21 ms·

Hundreds of thousands take to Hong Kong streets against controversial bill

289 points by cow9 7y ago

yorwba 7y ago
See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137955
enraged_camel 7y ago
When I was in HK a few years ago, there was a lot of annoyance amongst the general public that GovHK was starting to get dominated by pro-China individuals. So I get the impression this bill is their doing.
cwperkins 7y ago
Whatever side you are on here just remember, Freedom of assembly is such an important right to hold dear. With the censorious nature of the Chinese Communist Party, I fear what the implications of a bill like this could lead to.
- runciblespoon 7y ago
  > Whatever side you are on here just remember, Freedom of assembly is such an important right to hold dear. With the censorious nature of the Chinese Communist Party, I fear what the implications of a bill like this could lead to. It's ironic that Hong Kong had even less freedoms when it was a British colony.
  - simonh 7y ago
    They had a lot more freedoms than those in mainland China, and quit reasonably want it to stay that way.
  - yorwba 7y ago
    The PRC government certainly didn't help. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-push-against-hong-kong-elections-in-50s.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...
- Tharkun 7y ago
  Also remember what happened during the mass protests 30 years ago. Stay safe.
- SubiculumCode 7y ago
  To me its quite.clear there is one right side in this, and it.lies with the people marching.
hkai 7y ago
Just finished the 8 hour march. That was insane. But the law is even more insane. A North Korea-like totalitarian state that puts people in camps can just snatch any lawyer, businessman our journalist and take them away without trial and without revealing their location. Imagine people at startups working in sensitive areas like DNA testing, biotech, finance or data mining can be taken away and forced to reveal data, trade secrets, or forced to collaborate, under threat to their families or themselves.
- arthurcolle 7y ago
  Can you tell us more about your experiences as a participant in the march?
- cfarm 7y ago
  Do people think they'll be able to change things?
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > Do people think they'll be able to change things? An unpopular chief executive resigned in 2004 to protests half as large [1]. Beijing is at least somewhat constrained with respect to what it can openly do. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung_Chee-hwa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung_Chee-hwa
    - yorwba 7y ago
      > In 2003, more than 500,000 protesters demanded Tung to step down in the light of the proposed legislation of the Hong Kong Basic Law Article 23 and the SARS outbreak. Tung resigned in the middle of his second term on 10 March 2005. 2 years delay make attributing causality seem like a bit of a stretch. The Wikipedia article makes it sound like he resigned after losing the backing of the PRC government.
      - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
        Multiple elements weakened Tung, the most significant being his attempted pro-Beijing legislation and handling of the SARS epidemic. Those lead to a series of resignations and public dressings down. Beijing’s disapproval, while a factor, was neither the proximate nor dominant cause. Hong Kong, politically and culturally, responds to protest.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
el_cujo 7y ago
In fifteen minutes the permit to organize expires, lets hope this remains (mostly) peaceful.
ngcc_hk 7y ago
>1 million
PakG1 7y ago
This article is published in the SCMP. The SCMP was purchased some time ago by Jack Ma. There were fears from various corners that Jack Ma, being friendly with the mainland Chinese government, would influence the SCMP to have coverage that was less independent than before. So it's interesting to see this published by SCMP.
- heraclius 7y ago
  The SCMP seems to have been fairly vocal. There doesn’t seem to be anything that would stop the removal of all the critical journalists though, so I am somewhat confused.
  - loyukfai 7y ago
    Even among the pro-Beijing businesses and the establishment, there are serious concerns about this. Business people want to make money, foreign companies have started to divest from China, perhaps Hong Kong would be next? Passing this law may akin to killing the goose for the golden eggs.
- avocado4 7y ago
  SCMP has been pushing CCP propaganda since Jack Ma took over, it's just more subtle than GlobalTimes/XinhuaNet or other official sources. Not covering this protest would have been immediately obvious. You have to be a very subtle troll to make propaganda work abroad. It's similar to YC getting to open a China program in exchange for getting a few Mainland mods on HN. Any anti-China posts do come up to front page but then disappear much faster than everything else (same will happen to this one).
