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Americans should consider shorter junction cycles instead. My experience in the US is that traffic light cycles are long, leading to impatience, and long queue

by Svip 7y ago

Americans should consider shorter junction cycles instead. My experience in the US is that traffic light cycles are long, leading to impatience, and long queues building up at lights when they turn red, which may even spill into a junction further down, leading to further congestion. That's in comparison to Europe, where the traffic light cycles are short, meaning less cars get through on each cycle of green, but at least everyone feels they don't have to wait quite as much. Red-light cameras are also rare in Europe, I have only encountered them in Germany, but they could be elsewhere.

kolinko 7y ago
Spending time on both continents - I prefer the American approach in this. Starting and stopping slows down the throughput, also, as a driver, I prefer to sit still for 2 minutes than to stop and go every 20seconds. Side-story, on the Burning Man entrance, there is always a multi-hour traffic jam (one road, thousamds of cars, for 70km or sth). A few years ago they introduced a system where they only allow the cars to move once an hour. That way, you drive for a few minutes, and then stop and chill until the next movement window. Way better than having to be constantly alert for next 100m moveme t every few minutes.
tehlike 7y ago
I dont know how this helps. We do probably need an adaptive cycle, so that it can adjust based on traffic. On major roads, it can keep ot green for longer. In south bay, el camino comes to mind, and it can be much better.
- Svip 7y ago
  A lot of junctions in the US have 'intelligent lights' (I don't know the exact term), where there are plates on some lanes, so it only turns on for a lane if there are cars in it. That is mostly noticeable for left-turning lanes. But in Europe, most traffic lights are programmed to act differently based on the time of day, hence allowing a smoother traffic in rush hour. Or in some European cities, the lights will switch to flashing yellow at night. I don't think traffic lights need to be that smart, just scheduled. I have definitely not heard that European traffic should be significantly worse than US traffic.
  - matwood 7y ago
    The US uses all of those methods in conjunction.
    - Svip 7y ago
      And in my opinion, the problem is that the cycle itself is too long. If they merely tweaked that, the impatience would be lowered, and you might even get smoother traffic.
      - delfinom 7y ago
        The cycle is entirely up to the local Department of Transportation be it a city, town or state. Where I live we have short cycle lights at heavy intersections and long cycle lights at intersections where keeping the primary/heavy road going longer is 100000% more worth it than some side secondary road with 3 cars every hour. There are also plenty of complex areas where all the lights on a road are interconnected for miles and the timing is set to match between them to more efficiently feed cars onto highways and move them along.
  - tehlike 7y ago
    The one problem with us that might be different from europe is density. People usually work in further locations compared to europe, and lack of public transport is a major bummer. I think schedule-dependent is probably what i mean. Lanes here do have 8 shaped measurement systems to detect near real time traffic, and in theory government could collaborate with google who has this data as well. Run some simulations, and extract schedules and that should be a big improvement(assuming it is not already done)
  - bobthepanda 7y ago
    The problem is that American land use is organized in a way that basically requires driving. If you want to do something as trivial as travel from one supermarket to another across the street, the roads are high-speed, the crosswalks are far away and inconvenient (fast walk cycle time, slow red time), and on top of that you have to cross large parking lots to get to and from the front door. Just look at the environment between this Trader Joe's and Whole Foods: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.86918,-73.1275739,464m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.86918,-73.1275739,464m/data=... We make everyone drive for the shortest of trips and then are shocked that we have so much traffic.
- woodpanel 7y ago
  I‘ve experienced some of the most insane red-light cycles in fly-over-usa. The one I still remember to this day, was one that took 15 minutes. It was 2am at an left-turn into a t-intersection. There was of course no traffic at all. We haven’t seen a car for 30 min. before and after, but the fear of some traffic cop just waiting for us to crack was bigger than our impulse to end this nonsense. Till this day it haunts me that there might have been a traffic cop sitting in front of us all the time, because this insane red-light was the perfect trap. What else he‘d be doing all night anyways? It took so long, we went from frustration to laughing multiple times. And then we’ve started counting the clock.
glitchcrab 7y ago
There are some in the UK but they're not that common. I usually see them on high-volume arteries in and out of London.
droidist2 7y ago
This would feel better but isn't it less efficient because then there's more stopping and starting? Like instead of waiting at an average of 5 lights for 60 seconds, you wait at 10 lights for 30 seconds, which means you spend twice as much time decelerating/accelerating to/from a stop.
- Svip 7y ago
  But it will feel like more is happening, thus lowering impatience, and it will also mean that even if the lights are synced, it's harder to get up to a dangerous speed in built up areas. So it's also safer. In cities, I don't really care about making it convenient for drivers, but lowering their impatience will make it safer for everyone.
  - droidist2 7y ago
    Oh yeah, in the city you might have a point. I was picturing a limited-access road in a suburb, with lights spaced pretty far apart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited-access_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited-access_road
jwr 7y ago
Seconded (as a European). I also found the cycles in the US very long, they are optimized for batch throughput, but do not take human nature into account. I noticed people are much more likely to keep driving when the light turns yellow and then red, than in Europe — probably because they expect a long wait if they miss the light. This is especially dangerous to pedestrians and bikers. Removing the traffic cameras seems like a bizarre move: if anything, I'd place more of them, with more severe penalties.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Twirrim 7y ago
Roundabouts would help too. There's a lot of random traffic light controlled junctions in lower traffic spots all over the place that could easily be replaced by a roundabout without any lights. Even where lights are involved, roundabouts drastically change the types of accidents experienced to the less-deadly rear-ends instead of t-bones (while also reducing the overall number of accidents too)
stjohnswarts 7y ago
that's incorrect in urban areas. Most modern areas use cameras and sensors and traffic information to decide lights switching to adjust for traffic. Most rural areas dont' have the money for such data/sensor setups and just set up "common sense" timers

