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iOS 13 now shows you a map of where apps have been tracking you
- toufka 7y agoFantastic. It is the asymmetry in information collection that is so frustrating as a consumer. In an ideal marketplace, information flows freely, and informed choices make the market move towards efficient transactions. When no consumers know what information is being collected or how it’s used, and it’s value is obfuscated, then deep rifts in expectations can emerge. We need more of this sunlight in order to make good decisions about how we generate and share information about our lives.
- m463 7y agoWith trust, trade is unlimited. That said, we should be able to say NO - and this includes apple. For instance, why should we have to identify ourselves to apple?
- reaperducer 7y agoAFAIK, you don't. An iPhone will work fine without signing in to any Apple service and you can opt out of all Apple data collection right in the device. I've set up several testing iDevices for work with no Apple accounts. The only thing you can't do without an Apple account is to use the Apple services like the App Store and iCloud and other paid services. I think even software updates can be done without an account, but I'm not sure since I haven't tried this.
- rcw4256 7y agoWhat good is an iPhone without access to the App Store?
- 14 7y agoAn iPhone can do a lot without any apps installed besides the stock apps. Pictures, calling, texting, web browsing, many many services online with a web interface like banking tinder facebook and many other popular platforms. The limitations of the original iPhone had some issues but Apple has slowly integrated the best features. That brings me to another point, many features apple copied from jailbreakers and you can also jailbreak some versions of ios and run all sorts of apps not in the app store.
- labster 7y agoPeople bought lots of iPhones before the App Store existed. Before Cydia even existed. They were pretty good. You could send SMS messages, browse the web, take photos, and play it like an iPod even.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- saurik 7y agoFWIW, before Cydia there was Installer, and before that something whose name I am not quite remembering (and don't care to look up rocky now)... and I am pretty sure it was running on over 50% of all those original iPhones, as people really found it strange to have a cell phone without even a single game (even Nokia candy bar phones had Snake). (But yeah: at least some people clearly still wanted the device. But that was in a world where there wasn't tempting reason to as everything was accessible with a web browser. In 2019, that reality no longer exists, and without access to app store on a smartphone there are many many things you are cut off from.)
- tty2300 7y agoAlmost everything still is available in a web browser. There are very few apps I use on my phone that aren't a web browser or system apps. I think that you should be able to install your own app store like fdroid which doesn't require a sign in.
- behnamoh 7y agoI think with the advent of web apps, the need for native iOS apps will decrease, at least in some areas. Fortunately, this happens to coincide with the advancements in internet speed and coverage. In a few years: You want to play a game? Fine, let's bing it in Safari and play right there. "there's an app for that" soon will become "there's a web app for that".
- sbuk 7y agoThat was the original intention for the iPhone, 12 years ago. Developers wailed.
- bredren 7y agoMy dad does not use / allow iOS access to his location on his iPhone. I am nonplussed by this and have tried to convince him of the value and yet he will not enable it.
- notafrog 7y agoI agree with you. Of course, an iPhone can surf the web, make calls, take pictures, run the calculator, etc. However, lack of means to install apps without the App Store (besides sideloading), can render any phone pretty much useless. Android has problems of its own though. Yes, you could install apps easily without access to the Play Store. But most Android apps rely upon Google's Play Services one way or another, so those apps wouldn't work properly, if at all.
- kartickv 7y agoGood question, and we shouldn't need an account to download free apps, just as we don't on the desktop. Only when I download I paid app do I want to identify myself so that I can download it again.
- tekknik 7y agoYou do need an app to install via the app store on a mac desktop. if you mean via external methods then jailbreak? if you’re asking for apple to allow anybody to release an ipa on a site and allow download and install then this horse is dead already
- kartickv 7y agoI'm suggesting that app stores (iOS, Mac, Google Play) shouldn't require users to create an account just to download free apps. Partly for privacy, and partly because it's an unnecessary hurdle for users to jump over, and partly because it causes other issues like my Purchased list being polluted with too many free apps, making it hard to find what I actually purchased. It's my device, not Apple's or Google's, so I should be able to download a third-party app without identifying myself to the app store owner. In my last comment, I did not ask for iDevices to be able to install apps from outside the iOS app store.
- Angostura 7y agoIt's a phone, web browser, e-mail client, you can send and receive texts, use it for reminders, calendar, to play music, to stream music. Quite a lot really.
- tekknik 7y agofor specifically the tracking issues, i do my best to avoid installing an app. currently the only thing on my phone that didn’t come stock are various chat apps (discord, steam, twitch) and the kindle app.
- sametmax 7y agoCan you use alternative app store on your non sign-in apple device without rooting it ? Because on android you can.
- m463 7y agoI have not set up an iPhone from scratch in over a year (in particular I'm uncertain if I have set up a device from scratch with ios 12, I know I have upgraded one) Does your comment apply to non-phone iOS devices, or does it include iPhones? With the latest OS, do you have to identify yourself or create an apple id to start using an iPhone? Also, is this in the US or outside of the US? (thanks!)