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    "It's similar to YC getting to open a China program in exchange for getting a few Mainland mods on HN. Any anti-China posts do come up to front page but then disappear much faster than everything else (same will happen to this one)." So this is one big statement. Is it true, or are you just guessing at that? Is it common knowledge, or suspicion? Where are we with the validity of that statement?
terenceng2010 7y ago
It might not change HK government attitude after all, but it shows that Hong Kongers align with western values - no one should live under the fear of arbitrary prosecution.
- math_and_stuff 7y ago
  Why say 'align with western values' instead of 'respect human rights'? Freedom of speech and assembly are encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
  - intopieces 7y ago
    Because the issue they are protesting is extradition and the rule of law being maintained; HK has a western style rule of law, mainland has practically no rule of law to speak of.
    - wltprgm 7y ago
      Just to add to your comment, the Hong Kong laws being "western" is exactly why mainland want to take charge of Hong Kong It's a no brainer. And probably I will get downvoted by mentioning this. The Tiananmen Square massacre, which originated due to the protesters fighting for more freedom/human rights, from I heard from my uncle, it was because of the influence from westerners. (edit: I was talking about how western values influence the students to protest, not the way they were massacred) Furthermore, he even mentioned how the first Opium War (namely Anglo-Chinese War), WW1 and WW2 were originated from the UK/US (although I did learn about history, he still wanted to reinforce this idea). And the Holocaust (by German forces) made the Jews eventually moved to Israel and stole Palestine's land. The wars in the Middle East are caused by US as well. (edit: influenced, at least by the US) Even the wars in Russia are actually supported by the US (Sorry I am not familiar with this one) I mean, don't downvote me for no reason. edit: apparently some of you downvoted me, guess you guys are from the west anyways, don't dare to admit the history? Quoting a comment from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 > Can't beat them ...ban them (China), can't fight them...sanction them (Russia), can't get the oil...mess them (Venezula), can't make them obey...war with them (Iran)...The Born Loser.
CamelCaseName 7y ago
For anyone like me who was looking for some background on this, on Reddit, someone linked to a Vox video entitled "China is erasing its border with Hong Kong" [0]. At 15 minutes, it's a captivating introduction to the conflict. Another video (6 minutes) you might be interested in by Vox is "China's trillion dollar plan to dominate global trade" [1], which is on China Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXROXiIpvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXROXiIpvQ Edit: One great passage from the first video [0] at 11:29 says: "The [umbrella movement] protest didn't change the government's mind and it didn't immediately change anything in Hong Kong. But this spectacle of young people rising up to defend their rights from the central government of China did spark a political awakening among the many in the city who had never before paid attention. 'I think post-umbrella movement was the first time that the middle class came out and voted in droves, and voted for the opposition force.' - HK Resident"
- chii 7y ago
  The vox video paints the Belt and Road Initiative in a negative light - which i feel is wrong. Why shouldn't China be allowed to invest and gain soft power? Why shouldn't they be allowed to make deals with countries the US deems 'undemocratic'?
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    If you're making deals with a government that is undemocratic, you're making a deal with the government, but not with the people. At that point, the deal is probably going to be one that benefits the government, but not the people. Countries do that, when it is in their best interest to do so. But the US (rightly) gets criticism for doing such things. If it's right to criticize the US for such actions, it's also right to criticize China for them.
    - Youden 7y ago
      > If you're making deals with a government that is undemocratic, you're making a deal with the government, but not with the people. I think a better way to phrase "a government that is undemocratic" as "a dictatorship". The idea that democracy is the only system of government that can possibly represent the people is a horrendously American view of the world. To show an example that counters the "everything that isn't democracy is oppressive" claims I usually hear, have a look at Lichtenstein (which admittedly is partly democratic but is also a constitutional monarchy), where the people voted to give the monarchy _more_ power and refused to curb it in a referendum: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18649156 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18649156
ETHisso2017 7y ago
