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India to order taxi aggregators like Uber, Ola to go electric

258 points by abhi3 7y ago

yeldarb 7y ago
How would this work? As far as I know neither of them owns the vehicles in their “fleet”. Do they just provide incentives for drivers to buy electric vehicles? Or is the government actually expecting them to put company-owned electric vehicles on the streets?
- Retric 7y ago
  It would limit their fleet sizes to 2.5x the number of electric vehicles. Depending on electric vechile adoption they might not need to do much. Presumably they would pay x$/month to EV owners in their fleets, deduct some fees from IC car owners, and or simply require higher customer approval etc.
- fooker 7y ago
  > How would this work? As far as I know neither of them owns the vehicles in their “fleet”. They partner with companies owning fleets who rent them to drivers at a low-ish cost. It seems entirely reasonable to put restrictions on the 'fleet'.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Uber doesn’t own any cars though. That’s a big part of their business model. Even a significant % of traditional taxis don’t own the cars. The taxi drivers are ‘brokers’ who buy and maintain the vehicles and make a deal with the taxi companies for business (branding, debit/credit card machines, running the phones, etc). Uber would have to require most new cars from drivers they hire to be electric in order to accomplish this. Otherwise they’ll be forced to get into the fleet buying/maintenance business.
    - damnyou 7y ago
      I'm sure Uber of all companies can create a system of incentives for this.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - dmix 7y ago
        The question is whether it will be economical for your standard Uber driver to own electric cars by 2026. Otherwise the number of people able to make money on the side p/t with their personal vehicle will be far smaller - therefore increasing the cost of fares if demand is higher than the supply of vehicles available. ‘Surge’ pricing already exists for this reason. Which will be good for electric car owners and Uber, bad for the average consumer rider who will pay higher fees and drivers who can’t afford an electric vehicle will be out of work.
        geofft 7y ago
        The whole point of making laws is to get people to do things that aren't economical to do in the absence of laws, or not do things that are economical to do in the absence of laws. I don't see why it's so incomprehensible that the government would ask a private business to do something that's not economical.
        dmix 7y ago
        Yes no ones debating that. Particularly in India with their long history of gov intervening in every sort of business. But those same people who call for this type of policy were already outraged at the idea of surge pricing and the service being more exclusive to the middle class and wealthy. I wouldn’t be surprised if this amplifies that. Not only for riders but also for the poor drivers who get excluded because they can’t afford a new electric car. Of course this policy is a bit of a gamble that those 4dr electric cars will be feasible and economical for your average Uber driver to own. It’s possible costs will be similar in 5yrs and won’t add too much expenses which will roll down hill.
- est31 7y ago
  How they change their fleets is their business. They could give higher compensation to people with EV's. They could treat ICE as if they weren't around when the maximum number of ICE cars is on the road.
  - wuliwong 7y ago
    >How they change their fleets is their business Why is this obvious? If the composition of their fleets is not their business why is it clear that the way they manage their fleets is? I would actually assume that there are probably loads of regulations that already govern the ways Uber can manage its fleet?
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      If they are regulated, it should come as no surprise when additional regulation is imposed. And they are regulated.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    They don’t own their own fleets, do they can’t change what they don’t have. It will be up to whoever is working on their platforms to procure EVs, and with India’s lack of developed EV production capacity and super high tariffs on imports, this goal completely unworkable by the deadline put forth.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Simplest way to make this work would be to gate new driver signup by vehicle type (with verification). If they are under 40% EVs then they wouldn't allow new non-EV drivers to sign up for the service at all. Also, they'd likely want to pay EV drivers more, to create the correct incentives to get enough EV vehicles into their "fleet".
  - nacs 7y ago
    This is not a solution at all. The churn rate on drivers is probably too high with Uber/Lyft services (most drivers aren't full time and do this when they feel like it). This means while the EV adoption is under the cutoff (40%) in your case, no new drivers would be joining while lots of drivers who are already active drivers become inactive. This means not only are Uber/Lyft not acquiring any drivers (or just signing up a tiny percentage that have EVs) while they lose a lot of their existing drivers.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      It sounds like it would work -- there'd be plenty of time when only EV drivers would be allowed to drive (since the quota isn't met at that moment). This would create a lot of incentive for people to get EVs, so that they could drive for Uber whenever they wanted, rather than only occasionally. These conditions would need to be imposed on taxis as well, for maximal effect. Grandfather in existing taxis, and then past a certain date, new taxis must be EVs.