- redprince 7y agoI'm fairly certain that you don't have to identify in any way at least where I live (Germany). You need to register your Apple account with a valid E-Mail address, which can be as fake as you want it to be. Store credits can be bought anonymously with cash at gas stations or other brick and mortar stores.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoBut a SIM-card is normally not anonymous, no?
- antpls 7y agoAlso, the problem is biologic : an human has a limited ability to receive, process and integrate new information for a given period of time. The data centers and CPUs are able to process magnitude more "information" than a single human, the market cannot be a free flow of information between humans and machines. We have to define what the quantity of information an human can reasonably receive and give attention to, and put some limit into the market to not overhelm people.
- reilly3000 7y agoGood gravy this would be an abysmal report on Android. In my experience many of the free utility apps and games I downloaded required location tracking for no good reason. I’m on iOS for that (and other) reasons.
- codedokode 7y agoAndroid has a list of apps that requested permission for location.
- sahaskatta 7y agoI get a notification on my Galaxy S9 each time an app tries to access my location, microphone, etc. It's called permissions monitor and it appears to either be part of Android itself or a feature Samsung added to my device.
- tehlike 7y agoWhat kind of utility apps? The ones i am aware are all useless (battery saver, space cleaner etc), and at some point one or two was requesting screenshot access (forgot the name) under the false pretense of "accesibility".
- notlukesky 7y agoWhat are the other reasons?
- reilly3000 7y ago- I could never get used to the keyboards - The devices I owned were generally pretty slow, or got slow over time - iMessage lock-in - Hundreds of dollars invested in Apple purchases - The app ecosystem, while giant, always seemed to be junky to me - a few iOS-only apps - I never found a decent SMS from desktop solution, although I'm sure they are out there - Vaguely superior hardware - Animojis is probably the biggest one
- 7y ago
- codedokode 7y agoThey don't have options like "Never allow" or "Provide fake location". Why is that so?
- judge2020 7y agoYou can choose to "never allow" when it originally asks for location and in settings, but it's not one of the options you can choose on the "one day after 'always' tracking was enabled" popup.
- duskwuff 7y ago"Never allow" already exists. The user can deny location access when it is first requested, or can disable location access through Settings. "Provide fake location" is not necessary, because apps which fail to work when you deny location access are rejected during App Store review.
- codedokode 7y agoWhat if the app works without location, but gives some benefits only if you enable it? E.g. a shop app gives a discount if you allow tracking you.
- scarface74 7y agoMore than likely that would be rejected.
- asveikau 7y agoIs Apple going to know that an app is not offering a discount?
- scarface74 7y agoMost apps wouldn’t be subtle about it. They would say that you must have location on to receive discounts. As far as I know. Apps can’t tell the difference between the user denied location access and the users location can’t be determined right now. There are iOS devices that don’t have GPS chips - some iPads and the iPod Touch. If the user isn’t near a mapped WiFi hotspot, they won’t have anyway of finding a location.
- dpkonofa 7y agoI really don't understand how people can simultaneously say that Apple is anti-consumer and then ignore moves like this that not only show that Apple is committed to consumers. It would be so easy for them to gather all this info and sell it to advertisers and third-parties and yet they refuse to. On top of that, I think it's strangely telling that most of the anti-Apple stories when it comes to the "right to repair" movement all have to misrepresent what Apple is doing or why they're taking the action they are in order to make the story interesting and fit the anti-consumer narrative. We live in a really strange time.
- snek 7y agoApple can both make choices and improve user security and make choices that hurt user's ability to repair their devices. They should obviously be commended for things like this app tracking, but that doesn't mean they don't do bad things.
- ikeyany 7y agoI've heard plenty of arguments that don't misrepresent Apple. For example, the iPhone has never had replaceable batteries. Also, they were proven to slow down old phones without telling users why, until it became an ordeal [1]. [1] - https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/10/26/the-new-iphone-comes-out-today-is-apple-slowing-down-your-old-device-to-make-you-buy-the-new-one/ https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/10/26/the-new-iphone-come...
- saagarjha 7y ago> they were proven to degrade old software to strong-arm users to update They never did this.
- ikeyany 7y agoLooks like they didn't. Slashdot did a story on it [1] that was disproven later [2]. [1] - https://slashdot.org/story/347559 https://slashdot.org/story/347559 [2] - https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/10/26/the-new-iphone-comes-out-today-is-apple-slowing-down-your-old-device-to-make-you-buy-the-new-one/ https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/10/26/the-new-iphone-come...
- benjoffe 7y agoIt seems a bit extreme to offer apps one of two extremes: either my sub-metre location or no location at all. It seems the reasonable default for location sharing should be something like sharing the rough suburb that I'm in. This solves most use-cases such as showing closest store locations, delivery options, dating apps showing nearby matches, etc. It's only the occasional navigation app that needs to know exactly where the user is located.