> The latest proposal has come after a 19-year-old Hong Kong man allegedly murdered his 20-year-old pregnant girlfriend while they were holidaying in Taiwan together in February last year. The man fled Taiwan and returned to Hong Kong last year. > Taiwanese officials have sought help from Hong Kong authorities to extradite the man, but Hong Kong officials say they cannot comply because of the lack of an extradition agreement with Taiwan. > But the Taiwanese government has said it will not seek to extradite the murder suspect under the proposed changes, and has urged Hong Kong to handle the case separately. I thought the extradition bill was to / from China? What does Taiwan have to do with this?
- rrrrreeeee 7y ago
  Because in PRC's mind, Taiwan is a part of the PRC
  - 594kJ 7y ago
    [Off topic] For those who are confused, China mainland is also a part of the ROC (Republic of China, the governing authority of Taiwan) according to the constitution. Basically, the civil war in China has never ended officially. Mainlanders want unification, Taiwanese (esp. the young generation) want the opposite. Still, constitutions are constitutions, albeit old...
- rolltiide 7y ago
  Its a general extradition bill I suppose Or maybe the Hong Kong government can't distinguish between both China's? Like a bill that discusses extradition with mainland China's PRC by default is referring Taiwan China's ROC. That wouldn't surprise me since all of greater china is basically a twilight zone mockery to the nation state concept.
- yskchu 7y ago
  This article has a nice infographic: https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/article/3013512/hong-kong-extradition/index.html?src=app https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/arti... Basically Hong Kong right now, has a whole bunch of extradition treaties with 20 countries[1], just not with both China governments, due to the existing law. The bill fixes this. Also, the 19 year old HK man admitted to the crime [2], however due to the the crime being committed outside HK, he can't be tried for manslaughter in HK; the HK authorities can only charge him with "money laundering" of his girlfriend's money and property (again [2]). He is currently serving the sentence for money laundering, and he's going to be released in October. However if this bill is passed he can be extradited and tried for murder in Taiwan. [1] With Australia, Britain, Canada, the Czech Republic, France, Finland, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Malaysia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the Philippines, Portugal, South Korea, Singapore, South Africa, Sri Lanka and the United States [2] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3008099/sentence-man-who-killed-girlfriend-taiwan-sets https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/30...
mothsonasloth 7y ago
Will this break any of the terms with the British Hong Kong handover? AFAIK the agreement mentions that China must not interfere politically or economically with the capitalistic nature of Hong Kong for at least 50 years.
- intopieces 7y ago
  What does it mean to break the agreement, anyway? Is the UK going to come take HK back?
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    So far the MO has been write a strongly worded memo and return focus to leaving the EU for some reason.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > Will this break any of the terms with the British Hong Kong handover? China stopped honouring its agreement shortly after Xi Jinping ensconced himself as leader for life. That resulted in the umbrella protests against Beijing interfering with who could run for office [1]. There were also the abductions of Hong Kongers selling books publicising corruption and scandal among the CPC’s elite [2]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/24/hong-kong-selection-not-election-china-favoured-candidate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/24/hong-kong-sele... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/08/hong-kong-bookseller-abducted-by-china-vows-to-reopen-shop-in-taiwan https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/08/hong-kong-book...
- denverkarma 7y ago
  As an outside observer it seems like China doesn’t care very much about upholding agreements. And why should they? It’s not like Britain or anyone else in the west is willing to start a war with China, no matter what they do.
  - loyukfai 7y ago
    Sometimes I wonder if it's part of a broader trend as the war generation passes away and homo sapiens are itching back towards the "might make right" paradigm.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
Since Hong Kong is a former British colony, English is co-official with written Chinese there, and you can read the official brief and the text of the bill in English on the Legislative Council website: https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bc/bc56/general/bc56.htm https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bc/bc56/general/bc5...
- ksec 7y ago
  >English is co-official with written Chinese there, That is not strictly true, while both Chinese and English are the official languages, In writing, especially with any legals documents, in case of any discrepancy between the English version and the Chinese version, the English version shall prevail.
rcpt 7y ago
I don't know why but protests on the scale of hundreds of thousands just seems impossible in America