      - Noos 7y ago
        You're asking low income workers to suddenly front the bill for an entirely new vehicle. This isn't going to happen. What will happen is the same thing that did to people with the affordable care act in the united states: it becomes a regressive tax they pay because the alternative is simply too expensive. Better to pay the tax penalty than an unaffordable insurance requirement per month.
        CydeWeys 7y ago
- rubber_duck 7y ago
  To be honest it would probably be better to add a progressively increasing tax on non-electric car fares - so first year it is announced, second year it's 5% of the fare, third it's 10%, fourth 15%, fifth 20%, etc. And use that tax pool to create programs for acquiring EVs (business or otherwise). You can even add an exemption to offset the start period by a year or two for cars bought within a year to avoid screwing over people who just invested in a new car for this purpose.
  - benj111 7y ago
    Wouldn't you want a higher tax earlier to offset the higher EV cost? A 1% tax isn't going to help if EVs are twice as expensive, whereas in 20 years time where hopefully EVs are approaching cost parity a 20% tax shouldn't be needed. But on the other hand you want to broadcast to everyone that in the medium term your taxi will need to be electric, so plan accordingly. Taxes are hard!
    - rubber_duck 7y ago
      Well you need to give time for market to readjust so the ramp-up is a grade period - but instead of doing it 1% per year you do it in 5% per year or some similar significant increment - this way you're clearly signaling what's going to happen without completely screwing people who invested in ICU.
  - Noos 7y ago
    The problem is it would just force people out of the market. Like in the USA the average car is getting up to the 25-35k range and is not something people can change to easily. You're asking someone working for Wal-mart wages (which tend to be what many Uber people essentially make) to incur a huge new debt load or progressively harsher taxes. You guys need to understand the impacts of the policies you recommend, because this is why people are against climate change efforts so vigorously.
    - rubber_duck 7y ago
      Well one option is to give subsidies for electric cars to offset this a bit, the other is hope that electric production ramps up and drives the cost down - that's why it would be increased gradually - from barely significant to unable to compete in 5 years. Around here we already have a law that any taxi drivers (Uber and others included) cannot use a car older than 5 years.
- adrianmonk 7y ago
  The simplest thing would be to change how the driver app assigns jobs. Under certain conditions, when they look at the Uber driver app, drivers of gasoline cars would just not see jobs available where drivers of electric cars (in the same location at the same time) would. Adjust conditions as necessary so that you hit your target (while also trying to minimize service disruption). Because Uber drivers can't make money if they can't accept jobs, this creates an incentive for drivers to have an electric vehicle. They can get jobs others can't. Eventually, the market should even work out the correct pricing. There's already a mechanism to pay more when drivers are in short supply. If the supply gets restricted because gasoline cars are sometimes ineligible, compensation has to go up (assuming Uber doesn't want to make customers wait forever for a ride).
- shasts 7y ago
  Well, how would this work is often an afterthought for Government in India. Last year they promised healthcare for bottom 40% of India, which in theory sounds nice for the elections and the masses, but fail to implement or allocate funds. Since this is primarily aimed at foreign companies operating in India, may be there could be some success, unless they bribe out of this. https://www.economist.com/asia/2018/09/27/indias-government-launches-a-vast-health-insurance-scheme https://www.economist.com/asia/2018/09/27/indias-government-...
trimbo 7y ago
Anyone know roughly how many hours various electric cars can go in a city taxi-driving setting before needing to be recharged?
- oyebenny 7y ago
  Aside from the fact that this is not an impressive goal, hopefully by that time we have electric cars with solar panels anyway.
  - marsRoverDev 7y ago
    I don't think that solar panels will be capable of generating enough power to make much of an impact on an electric car's mileage. Happy to be corrected.
    - b_tterc_p 7y ago
      Probably correct. Tesla had solar roofs stated as one of their second phase of goals but has since concluded it wouldn’t really work. An alternative model is to have fold out roofs that can operate while parked.