- olliej 7y agoThat’s why iOS 13 added a share location once button, in addition to the existing share forever and share forever even when the app isn’t running.
- benjoffe 7y agoThat's a good feature but quite different, if the user is at home when they need to use the app that first time then it reveals where the user lives and possibly personally identifies them.
- nitrogen 7y agoYour IP address when on WiFi almost certainly can be connected to a specific address by a databroker. That doesn't mean location shouldn't be limited in resolution, but there are other ways to get the same thing.
- xhruso00 7y agoThe whole popup window experience is like Windows Vista.
- fullshark 7y agoI support Apple trying to turn privacy into a major marketing issue, but I think we’ve basically already learned that consumers just do not care.
- awakeasleep 7y agoI'd modify your idea to say "consumers generally don't make decisions based on privacy alone" -- a much milder take that leaves a lot of room for experimentation in the future.
- Godel_unicode 7y agoWhat evidence do you have that this milder phrasing is justified? Everything I've seen agrees with GP.
- iscrewyou 7y agoThey will care. They watch marketing. And that is the point Apple is trying to make. I assume, next is banners at the Apple Stores and at Best Buys.
- baddox 7y agoOn the contrary, I think we’re learning that consumers do care if they feel like they have some basic knowledge and control of their personal data.
- sudoscript 7y agoIt’s a trade off between convenience and security. Consumers _do_ care, just not enough to put unusual amounts of effort in. These moves by Apple make it much easier, and could become things consumers expect from their devices, since they don’t have to give up convenience to have them.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago“If I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse” You’re right. If Apple can show people you can have security and it can be easy, people will demand that.
- lern_too_spel 7y agoDoes it show Apple itself? Unlike every other phone platform, iOS does not allow a user to get their GPS location without telling Apple what it was. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056 "By enabling Location Services for your devices, you agree and consent to the transmission, collection, maintenance, processing, and use of your location data and location search queries by Apple and its partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based and road traffic-based products and services."
- gatherhunterer 7y agoAndroid has over half a dozen settings that must be disabled before the OS actually stops tracking your location and they are spread out to different menus. This is to say nothing of built-in apps like Google maps that have their own location tracking settings which, if changed, return all of the OS settings to their default activated setting. Manufacturers can have their own location services on top of Android’s. Updating Android or firmware means having to find all of the hidden settings again to turn off any that have been reset. Apple’s policy is in no way unique and iOS settings cannot be implicitly overridden by app settings. The global settings are app-specific. I have location settings on and disabled for every app except Apple Maps, other apps still need explicit permission when they try to use my location.
- izacus 7y agoThere is just one setting for location access which blocks it off for all, including OS services. Please don't spread dishonest misinformation, there's no need for that.
- sbuk 7y agoDishonest may be a bit harsh, misinformed is fairer. The OP is completely disingenuous. They know what that line implies, they are choosing to convey it as sinister.
- 7y ago
- m0zg 7y agoI wish I could also give apps "coarse" information about my location. Say down to a mile, or even just the zipcode (5 digits only). I.e. if a news app wants to know what to serve to me, zipcode is quite enough. If I'm looking for pizza on yelp they don't need my exact location. That way on the one hand the apps can function, but on the other they can't really track you accurately enough for it to be terribly privacy-invasive.
- AYBABTME 7y agoApple might end up becoming a benevolent king for whoever decides (and can afford) to use its ecosystem. I'm in favour of that, I wish it will democratize this concept to other companies, although it's unlikely Google will since it's in competition with their core business model.
- tempodox 7y agoI've been using the location tracking permission setting from day one. But still, making it more obvious and visible is a win for users who are less aware.
- zerogvt 7y agoIs it my idea or Apple is aggressively betting more and more in providing privacy to end users? Also it seems that the other side of the party (Android and free services) is moving fast towards the other end of the spectrum.
- ENOTTY 7y agoI predict apps will spam location requests to induce decision fatigue on the 'share once' users, who will switch to 'share while using' or 'share always'
- OldHand2018 7y agoAccording to the WWDC video [1], this can't happen. Your app has to test for permission every time you want it, and iOS decides when to show the permission dialog. Additionally, the 'share always' option goes away. Your app has to earn it, or petition Apple directly for that permission. The 'share while using' is also now temporary, as iOS will periodically ask the user to confirm that this is what they want. iOS does this when the user is not using the app (on the home screen), which is why you must now check to see if you have permission every single time. [1] https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/708/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/708/
- Karunamon 7y agoThat’s a pain in the ass. I have a number of apps I explicitly granted background access to. That should be my decision, not Apple’s.
- eklavyaa 7y agoI am glad I shifted to iPhone a year back and was able to convince my wife to shift too last month. Why people who can afford a price of iPhone buy other brand is beyond my understanding. When apps are not even reviewed by anyone on Android then it certainly puts the user at more risk compared to iOS user.
- notahappycamper 7y agoSome people are willing to accept a small amount of risk to be able to do what they want with their device without being restricted to what the manufacturer says is OK.