- pmiller2 7y ago
  That’s what those in power want you to think. Here’s a list of 19 protests with at least 100k participants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United_States_by_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United... Four of them have taken place since November 2016.
  - Zenbit_UX 7y ago
    Fascinating link but your color commentary on those in power trying to surpress this knowledge makes you sound irrational - despite being completely right. If those in power wanted to prevent this knowledge it wouldn't be on Wikipedia for any to edit.
    - pmiller2 7y ago
      How is it irrational to claim that those in power don’t want people knowing about massive protests against what they’re doing? (Tianiman Square, anyone?) The knowledge doesn’t need to be suppressed because it’s hidden in plain sight amongst all the other internet noise.
denverkarma 7y ago
It was interesting to see the photos of the Union Jacks marching around. Anyone with first hand experience in Hong Kong, are there many people who wish for a return to the commonwealth, or is that a tiny minority?
- terenceng2010 7y ago
  I would say that most HK ppl just want a stable environment to live and happy to have a status quo. But recently, given the circumstance, more ppl do think UK can take more measures, say, in some way, to allow BNO holder to work and settle easier in UK, given that these holders are willing to and capable to do so. And ppl might miss the last decades of British rules too, in an emotional way, as Economically and culturally HK was in a very good shape. Though most ppl won’t express it with a union flag in a public setting.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  While many may miss the colonial rule for various reasons, most HK people who grew up under the British rule are realistic and understand a return to the commonwealth is nigh impossible under the current situation. I'd venture to say it's overall a tiny minority, mostly youth. Many more are those who'd or are considering (re-) emigration.
rococode 7y ago
Could someone explain to me what the plan is for the end of the 50 year transition period? From my extremely uninformed point of view, this feels like delaying the inevitable. Is there a different outcome than Hong Kong eventually being entirely under the Chinese government?
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Am not sure there was any solid plans. People have, or had, different aspirations. It, more than anything, IMO, was said to appease the fear of the HK people who had a deep mistrust of the PRC government. Still, a lot of people emigrated before 1997. Note that the saying is kind of vague anyway, it just says that the capitalist system and "ways of living" will not change.
rayiner 7y ago
I was just starting high school when the handover of Hong Kong to China happened. Being pretty politically engaged at the time, I remember being surprised that everyone (in the US) was so blasé about it. This was the Clinton era, during the first tech boom. It was an optimistic, post Red Scare time. Everyone (here in the US) assumed the arrow of history pointed in the direction of progress, and that Hong Kong would retain the freedoms it had previously enjoyed.
powerapple 7y ago
a solution to all problems: referendum.
jameslin 7y ago
What the protesters don't tell you is that there are nearly 1 million HKers signed and counting supporting the bill. https://www.safeguardhongkong.hk/ https://www.safeguardhongkong.hk/
- jameslin 7y ago
  Nice, website was working before I posted here, guess some protesters here don't like it.
- yorwba 7y ago
  Archived version with the vote counter stuck at 500,720: http://web.archive.org/web/20190528205611/https://www.safeguardhongkong.hk/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190528205611/https://www.safegu... Unless that site requires valid ID to sign in support, I immediately disbelieve the number because bot activity is basically inevitable. (Not that I don't believe that there are people in Hong Kong who support the bill, just that online signatures don't help figure out how many there are.)
- throwaway1997 7y ago
  These online petitions tend to be largely filled in by people from North of the border. There is no way of verifying that the signatories are Hong Kong people (the only validation is the last four digits of HKID which can be any four digit number)
isaaafc 7y ago
The HK government's response: https://www.news.gov.hk/eng/2019/06/20190609/20190609_231141_763.html https://www.news.gov.hk/eng/2019/06/20190609/20190609_231141... The English and Chinese versions looks pretty different in tone, especially in the last sentence: 'Noting that the Second Reading debate on the bill will resume on June 12, the Government urged the Legislative Council to scrutinise the bill in a calm, reasonable and respectful manner to help ensure Hong Kong remains a safe city for residents and business.' Understandable when this is for foreign press. Directly translated, the Chinese version says: 'The Second Reading debate on the bill will resume on June 12. End. '. Obnoxious if you understand Chinese.

