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But wasn't the later stuff done by Dehomag, the German subsidiary started by IBM? IBM's direct involvement in Germany apparently ended when the war started in 1

But wasn't the later stuff done by Dehomag, the German subsidiary started by IBM? IBM's direct involvement in Germany apparently ended when the war started in 1941, although Dehomag kept using their equipment. Just because they used "IBM technology" doesn't mean that IBM still had a hand in it. I mean, if you want to go down that route, shouldn't we be pointing a finger of blame at the train manufacturing folks, too, for example, since their trains were being used for transport? Perhaps you should actually read the book, read the contemporary discussions of it, and maybe IBM's response to the whole affair before, you know, just jumping to conclusions based on this one article.

azinman2 7y ago
The article argued the opposite. I haven’t read the book. Have you?
- southern_cross 7y ago
  I think I did (or maybe just parts of it), but I don't really remember because it came out back in 2001. I do recall reading a lot of discussion about the whole situation back then, and that IBM's response to it seemed rather weak. I haven't really kept up with the matter since then, though.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    I hope you can take this as an honest question and not a personal attack, but if you’ve not really researched or paid attention to this issue since 2001 why are you all over the comments here defending IBM? I’m an ex-IBMer, not necessarily against them but you really seem to be going out of your way to defend them, what gives?
    - southern_cross 7y ago
      I don't believe I've actually "defended" IBM anywhere here. In fact, I stated that their response (their own defense) to the whole thing was quite weak, as I recall. But we're talking here about an article which came out in 2017 (written by someone who was apparently quite clueless about the whole situation), about a book which first came out in 2001, about events which happened back in the 1930s and 1940s. So plenty of time for us to have gotten a good historical view of what actually went on here - good, bad, or indifferent. As I recall the book itself was quite one-sided and basically what we would today refer to as "clickbait", but I could be wrong about that. (My memory here is weak.) But too many folks these days want to buy into clickbaity stuff without doing any due diligence first. This is something that I've tried to instill in my college-age daughter. That is, don't get all worked up about something that you've read on the internet or seen on the news or whatever, until you've done enough due diligence on the matter to be able to say that you are quite familiar with both sides of the story. If you still want to be all worked up about it at that point, fine, but as often as not whenever my daughter actually does this she ends up calming down quite a bit. Along those lines, the book's author claims to have uncovered new evidence here of the "smoking gun" variety. But I can tell that whenever I've looked at various "smoking gun" documents myself (in other contexts), very often these turn out to be nothing of the sort. Instead such claims are often just the product of lazy/incompetent/dishonest journalism, which is why I usually try to review documents for myself before coming to any conclusions. I wish more people would do that kind of thing.
  - mthoms 7y ago
    >I think I did (or maybe just parts of it), but I don't really remember because it came out back in 2001 Interesting admission considering elsewhere in this thread you've twice admonished me for not having read it. >I haven't really kept up with the matter since then, though You might want to read this summary, straight from the researcher himself, of the 2012 update to the book which you seem to be unaware of. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691?guccounter=1 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691?gucco... From the article: >Among the newly-released documents and archival materials are secret 1941 correspondence setting up the Dutch subsidiary of IBM to work in tandem with the Nazis, company President Thomas Watson’s personal approval for the 1939 release of special IBM alphabetizing machines to help organize the rape of Poland and the deportation of Polish Jews, as well as the IBM Concentration Camp Codes including IBM’s code for death by Gas Chamber.
