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The engineers have a pretty bad creative track record, and really have no idea what's in right now. Like for example the decision to pick up in the valley of t

The engineers have a pretty bad creative track record, and really have no idea what's in right now. Like for example the decision to pick up in the valley of the gods. Why? Women/lgbt are playing hero shooters, we don't need some bs exploration game. Fact is: engineers refuse to believe that creatives spent the same staggering amount of time honing their skills - it's just inconvenient because that means engineers possess about as much creativity as we do oop skills. That is a deep chasm. And it shows, pick a metric. They have had a near 0% success rate in creating new games outside the Orange box era. Which is incredibly unfortunate, because these guys think because they can build engines/hw they can make good art because it doesn't involve math, so easy. I see Activision valve in the decade if they don't make some pretty radical changes in the near future.

bartimus 7y ago
It's a common misconception the amount of creativity that is required to engineer a product. Engineers are the creatives! All the greatest game titles were designed by people with an engineering background. It was only later that some games got designed by artists using already existing game engines. The reason Valve isn't producing great games is not because they can't. It's because they don't want to.
- yoshibb 7y ago
  All the greatest titles of the early 70s-2000s and were products of their times. The hardware and systems were limited, and the basic level writing and direction matched the limited graphics. Fact is: engineers refuse to believe that creatives spent the same staggering amount of time honing their skills - it's just inconvenient because that means engineers possess about as much creativity as we do oop skills. That is a deep chasm. And it shows, pick a metric. They have had a near 0% success rate in creating new games outside the Orange box era. Valve hasn't made any games 100% because their engineers aren't creatives. It's kinda like the one hit wonder phenomenon. It's common in creative fields, like when an artist accidentally stumbles on a style and finds success, only to never be able to 'create something as good as the original' because they never had the skills in the first place--while the skills they actually need to create consistently take a lifetime to hone--so as creatives, they fade to obscurity.
  - bartimus 7y ago
    Sorry, but even today (the most?) successful innovative games continue to come from people with engineering backgrounds. Also the engineers at Valve have continued to release games (Dota 2) and other valuable products that enabled many games to see the light of day. Also it makes sense that - when you build an app store - it's better not to work on creating products (games) that are in direct competition with your customers. I haven't said artists are useless. You guys contribute amazing things and surely have your roles to play. I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently. What we'll be seeing is that game engines will continue to become more like a sort of "Photoshop for games". It's where you guys will shine. Although I guarantee you some of the best titles will continue to come from engineers. Simply because engineers are their own audience. Artistic types tend to have different interests.
    - yoshibb 7y ago
      So in the past couple decades, your ace in the hole is Dota? Damn, that's an entire game (that was mirrored from a w3 mod) Also: gen z gives absolutely zero shits about Mobas, so that's kind of a lost cause. What else do you got? Or is it just DOTA in two decades, that z gives no shits about, while the main moba demo ages out of gaming. And are you serious? "we can't compete with other games so we don't" This is exactly the kind of bs I'm talking about. Bunch of one hit wonder 1%ers who have been been sitting around in a vacuum playing widgets over at club valve over in bellevue, they haven't grown at all since the orange box.
      - yoshibb 7y ago
        'I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently." This is the bias I am talking about. You guys are sitting at a near 0% in terms of creating new and interesting IP--and this is throughout the entire industry--I can count the good titles post-orange box era with one hand. Technology evolved: engineers realized they need visual people now, but for everything else were like: nah, we're good. Spoiler: you're not. No new titles, the titles that get through are disposable flavors of the month, at best. The amount of creativity engineers have shown is about equal to creatives skill in OOP. If a gulf engineers don't even know how to cross. If we could quantify the difference, it would be like asking a non tech person to do your netcode. We are talking about a lifetime a shaping here, you can't backload the skills any easier than I can backload the skills to build an engine.

bartimus 7y ago

It's a common misconception the amount of creativity that is required to engineer a product. Engineers are the creatives! All the greatest game titles were designed by people with an engineering background. It was only later that some games got designed by artists using already existing game engines. The reason Valve isn't producing great games is not because they can't. It's because they don't want to.

yoshibb 7y ago
All the greatest titles of the early 70s-2000s and were products of their times. The hardware and systems were limited, and the basic level writing and direction matched the limited graphics. Fact is: engineers refuse to believe that creatives spent the same staggering amount of time honing their skills - it's just inconvenient because that means engineers possess about as much creativity as we do oop skills. That is a deep chasm. And it shows, pick a metric. They have had a near 0% success rate in creating new games outside the Orange box era. Valve hasn't made any games 100% because their engineers aren't creatives. It's kinda like the one hit wonder phenomenon. It's common in creative fields, like when an artist accidentally stumbles on a style and finds success, only to never be able to 'create something as good as the original' because they never had the skills in the first place--while the skills they actually need to create consistently take a lifetime to hone--so as creatives, they fade to obscurity.
- bartimus 7y ago
  Sorry, but even today (the most?) successful innovative games continue to come from people with engineering backgrounds. Also the engineers at Valve have continued to release games (Dota 2) and other valuable products that enabled many games to see the light of day. Also it makes sense that - when you build an app store - it's better not to work on creating products (games) that are in direct competition with your customers. I haven't said artists are useless. You guys contribute amazing things and surely have your roles to play. I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently. What we'll be seeing is that game engines will continue to become more like a sort of "Photoshop for games". It's where you guys will shine. Although I guarantee you some of the best titles will continue to come from engineers. Simply because engineers are their own audience. Artistic types tend to have different interests.
  - yoshibb 7y ago
    So in the past couple decades, your ace in the hole is Dota? Damn, that's an entire game (that was mirrored from a w3 mod) Also: gen z gives absolutely zero shits about Mobas, so that's kind of a lost cause. What else do you got? Or is it just DOTA in two decades, that z gives no shits about, while the main moba demo ages out of gaming. And are you serious? "we can't compete with other games so we don't" This is exactly the kind of bs I'm talking about. Bunch of one hit wonder 1%ers who have been been sitting around in a vacuum playing widgets over at club valve over in bellevue, they haven't grown at all since the orange box.
    - yoshibb 7y ago
      'I do however see a problem with non-engineers (taking your line of arguing) trying to obtain leading roles over creative processes in the field of engineering. It simply doesn't work. Or at least not efficiently." This is the bias I am talking about. You guys are sitting at a near 0% in terms of creating new and interesting IP--and this is throughout the entire industry--I can count the good titles post-orange box era with one hand. Technology evolved: engineers realized they need visual people now, but for everything else were like: nah, we're good. Spoiler: you're not. No new titles, the titles that get through are disposable flavors of the month, at best. The amount of creativity engineers have shown is about equal to creatives skill in OOP. If a gulf engineers don't even know how to cross. If we could quantify the difference, it would be like asking a non tech person to do your netcode. We are talking about a lifetime a shaping here, you can't backload the skills any easier than I can backload the skills to build an engine.