by Svip 7y ago

kolinko 7y ago

Spending time on both continents - I prefer the American approach in this. Starting and stopping slows down the throughput, also, as a driver, I prefer to sit still for 2 minutes than to stop and go every 20seconds. Side-story, on the Burning Man entrance, there is always a multi-hour traffic jam (one road, thousamds of cars, for 70km or sth). A few years ago they introduced a system where they only allow the cars to move once an hour. That way, you drive for a few minutes, and then stop and chill until the next movement window. Way better than having to be constantly alert for next 100m moveme t every few minutes.

tehlike 7y ago

I dont know how this helps. We do probably need an adaptive cycle, so that it can adjust based on traffic. On major roads, it can keep ot green for longer. In south bay, el camino comes to mind, and it can be much better.

Svip 7y ago
A lot of junctions in the US have 'intelligent lights' (I don't know the exact term), where there are plates on some lanes, so it only turns on for a lane if there are cars in it. That is mostly noticeable for left-turning lanes. But in Europe, most traffic lights are programmed to act differently based on the time of day, hence allowing a smoother traffic in rush hour. Or in some European cities, the lights will switch to flashing yellow at night. I don't think traffic lights need to be that smart, just scheduled. I have definitely not heard that European traffic should be significantly worse than US traffic.
- matwood 7y ago
  The US uses all of those methods in conjunction.
  - Svip 7y ago
    And in my opinion, the problem is that the cycle itself is too long. If they merely tweaked that, the impatience would be lowered, and you might even get smoother traffic.
    - delfinom 7y ago
      The cycle is entirely up to the local Department of Transportation be it a city, town or state. Where I live we have short cycle lights at heavy intersections and long cycle lights at intersections where keeping the primary/heavy road going longer is 100000% more worth it than some side secondary road with 3 cars every hour. There are also plenty of complex areas where all the lights on a road are interconnected for miles and the timing is set to match between them to more efficiently feed cars onto highways and move them along.
- tehlike 7y ago
  The one problem with us that might be different from europe is density. People usually work in further locations compared to europe, and lack of public transport is a major bummer. I think schedule-dependent is probably what i mean. Lanes here do have 8 shaped measurement systems to detect near real time traffic, and in theory government could collaborate with google who has this data as well. Run some simulations, and extract schedules and that should be a big improvement(assuming it is not already done)
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  The problem is that American land use is organized in a way that basically requires driving. If you want to do something as trivial as travel from one supermarket to another across the street, the roads are high-speed, the crosswalks are far away and inconvenient (fast walk cycle time, slow red time), and on top of that you have to cross large parking lots to get to and from the front door. Just look at the environment between this Trader Joe's and Whole Foods: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.86918,-73.1275739,464m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.86918,-73.1275739,464m/data=... We make everyone drive for the shortest of trips and then are shocked that we have so much traffic.
woodpanel 7y ago
I‘ve experienced some of the most insane red-light cycles in fly-over-usa. The one I still remember to this day, was one that took 15 minutes. It was 2am at an left-turn into a t-intersection. There was of course no traffic at all. We haven’t seen a car for 30 min. before and after, but the fear of some traffic cop just waiting for us to crack was bigger than our impulse to end this nonsense. Till this day it haunts me that there might have been a traffic cop sitting in front of us all the time, because this insane red-light was the perfect trap. What else he‘d be doing all night anyways? It took so long, we went from frustration to laughing multiple times. And then we’ve started counting the clock.

glitchcrab 7y ago

There are some in the UK but they're not that common. I usually see them on high-volume arteries in and out of London.

droidist2 7y ago

This would feel better but isn't it less efficient because then there's more stopping and starting? Like instead of waiting at an average of 5 lights for 60 seconds, you wait at 10 lights for 30 seconds, which means you spend twice as much time decelerating/accelerating to/from a stop.

Svip 7y ago
But it will feel like more is happening, thus lowering impatience, and it will also mean that even if the lights are synced, it's harder to get up to a dangerous speed in built up areas. So it's also safer. In cities, I don't really care about making it convenient for drivers, but lowering their impatience will make it safer for everyone.
- droidist2 7y ago
  Oh yeah, in the city you might have a point. I was picturing a limited-access road in a suburb, with lights spaced pretty far apart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited-access_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited-access_road

jwr 7y ago

Seconded (as a European). I also found the cycles in the US very long, they are optimized for batch throughput, but do not take human nature into account. I noticed people are much more likely to keep driving when the light turns yellow and then red, than in Europe — probably because they expect a long wait if they miss the light. This is especially dangerous to pedestrians and bikers. Removing the traffic cameras seems like a bizarre move: if anything, I'd place more of them, with more severe penalties.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Twirrim 7y ago

Roundabouts would help too. There's a lot of random traffic light controlled junctions in lower traffic spots all over the place that could easily be replaced by a roundabout without any lights. Even where lights are involved, roundabouts drastically change the types of accidents experienced to the less-deadly rear-ends instead of t-bones (while also reducing the overall number of accidents too)

stjohnswarts 7y ago

that's incorrect in urban areas. Most modern areas use cameras and sensors and traffic information to decide lights switching to adjust for traffic. Most rural areas dont' have the money for such data/sensor setups and just set up "common sense" timers