    - southern_cross 7y ago
      > Interesting admission considering elsewhere in this thread you've twice admonished me for not having read it. Then you'd better freakin' get on it, huh? And remember I said to read not only the book but discussions and potential responses to it, too. Whatever I've read (or not) of this stuff myself in the past, apparently it's been far more than you have so far. I readily admit to not being up on the latest, though. > Among the newly-released documents and archival materials are secret 1941 correspondence setting up the Dutch subsidiary of IBM to work in tandem with the Nazis, company President Thomas Watson’s personal approval for the 1939 release of special IBM alphabetizing machines to help organize the rape of Poland and the deportation of Polish Jews, as well as the IBM Concentration Camp Codes including IBM’s code for death by Gas Chamber. See my response to you elsewhere in this thread.
      - mthoms 7y ago
        >Whatever I've read (or not) of this stuff myself in the past, apparently it's been far more than you have so far If I've said or quoted something untrue please point it out rather than relying on argument from authority and condescension. It's rude and immature. Everything I've claimed has been sourced. All you've been able to muster is generalizations and vague recollections about a book and commentary that you may (or may not... you're really not sure) have read. Edit: Actually never mind. I see that your comment history shows the same pattern over and over. Along with the same ideological slant as you've exposed in this thread.
robin_reala 7y ago
The war started in 1939. The US got directly involved in 1941.
uhhhhhhh 7y ago
The article makes a point that the books length is largely due to establishing extensive proof that IMB's direct involvement and management over Dehomag throughout the war means they would have known exactly what the various uses of their systems were... If an American company was making and selling trains to Germany during the war specifically tailored for transporting people in large quantities knowing what they were using it for, then I imagine most people would see multiple issues with that. I admit I've only read the article, not the book but it seems hard to match your statements and "I think i've read the book" with the articles description of it.
- Aloha 7y ago
  Having read the original book, it made a reasonable (perhaps even convincing) case that IBM knew, or should have known what their tabulators would be used for - it also made a reasonably convincing case that IBM America had little control over its German subsidiary after 1936-7. The only thing IBM could have done was to declined to sell to the German government, which would have resulted in a prompt nationalization.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    So from '37, you'd contend, they had no sharing of skills, workers, or information? Why did they retain the same name if they were separate companies? Did IBM in USA get money for use of trademarks, patents, etc., From IBM in Germany?
    - Aloha 7y ago
      They never had the same name, dehomag vs IBM, and with currency controls, money from Germany flowed to a trickle. The Edwin Black book makes this clear, lays it all out in an interesting story.
  - mthoms 7y ago
    I'm not sure how much of this was detailed in the original book (I haven't read it) but the 2012 update claims to have revealed new material: >Among the newly-released documents and archival materials are secret 1941 correspondence setting up the Dutch subsidiary of IBM to work in tandem with the Nazis, company President Thomas Watson’s personal approval for the 1939 release of special IBM alphabetizing machines to help organize the rape of Poland and the deportation of Polish Jews, as well as the IBM Concentration Camp Codes including IBM’s code for death by Gas Chamber. Separately: >... a newly released copy of a subsequent letter dated June 10, 1941, drafted by IBM’s New York office, confirms that IBM headquarters personally directed the activities of its Dutch subsidiary set up in 1940 to identify and liquidate the Jews of Holland. It seems to me that there is evidence of direct involvement at least up until the US declared war in December 1941. Source https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691

