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All the greatest titles of the early 70s-2000s and were products of their times. The hardware and systems were limited, and the basic level writing and directio

All the greatest titles of the early 70s-2000s and were products of their times. The hardware and systems were limited, and the basic level writing and direction matched the limited graphics. Fact is: engineers refuse to believe that creatives spent the same staggering amount of time honing their skills - it's just inconvenient because that means engineers possess about as much creativity as we do oop skills. That is a deep chasm. And it shows, pick a metric. They have had a near 0% success rate in creating new games outside the Orange box era. Valve hasn't made any games 100% because their engineers aren't creatives. It's kinda like the one hit wonder phenomenon. It's common in creative fields, like when an artist accidentally stumbles on a style and finds success, only to never be able to 'create something as good as the original' because they never had the skills in the first place--while the skills they actually need to create consistently take a lifetime to hone--so as creatives, they fade to obscurity.

bartimus 7y ago
Sorry, but even today (the most?) successful innovative games continue to come from people with engineering backgrounds. Also the engineers at Valve have continued to release games (Dota 2) and other valuable products that enabled many games to see the light of day. Also it makes sense that - when you build an app store - it's better not to work on creating products (games) that are in direct competition with your customers. I haven't said artists are useless. You guys contribute amazing things and surely have your roles to play. I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently. What we'll be seeing is that game engines will continue to become more like a sort of "Photoshop for games". It's where you guys will shine. Although I guarantee you some of the best titles will continue to come from engineers. Simply because engineers are their own audience. Artistic types tend to have different interests.
- yoshibb 7y ago
  So in the past couple decades, your ace in the hole is Dota? Damn, that's an entire game (that was mirrored from a w3 mod) Also: gen z gives absolutely zero shits about Mobas, so that's kind of a lost cause. What else do you got? Or is it just DOTA in two decades, that z gives no shits about, while the main moba demo ages out of gaming. And are you serious? "we can't compete with other games so we don't" This is exactly the kind of bs I'm talking about. Bunch of one hit wonder 1%ers who have been been sitting around in a vacuum playing widgets over at club valve over in bellevue, they haven't grown at all since the orange box.
  - yoshibb 7y ago
    'I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently." This is the bias I am talking about. You guys are sitting at a near 0% in terms of creating new and interesting IP--and this is throughout the entire industry--I can count the good titles post-orange box era with one hand. Technology evolved: engineers realized they need visual people now, but for everything else were like: nah, we're good. Spoiler: you're not. No new titles, the titles that get through are disposable flavors of the month, at best. The amount of creativity engineers have shown is about equal to creatives skill in OOP. If a gulf engineers don't even know how to cross. If we could quantify the difference, it would be like asking a non tech person to do your netcode. We are talking about a lifetime a shaping here, you can't backload the skills any easier than I can backload the skills to build an engine.
    - bartimus 7y ago
      I don't work at Valve. You're missing my point. I didn't say we don't need artists. I'm saying you shouldn't have artists taking leading roles in the fields that aren't artistic. Perhaps you're doing a bit too much goalposting to make your argument? Ignoring all the groundbreaking titles (in any company). The other groundbreaking title that was released by Valve was of course Steam. The first app store. What makes Valve so great is that they're exactly not doing the same old thing they were doing. They reinvent and innovate. That's what makes it a great company. One of the best imho. Do you hear any complaints coming from Valve? Seems to me they're happy with the direction they chose. They don't have a problem.
      - yoshibb 7y ago
        Hahaha. I love it. No complaints from the legacy engineers who are collecting million dollar salaries doing nothing, blowing smoke up gabes ass with vaporware. Out of the 100million American pc gamers--during peak western hours--less than a 1/4 are on steam. Everyone else on the inside and outside who don't want to see the company sold to activision-disney is a bit concerned. The goalpost will move, and it will continue to move as we continue to examine how bad the bed has been shit post orangebox. Millions upon millions of dollars spent over decades, with almost nothing to show. With any recent innovations coming from asset flips and indie teams.

bartimus 7y ago

Sorry, but even today (the most?) successful innovative games continue to come from people with engineering backgrounds. Also the engineers at Valve have continued to release games (Dota 2) and other valuable products that enabled many games to see the light of day. Also it makes sense that - when you build an app store - it's better not to work on creating products (games) that are in direct competition with your customers. I haven't said artists are useless. You guys contribute amazing things and surely have your roles to play. I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently. What we'll be seeing is that game engines will continue to become more like a sort of "Photoshop for games". It's where you guys will shine. Although I guarantee you some of the best titles will continue to come from engineers. Simply because engineers are their own audience. Artistic types tend to have different interests.

yoshibb 7y ago
So in the past couple decades, your ace in the hole is Dota? Damn, that's an entire game (that was mirrored from a w3 mod) Also: gen z gives absolutely zero shits about Mobas, so that's kind of a lost cause. What else do you got? Or is it just DOTA in two decades, that z gives no shits about, while the main moba demo ages out of gaming. And are you serious? "we can't compete with other games so we don't" This is exactly the kind of bs I'm talking about. Bunch of one hit wonder 1%ers who have been been sitting around in a vacuum playing widgets over at club valve over in bellevue, they haven't grown at all since the orange box.
- yoshibb 7y ago
  'I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently." This is the bias I am talking about. You guys are sitting at a near 0% in terms of creating new and interesting IP--and this is throughout the entire industry--I can count the good titles post-orange box era with one hand. Technology evolved: engineers realized they need visual people now, but for everything else were like: nah, we're good. Spoiler: you're not. No new titles, the titles that get through are disposable flavors of the month, at best. The amount of creativity engineers have shown is about equal to creatives skill in OOP. If a gulf engineers don't even know how to cross. If we could quantify the difference, it would be like asking a non tech person to do your netcode. We are talking about a lifetime a shaping here, you can't backload the skills any easier than I can backload the skills to build an engine.
  - bartimus 7y ago
    I don't work at Valve. You're missing my point. I didn't say we don't need artists. I'm saying you shouldn't have artists taking leading roles in the fields that aren't artistic. Perhaps you're doing a bit too much goalposting to make your argument? Ignoring all the groundbreaking titles (in any company). The other groundbreaking title that was released by Valve was of course Steam. The first app store. What makes Valve so great is that they're exactly not doing the same old thing they were doing. They reinvent and innovate. That's what makes it a great company. One of the best imho. Do you hear any complaints coming from Valve? Seems to me they're happy with the direction they chose. They don't have a problem.
    - yoshibb 7y ago
      Hahaha. I love it. No complaints from the legacy engineers who are collecting million dollar salaries doing nothing, blowing smoke up gabes ass with vaporware. Out of the 100million American pc gamers--during peak western hours--less than a 1/4 are on steam. Everyone else on the inside and outside who don't want to see the company sold to activision-disney is a bit concerned. The goalpost will move, and it will continue to move as we continue to examine how bad the bed has been shit post orangebox. Millions upon millions of dollars spent over decades, with almost nothing to show. With any recent innovations coming from asset flips and indie teams.