289 points by cow9 7y ago

See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20137955

When I was in HK a few years ago, there was a lot of annoyance amongst the general public that GovHK was starting to get dominated by pro-China individuals. So I get the impression this bill is their doing.

cwperkins 7y ago

Whatever side you are on here just remember, Freedom of assembly is such an important right to hold dear. With the censorious nature of the Chinese Communist Party, I fear what the implications of a bill like this could lead to.

runciblespoon 7y ago
> Whatever side you are on here just remember, Freedom of assembly is such an important right to hold dear. With the censorious nature of the Chinese Communist Party, I fear what the implications of a bill like this could lead to. It's ironic that Hong Kong had even less freedoms when it was a British colony.
- simonh 7y ago
  They had a lot more freedoms than those in mainland China, and quit reasonably want it to stay that way.
- yorwba 7y ago
  The PRC government certainly didn't help. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-push-against-hong-kong-elections-in-50s.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...
Tharkun 7y ago
Also remember what happened during the mass protests 30 years ago. Stay safe.
SubiculumCode 7y ago
To me its quite.clear there is one right side in this, and it.lies with the people marching.

hkai 7y ago

Just finished the 8 hour march. That was insane. But the law is even more insane. A North Korea-like totalitarian state that puts people in camps can just snatch any lawyer, businessman our journalist and take them away without trial and without revealing their location. Imagine people at startups working in sensitive areas like DNA testing, biotech, finance or data mining can be taken away and forced to reveal data, trade secrets, or forced to collaborate, under threat to their families or themselves.

arthurcolle 7y ago
Can you tell us more about your experiences as a participant in the march?
cfarm 7y ago
Do people think they'll be able to change things?
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > Do people think they'll be able to change things? An unpopular chief executive resigned in 2004 to protests half as large [1]. Beijing is at least somewhat constrained with respect to what it can openly do. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung_Chee-hwa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung_Chee-hwa
  - yorwba 7y ago
    > In 2003, more than 500,000 protesters demanded Tung to step down in the light of the proposed legislation of the Hong Kong Basic Law Article 23 and the SARS outbreak. Tung resigned in the middle of his second term on 10 March 2005. 2 years delay make attributing causality seem like a bit of a stretch. The Wikipedia article makes it sound like he resigned after losing the backing of the PRC government.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      Multiple elements weakened Tung, the most significant being his attempted pro-Beijing legislation and handling of the SARS epidemic. Those lead to a series of resignations and public dressings down. Beijing’s disapproval, while a factor, was neither the proximate nor dominant cause. Hong Kong, politically and culturally, responds to protest.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

el_cujo 7y ago

In fifteen minutes the permit to organize expires, lets hope this remains (mostly) peaceful.

ngcc_hk 7y ago

>1 million

PakG1 7y ago

This article is published in the SCMP. The SCMP was purchased some time ago by Jack Ma. There were fears from various corners that Jack Ma, being friendly with the mainland Chinese government, would influence the SCMP to have coverage that was less independent than before. So it's interesting to see this published by SCMP.

heraclius 7y ago
The SCMP seems to have been fairly vocal. There doesn’t seem to be anything that would stop the removal of all the critical journalists though, so I am somewhat confused.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Even among the pro-Beijing businesses and the establishment, there are serious concerns about this. Business people want to make money, foreign companies have started to divest from China, perhaps Hong Kong would be next? Passing this law may akin to killing the goose for the golden eggs.
avocado4 7y ago
SCMP has been pushing CCP propaganda since Jack Ma took over, it's just more subtle than GlobalTimes/XinhuaNet or other official sources. Not covering this protest would have been immediately obvious. You have to be a very subtle troll to make propaganda work abroad. It's similar to YC getting to open a China program in exchange for getting a few Mainland mods on HN. Any anti-China posts do come up to front page but then disappear much faster than everything else (same will happen to this one).
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  "It's similar to YC getting to open a China program in exchange for getting a few Mainland mods on HN. Any anti-China posts do come up to front page but then disappear much faster than everything else (same will happen to this one)." So this is one big statement. Is it true, or are you just guessing at that? Is it common knowledge, or suspicion? Where are we with the validity of that statement?