azinman2 7y ago

The article argued the opposite. I haven’t read the book. Have you?

southern_cross 7y ago
I think I did (or maybe just parts of it), but I don't really remember because it came out back in 2001. I do recall reading a lot of discussion about the whole situation back then, and that IBM's response to it seemed rather weak. I haven't really kept up with the matter since then, though.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  I hope you can take this as an honest question and not a personal attack, but if you’ve not really researched or paid attention to this issue since 2001 why are you all over the comments here defending IBM? I’m an ex-IBMer, not necessarily against them but you really seem to be going out of your way to defend them, what gives?
  - southern_cross 7y ago
    I don't believe I've actually "defended" IBM anywhere here. In fact, I stated that their response (their own defense) to the whole thing was quite weak, as I recall. But we're talking here about an article which came out in 2017 (written by someone who was apparently quite clueless about the whole situation), about a book which first came out in 2001, about events which happened back in the 1930s and 1940s. So plenty of time for us to have gotten a good historical view of what actually went on here - good, bad, or indifferent. As I recall the book itself was quite one-sided and basically what we would today refer to as "clickbait", but I could be wrong about that. (My memory here is weak.) But too many folks these days want to buy into clickbaity stuff without doing any due diligence first. This is something that I've tried to instill in my college-age daughter. That is, don't get all worked up about something that you've read on the internet or seen on the news or whatever, until you've done enough due diligence on the matter to be able to say that you are quite familiar with both sides of the story. If you still want to be all worked up about it at that point, fine, but as often as not whenever my daughter actually does this she ends up calming down quite a bit. Along those lines, the book's author claims to have uncovered new evidence here of the "smoking gun" variety. But I can tell that whenever I've looked at various "smoking gun" documents myself (in other contexts), very often these turn out to be nothing of the sort. Instead such claims are often just the product of lazy/incompetent/dishonest journalism, which is why I usually try to review documents for myself before coming to any conclusions. I wish more people would do that kind of thing.
- mthoms 7y ago
  >I think I did (or maybe just parts of it), but I don't really remember because it came out back in 2001 Interesting admission considering elsewhere in this thread you've twice admonished me for not having read it. >I haven't really kept up with the matter since then, though You might want to read this summary, straight from the researcher himself, of the 2012 update to the book which you seem to be unaware of. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691?guccounter=1 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691?gucco... From the article: >Among the newly-released documents and archival materials are secret 1941 correspondence setting up the Dutch subsidiary of IBM to work in tandem with the Nazis, company President Thomas Watson’s personal approval for the 1939 release of special IBM alphabetizing machines to help organize the rape of Poland and the deportation of Polish Jews, as well as the IBM Concentration Camp Codes including IBM’s code for death by Gas Chamber.
  - southern_cross 7y ago
    > Interesting admission considering elsewhere in this thread you've twice admonished me for not having read it. Then you'd better freakin' get on it, huh? And remember I said to read not only the book but discussions and potential responses to it, too. Whatever I've read (or not) of this stuff myself in the past, apparently it's been far more than you have so far. I readily admit to not being up on the latest, though. > Among the newly-released documents and archival materials are secret 1941 correspondence setting up the Dutch subsidiary of IBM to work in tandem with the Nazis, company President Thomas Watson’s personal approval for the 1939 release of special IBM alphabetizing machines to help organize the rape of Poland and the deportation of Polish Jews, as well as the IBM Concentration Camp Codes including IBM’s code for death by Gas Chamber. See my response to you elsewhere in this thread.
    - mthoms 7y ago
      >Whatever I've read (or not) of this stuff myself in the past, apparently it's been far more than you have so far If I've said or quoted something untrue please point it out rather than relying on argument from authority and condescension. It's rude and immature. Everything I've claimed has been sourced. All you've been able to muster is generalizations and vague recollections about a book and commentary that you may (or may not... you're really not sure) have read. Edit: Actually never mind. I see that your comment history shows the same pattern over and over. Along with the same ideological slant as you've exposed in this thread.

robin_reala 7y ago

The war started in 1939. The US got directly involved in 1941.

uhhhhhhh 7y ago

The article makes a point that the books length is largely due to establishing extensive proof that IMB's direct involvement and management over Dehomag throughout the war means they would have known exactly what the various uses of their systems were... If an American company was making and selling trains to Germany during the war specifically tailored for transporting people in large quantities knowing what they were using it for, then I imagine most people would see multiple issues with that. I admit I've only read the article, not the book but it seems hard to match your statements and "I think i've read the book" with the articles description of it.

Aloha 7y ago
Having read the original book, it made a reasonable (perhaps even convincing) case that IBM knew, or should have known what their tabulators would be used for - it also made a reasonably convincing case that IBM America had little control over its German subsidiary after 1936-7. The only thing IBM could have done was to declined to sell to the German government, which would have resulted in a prompt nationalization.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  So from '37, you'd contend, they had no sharing of skills, workers, or information? Why did they retain the same name if they were separate companies? Did IBM in USA get money for use of trademarks, patents, etc., From IBM in Germany?
  - Aloha 7y ago
    They never had the same name, dehomag vs IBM, and with currency controls, money from Germany flowed to a trickle. The Edwin Black book makes this clear, lays it all out in an interesting story.
- mthoms 7y ago
  I'm not sure how much of this was detailed in the original book (I haven't read it) but the 2012 update claims to have revealed new material: >Among the newly-released documents and archival materials are secret 1941 correspondence setting up the Dutch subsidiary of IBM to work in tandem with the Nazis, company President Thomas Watson’s personal approval for the 1939 release of special IBM alphabetizing machines to help organize the rape of Poland and the deportation of Polish Jews, as well as the IBM Concentration Camp Codes including IBM’s code for death by Gas Chamber. Separately: >... a newly released copy of a subsequent letter dated June 10, 1941, drafted by IBM’s New York office, confirms that IBM headquarters personally directed the activities of its Dutch subsidiary set up in 1940 to identify and liquidate the Jews of Holland. It seems to me that there is evidence of direct involvement at least up until the US declared war in December 1941. Source https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691