      - rtkwe 7y ago
        I don't think that will get you enough to really change the math. There's only so much additional space you can get with a fold out panel because once you start going over the edge of the car you create clearance requirements for parking and also start taking up space that's generally assumed to be empty for adjacent cars to open doors into. If it becomes too common parking spots will have to get bigger or your roof will have to raise up above the level of 99% of adjacent car doors to avoid being a massive pain in the ass to everyone else. On top of that it's a lot of mechanisms to add for not adding much space above a roof mounted panel.
    - gvb 7y ago
      The standard solar panel has an input rate of around 1000 Watts per square meter, however on the solar panels available at present you will only gain roughly 15-20% efficiency at best. Therefore if your solar panel was 1 square meter in size, then it would likely only produce around 150-200W in good sunlight. [1] For example: 2 square meter panel x 1000 = 2000 x 0.20 (20% efficiency panel) = 400. 400 x 5 hours of sun hours = 2000 Watt hours per day. [ibid] In 2012, the EPA range for the 60 kWh battery pack model was 208 mi (335 km) and the 85 kWh battery was 265 miles (426 km). [2] A Tesla gets about 3.5 miles per kWh, so you would be able to get about 7 miles of driving distance per day (5 hours of sunlight) of charging. Ref: [1] https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/how-much-electricity https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/how-much-electr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Battery
kumarvvr 7y ago
This is a good thing. But I really hope India invests a lot in public transportation and related infrastructure, especially in tier 2 and tier 3 cities.
- rrrazdan 7y ago
  We are. We are building metros in n>10 cities now.
mariushn 7y ago
7 years from now is quite late. Would prefer a 2-3 year deadline, along with plans on how cities will provide chargers before that deadline.
- tracker1 7y ago
  Where do you anticipate all these cars being made? What about the cars that are currently owned, where the sunk cost of mfg was already paid and it's more economical to continue using vs. replace? For example, if the U.S. required half of all cars sold be EV, then there would be no cars available to buy for 2-3 years just to ramp up production alone. Millions of jobs lost during that time too.
  - mariushn 7y ago
    We're talking only about ride hailing cars, right? Not all.
    - tracker1 7y ago
      It's only a matter of scale, in example to emphasis that the impact is not necessarily trivial as suggested.
LargeWu 7y ago
Based on Uber's history, they'll probably cook up some scheme to fraudulently register combustion vehicles as electric or find some other shady way around the regulation.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
  Ridiculous government regulation needs Uber style treatment. India is faaar from any electic car infrastructure. Like another comment said above, it's purely a PR move by the govt.
  - bhaavan 7y ago
    Yeah, let's not attempt do anything, because it's not perfect. /s
    - kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
      Grandstanding about doing something is very different from actually doing it. Grandstanding is free. That is what this 'reported order' is. To some extent it's the government's job to do this kind of PR, but we don't have to buy it hook line and sinker. When the government does something concrete to boost the infrastructure, I will be the first to applaud.
      - shripadk 7y ago
        > When the government does something concrete to boost the infrastructure, I will be the first to applaud. Yeah building roads and highways at record pace are not concrete enough to boost infrastructure right? https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/infra/modi-government-constructed-73-percent-more-highways-compared-upa-last-4-years/story/279060.html https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/infra/modi-government-c... "So far, the incumbent government has constructed a total of 28,531 km national highways since FY 2014-15, contrasting with 16,505 km by the previous government up to FY 2013-14, a clear gain of an astounding 12,026 kms, the Financial Express reported."
amrrs 7y ago
This is what you call a PR thing by Government. Why? * 2019 - 2026 - That's after (5+2) years which means it makes it easy for this current Government to pitch it before next election. * Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? * In Bangalore, Ola was banned for a month or so for a policy violation, only to be revoked just in 24 hours citing Public / Traffic / Driver's livelihood. * Uber and Ola drivers in cities like Bangalore are currently not even getting time for their food (lunch) and for them to sit aside and recharge the car seems another big 'would they ?' * Any news on Public Policy reg. Internet companies hit front page. Why not the government make better Public transport system? Why don't they increase the frequency of Government Bus ? Why don't they electrify Public transport? None of these would hail the Government as Elon Musk ish visionary other than this one.