terenceng2010 7y ago

It might not change HK government attitude after all, but it shows that Hong Kongers align with western values - no one should live under the fear of arbitrary prosecution.

math_and_stuff 7y ago
Why say 'align with western values' instead of 'respect human rights'? Freedom of speech and assembly are encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- intopieces 7y ago
  Because the issue they are protesting is extradition and the rule of law being maintained; HK has a western style rule of law, mainland has practically no rule of law to speak of.
  - wltprgm 7y ago
    Just to add to your comment, the Hong Kong laws being "western" is exactly why mainland want to take charge of Hong Kong It's a no brainer. And probably I will get downvoted by mentioning this. The Tiananmen Square massacre, which originated due to the protesters fighting for more freedom/human rights, from I heard from my uncle, it was because of the influence from westerners. (edit: I was talking about how western values influence the students to protest, not the way they were massacred) Furthermore, he even mentioned how the first Opium War (namely Anglo-Chinese War), WW1 and WW2 were originated from the UK/US (although I did learn about history, he still wanted to reinforce this idea). And the Holocaust (by German forces) made the Jews eventually moved to Israel and stole Palestine's land. The wars in the Middle East are caused by US as well. (edit: influenced, at least by the US) Even the wars in Russia are actually supported by the US (Sorry I am not familiar with this one) I mean, don't downvote me for no reason. edit: apparently some of you downvoted me, guess you guys are from the west anyways, don't dare to admit the history? Quoting a comment from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 > Can't beat them ...ban them (China), can't fight them...sanction them (Russia), can't get the oil...mess them (Venezula), can't make them obey...war with them (Iran)...The Born Loser.

CamelCaseName 7y ago

For anyone like me who was looking for some background on this, on Reddit, someone linked to a Vox video entitled "China is erasing its border with Hong Kong" [0]. At 15 minutes, it's a captivating introduction to the conflict. Another video (6 minutes) you might be interested in by Vox is "China's trillion dollar plan to dominate global trade" [1], which is on China Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8 [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXROXiIpvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXROXiIpvQ Edit: One great passage from the first video [0] at 11:29 says: "The [umbrella movement] protest didn't change the government's mind and it didn't immediately change anything in Hong Kong. But this spectacle of young people rising up to defend their rights from the central government of China did spark a political awakening among the many in the city who had never before paid attention. 'I think post-umbrella movement was the first time that the middle class came out and voted in droves, and voted for the opposition force.' - HK Resident"

chii 7y ago
The vox video paints the Belt and Road Initiative in a negative light - which i feel is wrong. Why shouldn't China be allowed to invest and gain soft power? Why shouldn't they be allowed to make deals with countries the US deems 'undemocratic'?
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  If you're making deals with a government that is undemocratic, you're making a deal with the government, but not with the people. At that point, the deal is probably going to be one that benefits the government, but not the people. Countries do that, when it is in their best interest to do so. But the US (rightly) gets criticism for doing such things. If it's right to criticize the US for such actions, it's also right to criticize China for them.
  - Youden 7y ago
    > If you're making deals with a government that is undemocratic, you're making a deal with the government, but not with the people. I think a better way to phrase "a government that is undemocratic" as "a dictatorship". The idea that democracy is the only system of government that can possibly represent the people is a horrendously American view of the world. To show an example that counters the "everything that isn't democracy is oppressive" claims I usually hear, have a look at Lichtenstein (which admittedly is partly democratic but is also a constitutional monarchy), where the people voted to give the monarchy _more_ power and refused to curb it in a referendum: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18649156 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18649156

