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No I would not like that automatic fine. In theory okay, but in reality it's foolish to separate enforcement from what is being enforced. Moxie explained this w

by lame88 7y ago

No I would not like that automatic fine. In theory okay, but in reality it's foolish to separate enforcement from what is being enforced. Moxie explained this well. In short, good luck changing that law. https://moxie.org/blog/we-should-all-have-something-to-hide/ https://moxie.org/blog/we-should-all-have-something-to-hide/

rahimnathwani 7y ago
There is a position between yours and sho's. Sure, if every federal crime were enforced through automatic fines, this could be a mess due to the complexity of the law. But what's your objection to a fine for changing lanes without indicating?
- lame88 7y ago
  I had no objection to that fine. I had an objection to the an automatic mechanism to do it, or to perfectly enforce any law, no matter how trivial, Simply because these kinds of things don't happen in a vacuum; the mechanisms built toward these ends will not be limited to being used toward that one end. For example maybe there's cameras everywhere to enforce this law. But then there's cameras everywhere. I highly recommend that article I linked if you have not read. Edit 1: I realized what you meant with your question so disregard the first sentence. Edit 2: Also, it's worth stating that it follows that these concerns are completely independent of the complexity of the law.
  - rahimnathwani 7y ago
    What if someone were to devise a mechanism to detect and prosecute people changing lanes without indicating, with the following properties? - perfect accuracy (no FP; no FN) - automated enforcement via a fine, without knowing the identity of the perpetrator (just assume it's possible; I know it's hard) - no potential for the device or underlying technology to be used or repurposed for any other form of surveillance or enforcement Would such a system (and automated enforcement) be OK?
    - arpa 7y ago
      No. It would only be ok if we rework the whole idea of law, base it not in tradition, but perfect rationality and objectiveness. Consider this: i change lanes at 2 a.m. on an empty road. There's no objective need to signal. I get fined for not signalling. I do 50 in a 30 zone (because there's a school nearby) at the same time. I get fined even though there's no objective reason for it. And these are simple examples, if we get to complex cases of, let's say, self defense, it opens up a major can of worms.
      - rahimnathwani 7y ago
        In your first example, you could just change your behaviour to signal even when you think no one is around (as I do). Your second example (speeding) doesn't incur a fine because in this hypothetical example the automated enforcement is only used for signalling violations. For your third example (self defence), maybe you are forced to change lanes without signalling. How often? Once per year? What if the fine were $2, and people like you had to pay it once per year, but people who persistently refuse to signal end up paying 1000s of $2 fines per year? Seems like a reasonable trade-off.
        arpa 7y ago
        In the first example, the idea is that the primary function of blinkers is to convey information. The law makes it mandatory to transmit that information with presumption that the information will be processed by human beings you are sharing the road with. If there are no humans around, the transmission of this information is meaningless and therefore should not be mandatory. If the road is used by autonomous vehicles which transmit information about their paths via radiowaves, signalling could be obsolete as well. The most important part in law is the underlying idea of the social agreement which is being enforced by it and reasonabless of the law (and enforcement). My point is that by automating fine dispensaries, you are subversing the underlying idea itself (automatron can't know what or why is it enforcing) and reasonability.
    - commentzorro 7y ago
      What about unique circumstances? Say a child or an animal ran out in the road and you changed lanes to avoid them but didn't have time to signal. Or any one of a hundred of these unique but not uncommon situations. Would there be a mechanism in place to remove your fines and points? Would that system be automated? Would it be susceptible to lying? How long would it take to get the record corrected? Would the effort cost more than the fine? Just from a technical/automated point of view, removing the moral and societal aspects, the real world is currently just way to complex and ambiguous to automate things like this.
sho 7y ago
I totally agree with the article you linked? Bad, overreaching laws, discretionally enforced, are a very bad thing and open the door to huge abuses of power? You sound like you think you're arguing with me but I agree!

by lame88 7y ago

rahimnathwani 7y ago

There is a position between yours and sho's. Sure, if every federal crime were enforced through automatic fines, this could be a mess due to the complexity of the law. But what's your objection to a fine for changing lanes without indicating?

lame88 7y ago
I had no objection to that fine. I had an objection to the an automatic mechanism to do it, or to perfectly enforce any law, no matter how trivial, Simply because these kinds of things don't happen in a vacuum; the mechanisms built toward these ends will not be limited to being used toward that one end. For example maybe there's cameras everywhere to enforce this law. But then there's cameras everywhere. I highly recommend that article I linked if you have not read. Edit 1: I realized what you meant with your question so disregard the first sentence. Edit 2: Also, it's worth stating that it follows that these concerns are completely independent of the complexity of the law.
- rahimnathwani 7y ago
  What if someone were to devise a mechanism to detect and prosecute people changing lanes without indicating, with the following properties? - perfect accuracy (no FP; no FN) - automated enforcement via a fine, without knowing the identity of the perpetrator (just assume it's possible; I know it's hard) - no potential for the device or underlying technology to be used or repurposed for any other form of surveillance or enforcement Would such a system (and automated enforcement) be OK?
  - arpa 7y ago
    No. It would only be ok if we rework the whole idea of law, base it not in tradition, but perfect rationality and objectiveness. Consider this: i change lanes at 2 a.m. on an empty road. There's no objective need to signal. I get fined for not signalling. I do 50 in a 30 zone (because there's a school nearby) at the same time. I get fined even though there's no objective reason for it. And these are simple examples, if we get to complex cases of, let's say, self defense, it opens up a major can of worms.
    - rahimnathwani 7y ago
      In your first example, you could just change your behaviour to signal even when you think no one is around (as I do). Your second example (speeding) doesn't incur a fine because in this hypothetical example the automated enforcement is only used for signalling violations. For your third example (self defence), maybe you are forced to change lanes without signalling. How often? Once per year? What if the fine were $2, and people like you had to pay it once per year, but people who persistently refuse to signal end up paying 1000s of $2 fines per year? Seems like a reasonable trade-off.
      - arpa 7y ago
        In the first example, the idea is that the primary function of blinkers is to convey information. The law makes it mandatory to transmit that information with presumption that the information will be processed by human beings you are sharing the road with. If there are no humans around, the transmission of this information is meaningless and therefore should not be mandatory. If the road is used by autonomous vehicles which transmit information about their paths via radiowaves, signalling could be obsolete as well. The most important part in law is the underlying idea of the social agreement which is being enforced by it and reasonabless of the law (and enforcement). My point is that by automating fine dispensaries, you are subversing the underlying idea itself (automatron can't know what or why is it enforcing) and reasonability.
  - commentzorro 7y ago
    What about unique circumstances? Say a child or an animal ran out in the road and you changed lanes to avoid them but didn't have time to signal. Or any one of a hundred of these unique but not uncommon situations. Would there be a mechanism in place to remove your fines and points? Would that system be automated? Would it be susceptible to lying? How long would it take to get the record corrected? Would the effort cost more than the fine? Just from a technical/automated point of view, removing the moral and societal aspects, the real world is currently just way to complex and ambiguous to automate things like this.

sho 7y ago

I totally agree with the article you linked? Bad, overreaching laws, discretionally enforced, are a very bad thing and open the door to huge abuses of power? You sound like you think you're arguing with me but I agree!