- fourier_mode 7y ago
  > * Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? They don't own the fleet. But if the current regulation hits the books they cannot afford to lose their entire fleet as there is competition in the market(although barely). This is not that simple that the entire burden would be shifted on the drivers. I think what would happen is Uber/Ola would subsidize the drivers(thereby sharing the transitioning costs) to move to an electric motors.
- chki 7y ago
  Didn't the Indian election just happen a few months ago? So if this was just a PR thing wouldn't it have been better to do it just before the election and not right afterwards?
- lm28469 7y ago
  > * Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? Don't they require a modern car of a minimum size ? Just add more requirements.
- giis 7y ago
  >* Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? Who says so? Have you read about tie-up with Tata for EV ? https://www.indiatimes.com/auto/current/tata-nano-electric-may-debut-with-ola-cabs-1000-examples-to-join-fleet-368361.html https://www.indiatimes.com/auto/current/tata-nano-electric-m... Try to understand ground reality before making false claims. Btw, elections over just ~15 days back, if this just PR stunt, it makes more sense announce it during 7 week long election not after that.
olivermarks 7y ago
Seems crazy to me. Most taxi and uber/gypsy cab drivers run hybrid Priuses because they are the most cost effective and economical vehicles for this purpose in stop and go traffic. Insisting on EV's when charging tech is so inefficient and scarce seems hugely problematic for the foreseeable future. Seems a lousy investment for anyone wanting to make money providing a driving service through one of the mobile platform middlemen.
- najarvg 7y ago
  Your point is well-taken but there is an incredibly limited number of hybrid vehicles in India (only 2 actually) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_industry_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_industry_in... But given the age of India's electricity infrastructure and the huge challenges, this initiative would definitely present large challenges. The good news is that there is political will and a general absence of politically powerful retrograde lobbies to stop this from happening if tried sincerely.
  - monksy 7y ago
    Good luck getting a charge with the blackouts. Also.. most of the ubers (aka taxis) that I was in were suzuki Wagon Rs.
ramshanker 7y ago
So let's jump start the beginning of "S Curve of Electric Adoption" going for cars. 2 or 3 years back, Minister of Transport Mr. Nitin Gadkari had dropped a bombshell right in the middle of some mega Car Event. "I am NOT going to allow you to sell ICE post 2030". Audience was like ....... Awwwww Battery Mini-Riksaw are already dominating many of the small towns in India right now. Registration for Diesel Tri-wheelers is already stopped in some capital cities. Petrol may be on the way out too within 5 years.
vijaybritto 7y ago
I really don't think that this is valid in this govt anymore. Remember that the they ran the elections on fear, lies and deception. Development was not the agenda. Communal bigotry was always the main focal point. We have to remember that at least 2 well known terrorists are there in the parliament now as members. So please don't fool yourself with wild imaginations like 'development'. Set the bar low and they'll be always lower that!
- rrrazdan 7y ago
  There there. This is not the place for this discussion.
- pkd 7y ago
  This is quite off topic regardless of anyone's political opinions.
- dang 7y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20115236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20115236 and marked it off-topic.
plibither8 7y ago
This might be irrelevant to the topic at hand, but the cover image of the news article that the reader first sees is very misleading. It depicts nothing that might hint towards the article talking about Uber, Ola or electrification of their fleets. Yes, there appears to be a traffic jam (which in an indirect way can be linked to Uber and Ola being public modes of transport), but that is because there is a road-show going on related to an election.
KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
Are there domestic EV brands that are doing well there? Or is the expectation that Ola will fund it itself? Or buy foreign brands?
- samsungha 7y ago
  There are many local EV brands in the recent years. From Tata, Mahindra & Mahindra, Bajaj, Maruti etc.
naruvimama 7y ago
India has aggressive climate change commitments. It is setting long term expectations and providing guidelines to the biggest influencers [Uber/Ola]. It gives an indicator to the manufacturers, infra providers, service providers and the end consumers on what to expect. It is in line with their 2025 goals.
nonamechicken 7y ago
Some more info: >EV sales in India grew three-fold to 3,600 in the year ended March but still account for about 0.1% of the 3.3 million diesel and gasoline cars sold in the country over the period, industry data showed. China's electric car sales, meanwhile, rose 62% in 2018 to 1.3 million vehicles. >Motorcycles and scooters sold for commercial purposes, like food delivery or for use by e-commerce companies, will also need to be electric from April 2023, the person added. >Its Ola Electric Mobility unit in March raised ₹400 crore ($58 million) from investors including venture capital fund Tiger Global and Matrix Partners. >It also raised $300 million from Hyundai Motor and Kia Motors and formed a strategic partnership with the South Korean duo to help build India-specific EVs. https://www.livemint.com/politics/policy/india-set-to-order-uber-ola-other-taxi-aggregators-to-go-electric-1559820588642.html https://www.livemint.com/politics/policy/india-set-to-order-...