ETHisso2017 7y ago

> The latest proposal has come after a 19-year-old Hong Kong man allegedly murdered his 20-year-old pregnant girlfriend while they were holidaying in Taiwan together in February last year. The man fled Taiwan and returned to Hong Kong last year. > Taiwanese officials have sought help from Hong Kong authorities to extradite the man, but Hong Kong officials say they cannot comply because of the lack of an extradition agreement with Taiwan. > But the Taiwanese government has said it will not seek to extradite the murder suspect under the proposed changes, and has urged Hong Kong to handle the case separately. I thought the extradition bill was to / from China? What does Taiwan have to do with this?

rrrrreeeee 7y ago
Because in PRC's mind, Taiwan is a part of the PRC
- 594kJ 7y ago
  [Off topic] For those who are confused, China mainland is also a part of the ROC (Republic of China, the governing authority of Taiwan) according to the constitution. Basically, the civil war in China has never ended officially. Mainlanders want unification, Taiwanese (esp. the young generation) want the opposite. Still, constitutions are constitutions, albeit old...
rolltiide 7y ago
Its a general extradition bill I suppose Or maybe the Hong Kong government can't distinguish between both China's? Like a bill that discusses extradition with mainland China's PRC by default is referring Taiwan China's ROC. That wouldn't surprise me since all of greater china is basically a twilight zone mockery to the nation state concept.
yskchu 7y ago
This article has a nice infographic: https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/article/3013512/hong-kong-extradition/index.html?src=app https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/arti... Basically Hong Kong right now, has a whole bunch of extradition treaties with 20 countries[1], just not with both China governments, due to the existing law. The bill fixes this. Also, the 19 year old HK man admitted to the crime [2], however due to the the crime being committed outside HK, he can't be tried for manslaughter in HK; the HK authorities can only charge him with "money laundering" of his girlfriend's money and property (again [2]). He is currently serving the sentence for money laundering, and he's going to be released in October. However if this bill is passed he can be extradited and tried for murder in Taiwan. [1] With Australia, Britain, Canada, the Czech Republic, France, Finland, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Malaysia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the Philippines, Portugal, South Korea, Singapore, South Africa, Sri Lanka and the United States [2] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3008099/sentence-man-who-killed-girlfriend-taiwan-sets https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/30...

mothsonasloth 7y ago

Will this break any of the terms with the British Hong Kong handover? AFAIK the agreement mentions that China must not interfere politically or economically with the capitalistic nature of Hong Kong for at least 50 years.

intopieces 7y ago
What does it mean to break the agreement, anyway? Is the UK going to come take HK back?
- arcticbull 7y ago
  So far the MO has been write a strongly worded memo and return focus to leaving the EU for some reason.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Will this break any of the terms with the British Hong Kong handover? China stopped honouring its agreement shortly after Xi Jinping ensconced himself as leader for life. That resulted in the umbrella protests against Beijing interfering with who could run for office [1]. There were also the abductions of Hong Kongers selling books publicising corruption and scandal among the CPC’s elite [2]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/24/hong-kong-selection-not-election-china-favoured-candidate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/24/hong-kong-sele... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/08/hong-kong-bookseller-abducted-by-china-vows-to-reopen-shop-in-taiwan https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/08/hong-kong-book...
denverkarma 7y ago
As an outside observer it seems like China doesn’t care very much about upholding agreements. And why should they? It’s not like Britain or anyone else in the west is willing to start a war with China, no matter what they do.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if it's part of a broader trend as the war generation passes away and homo sapiens are itching back towards the "might make right" paradigm.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

Since Hong Kong is a former British colony, English is co-official with written Chinese there, and you can read the official brief and the text of the bill in English on the Legislative Council website: https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bc/bc56/general/bc56.htm https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bc/bc56/general/bc5...

ksec 7y ago
>English is co-official with written Chinese there, That is not strictly true, while both Chinese and English are the official languages, In writing, especially with any legals documents, in case of any discrepancy between the English version and the Chinese version, the English version shall prevail.

