ push scooter for five years in an urban environment. This year I encountered the electric rentals for the first time, and bought a Xiaomi m365 (aka the Bird scooter). I also have a normal bike. They serve different purposes. Either version of a scooter is safer. I’ve been in a few situations where I’ve simply stepped off the plank and become an instant pedestrian, to avoid cars which would have wiped me out on a bicycle.

emerongi 7y ago
Is the m365 good? I was thinking about getting one a few days ago. I usually cycle, but a scooter would be nice for smaller distances around the city.
- mikestew 7y ago
  (Not OP, have owned one for two weeks of daily seven mile commuting.) Good as in, "in comparison to similarly-priced scooters"? Yes, it's probably your best choice in that segment. You can spend a few hundred more for the M365 Pro or Ninebot ES4, but you're mainly getting more battery. Parts are no problem, as I'm pretty sure you could build a complete replicate from Alibaba, right down to the screws and molded rubber bits. Build quality is decent, but not great. Overall, better than I expected for $400 off Amazon. Now, is it "iPhone good"? Quality-wise, no. It's not very water-resistant, for starters, so it won't like a Seattle winter. The 250W motor is probably fine for tourist rentals, but it can be a bit anemic on hills. The mobile app integration is usable, but pretty meh. It's a 2nd-tier Android phone: good enough for the purposes of most people, for the money spent. I have no complaints with the M365, other than questionable durability. Therefore, because I see making a habit of this scooter thing and water-resistance is a consideration, I have one from Boosted (the e-skateboard folks) pre-ordered. Should be iPhone/Pixel quality, and priced similarly ($1600).
- cheeze 7y ago
  Also not OP, have owned one for 6 months. The xiaomi is the best thing I've spent 500 bucks on in the past year. It's been great because it works extremely well for me but it may not work as well for you. The difference between one being great and bad is super close IMO and totally depends on your parameters. In my case; I live in a big city that doesn't have rental scooters. We have E-Bikes but they are hard to find, especially during a commute. I walk to work - about 3 miles round trip. Some hills but nothing too bad. In my case, the scooter has replaced my commute and driven it down to just a few minutes. My work has a bike locker room, and I loop a cable lock through the wheel and go. Super super convenient. Range is always a lie with these things, which can make things hard. My scooter has about 50% battery left when I get home, but I can't imagine having to push this thing around if it was dead. That would suck. Speed on the scooter is pretty good, when the battery is lower it has some trouble on the hills, but it always gets me up them, just a little slow (I'm about 200... If you're lighter the scooter will be noticeably faster) My city is reasonably safe but we have a good amount of bike theft. I lock it up at a few local businesses in the bike rack, but wouldn't just do it anywhere. I factor the chance of being stolen into the price, and I'm not super worried if it does happen. I have a u lock mounted on the "steering column" which works well. Carrying the scooter is a little unwieldy. You can kind of roll it on one wheel while it's collapsed, but it's like 30lbs and kind of bulky. I have no problem bringing it from my apartment through the lobby and outside, but it would suck to say... Carry this through an airport or something (which you couldn't do if you wanted, but regardless...) I'm able to get to my friends places easier by scootering over. I often drive down to the water and have a beer by the waterfront. So, in my case the scooter has been AMAZING. But... I live in the city, have a commute within range, have a convenient spot to park, etc. The bad: range could be better (there are better scooters for this), transporting it is a bit bulky, parking can suck if you don't have a plan. Everyone will hate you (cars, peds, bikers) but oh well. If you get stuck on a hill, it's gonna suck to get it up the hill. Flat tires are possible but easily avoidable. Bumpy sidewalks can pose a problem with the 8 inch wheels, although doing a little hop is fine (pulling the front wheel up an inch) to counter. If you do get one, consider getting the m365s, it should become more available over the next few months. If you get the m365, buy a s display and swap it. Buy some 3d printed handlebar spacers. Generate a firmware for it on the site (on mobile or I'd link, easily googleable though). Regardless of model, get some tire slime for any preemptive punctures.