rcpt 7y ago

I don't know why but protests on the scale of hundreds of thousands just seems impossible in America

pmiller2 7y ago
That’s what those in power want you to think. Here’s a list of 19 protests with at least 100k participants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United_States_by_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United... Four of them have taken place since November 2016.
- Zenbit_UX 7y ago
  Fascinating link but your color commentary on those in power trying to surpress this knowledge makes you sound irrational - despite being completely right. If those in power wanted to prevent this knowledge it wouldn't be on Wikipedia for any to edit.
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    How is it irrational to claim that those in power don’t want people knowing about massive protests against what they’re doing? (Tianiman Square, anyone?) The knowledge doesn’t need to be suppressed because it’s hidden in plain sight amongst all the other internet noise.

denverkarma 7y ago

It was interesting to see the photos of the Union Jacks marching around. Anyone with first hand experience in Hong Kong, are there many people who wish for a return to the commonwealth, or is that a tiny minority?

terenceng2010 7y ago
I would say that most HK ppl just want a stable environment to live and happy to have a status quo. But recently, given the circumstance, more ppl do think UK can take more measures, say, in some way, to allow BNO holder to work and settle easier in UK, given that these holders are willing to and capable to do so. And ppl might miss the last decades of British rules too, in an emotional way, as Economically and culturally HK was in a very good shape. Though most ppl won’t express it with a union flag in a public setting.
loyukfai 7y ago
While many may miss the colonial rule for various reasons, most HK people who grew up under the British rule are realistic and understand a return to the commonwealth is nigh impossible under the current situation. I'd venture to say it's overall a tiny minority, mostly youth. Many more are those who'd or are considering (re-) emigration.

rococode 7y ago

Could someone explain to me what the plan is for the end of the 50 year transition period? From my extremely uninformed point of view, this feels like delaying the inevitable. Is there a different outcome than Hong Kong eventually being entirely under the Chinese government?

loyukfai 7y ago
Am not sure there was any solid plans. People have, or had, different aspirations. It, more than anything, IMO, was said to appease the fear of the HK people who had a deep mistrust of the PRC government. Still, a lot of people emigrated before 1997. Note that the saying is kind of vague anyway, it just says that the capitalist system and "ways of living" will not change.

rayiner 7y ago

I was just starting high school when the handover of Hong Kong to China happened. Being pretty politically engaged at the time, I remember being surprised that everyone (in the US) was so blasé about it. This was the Clinton era, during the first tech boom. It was an optimistic, post Red Scare time. Everyone (here in the US) assumed the arrow of history pointed in the direction of progress, and that Hong Kong would retain the freedoms it had previously enjoyed.

powerapple 7y ago

a solution to all problems: referendum.

jameslin 7y ago

What the protesters don't tell you is that there are nearly 1 million HKers signed and counting supporting the bill. https://www.safeguardhongkong.hk/ https://www.safeguardhongkong.hk/

jameslin 7y ago
Nice, website was working before I posted here, guess some protesters here don't like it.
yorwba 7y ago
Archived version with the vote counter stuck at 500,720: http://web.archive.org/web/20190528205611/https://www.safeguardhongkong.hk/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190528205611/https://www.safegu... Unless that site requires valid ID to sign in support, I immediately disbelieve the number because bot activity is basically inevitable. (Not that I don't believe that there are people in Hong Kong who support the bill, just that online signatures don't help figure out how many there are.)
throwaway1997 7y ago
These online petitions tend to be largely filled in by people from North of the border. There is no way of verifying that the signatories are Hong Kong people (the only validation is the last four digits of HKID which can be any four digit number)

isaaafc 7y ago

The HK government's response: https://www.news.gov.hk/eng/2019/06/20190609/20190609_231141_763.html https://www.news.gov.hk/eng/2019/06/20190609/20190609_231141... The English and Chinese versions looks pretty different in tone, especially in the last sentence: 'Noting that the Second Reading debate on the bill will resume on June 12, the Government urged the Legislative Council to scrutinise the bill in a calm, reasonable and respectful manner to help ensure Hong Kong remains a safe city for residents and business.' Understandable when this is for foreign press. Directly translated, the Chinese version says: 'The Second Reading debate on the bill will resume on June 12. End. '. Obnoxious if you understand Chinese.