jerkstate 7y ago

This article seems to be ranking how well the scooters comply with the local GPS based speed restrictions which don’t apply everywhere. I’ve only ridden a couple of them but I prefer the old generation Lime, it seems to be the quickest accelerating with highest top speed and the disc brake is better than other options that have regenerative only. My area doesn’t have GPS based speed restrictions though (they do have GPS based parking restrictions)

andimm 7y ago

As I understand the speed is throttled on bike ways. So is it only allowed to ride e-scooters on the sidewalk? In Switzerland e-scooters are categorized similar like Mopeds, so they are allowed (or required) to use the bike lanes or the street. I wonder how this is handled in other countries as I just was in Spain and we saw a lot of e-scooters and I wondered what the rules are there.

diehunde 7y ago

Any recommendations on a good scooter to buy?

asdff 7y ago
I was about to pick one up last year but held off, figured my bike was collecting too much dust. The Xiaomi m365 was the standout though. The air tires make a huge difference in comfort. I'd actually get sore with the hard rubber wheels on the other segway models I you scoot for distance. Plus if you brake hard they get flat spots and start thudding, ruining the ride. All the companies have a couple different models in circulation, try them out before you buy!
nkaviani 7y ago
I own a Glion Dolly (https://glion-scooter.com/dolly/ https://glion-scooter.com/dolly/) and my girlfriend has a Segway ES2. I would advocate for rubber tires despite the discomfort. the moment you get a flat tire is pretty much the end of your scooter's lifetime as it is very difficult to fix it. I like Glion for its design and ease of carrying, but Segway wins in every other aspect. Depends on your budget. If you are willing to spend a grand or more then Mercane WideWheel probably tops the market right now.

dkrich 7y ago

So, this is a comparison about how lenient various scooter companies are when it comes to allowing use on restricted bike lanes in a particular city. This article applies to people living in Venice Beach who want to ride these in bike lanes and not much else. The bike looks cool though.

mikestew 7y ago

Well, "rode all the e-scooters one can rent". Spend your own hard-earned, and better options abound even if you just buy the retail version of the Xiaomi/Ninebot that Bird/Lime use because it won't be geo-fenced. And I'd rather walk than ride the clown bicycle that was the #1 pick, and I say this as one who rides a Xiaomi standup scooter to work every day.

fulafel 7y ago

Sounds like the author missed the existence of the real road legal ev scooters (like Vespa Elettrica, Unu etc) and complains that the skateboard-with-handlebars type ones don't do miracles.

nkaviani 7y ago

The title is misleading. the OP tried well "most" of the "rental" e-scooters available in his geo-location. I was hoping for a comparison of the brands. On the Scooter vs Bike discussion, my GF and I discussed the idea of getting bikes or scooters to commute to work and I gotta tell ya, scooters won by a huge margin. Biggest benefit is that they are smaller in size. we can roll them up in a closet, take them into the transit, and heck even put them in the trunk of an uber car when needed. we dont need to to pay for bike room fees and most cases can take them up to the office and store them under our desks. the one point that I totally agree with is that scooter riders in this mixed mindset of wanting "the rights of a pedestrian, the rights of a bicycle, and the rights of a car, all at the same time", and yeah most of the accidents I have seen come from this misconception of which category they really belong to!

ezoe 7y ago

I really want a high-quality non-e kick scooter. After the trend passed out, there aren't many high quality kick scooters manufactured.

monort 7y ago
Oxelo Town 9 EF V2. It's a little too heavy though.
- ezoe 7y ago
  It looks like it's not using pneumatic tires. and it's rather difficult to purchase from Japan for no official dealers in Japan.

neverminder 7y ago

So he tested a bunch of low end scooters and concluded that all of them suck. otherwise the sky is still blue. Some people may not realize that all of the rental companies only stock cheap low end scooters. In general those scooters are slow, have shitty brakes, suspensions, tires, etc. The scooter that I have has large deck, pneumatic tires, excellent suspension, dual hydraulic disc brakes and can go up to 65 km/h.