ShirsenduK 7y ago
* Uber/Ola do not own cars, and the owners take out loans to get one. Electric cars can be expensive to be financed for that income group. Uber's endgame is to own self-driving cars and not a normal car, atleast that was the dream :). * Indian car companies do not have electric cars (a real car can go for atleast 200kms a charge/refill). * A car factory(even non-electric) would take atleast 5 years to start churning cars. * Even in that case, it will have to import 40% of the cost ie batteries as India cannot make them. If it starts today, it can in 10 years. * Import duties of fully assembled, SKD and CKD electric cars is very high makes them uncompetitive to petrol/diesel cars. * Direct importing is not viable as it requires certification. * 60% of India's electric supply is coal based. And to top it; * Upto 50% of pollution a car will cause is done during production of the car ie before even a kilometre has been driven. Replacing lots of good working cars from the street is not environment friendly.
- avita1 7y ago
  Do you have a source for that last point? Even if that number is right, I would think that Uber/Ola cars have higher after-production emissions due to them being driven all day and being driven in city settings (as opposed to on a highway where cars are more efficient.)
  - ShirsenduK 7y ago
    I cannot recall a source as I read it at multiple places and the math made sense. This was the first link that showed up when I googled just now. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...
- ardit33 7y ago
  Nice analysis. The point that many people make: "* Upto 50% of pollution a car will cause is done during production of the car ie before even a kilometre has been driven. Replacing lots of good working cars from the street is not environment friendly." It is not just overall pollution, but where and how it is done that it is important. There is a huge difference between controlled pollution, from a factory away from large cities, and thousands of cars spewing emissions right into the core of urban centers. The second would cause more direct health issues and potentially deaths and overall unpleasantness.
throwmex 7y ago
Is it just me that thinks whenever a western media writes an article about India, they show an image of India in the worst possible way. For ex: Why does this article have to show a picture of a political rally ?
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Because the rally is collocated with a traffic jam?
  - praneshp 7y ago
    Ah, I think your parent comment should have asked for a non-stupid reason. An electric car is going to be in a traffic jam as well.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Yes, but it won't be spewing out any noxious gases while stranded in traffic (neither would a hybrid or a shut off idle car, but none of those are in that picture).
vishnu_ks 7y ago
Ola recently raised $56 million to spin out a dedicated business that focus only on electric vehicles. In March, Power Minister R. K. Singh said the government was aiming to ensure that at least 30% of the country's vehicles run on electricity by 2030, a significant dilution of the earlier-stated goal of an all-EV fleet by that year. https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/ola-ev-business-ola-electric-mobility/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/ola-ev-business-ola-electr...
InTheArena 7y ago
Having just been in India, I can safely say that Uber in India is one of the worst uber experiences I have seen, independently of this change. India's car policies will make this very difficult. Right now the "made in India" car restrictions means that India doesn't share car infrastructure with the rest of the world. From what a local was telling me, car manufacturers typically transfer their tooling from old product lines in other parts of the world when assembly lines are re-tooled to build cheaper India only vehicles. Thankfully, the big cities are so congested that the older model cars with older model safety systems, but this approach won't work with EVs, which are not yet mainstream in the rest of the world. My guess is that a modern version of a tuk-tuk would be ideal, but battery production is going to be a very big problem for this. India has the 3rd largest automobile market and a low level of vehicle adoption, but until they fix infrastructure, I don't see it happening.
dang 7y ago
Url changed from https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/06/india-electric-vehicles-2026-uber-ola/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/06/india-electric-vehicles-20..., which points to this.
Glench 7y ago
While I don't know about this specific policy, I'm happy that the push to electric vehicles (and hopefully carbon-free energy) is happening worldwide. This is one of the big areas we need to do absolutely immediately. Otherlab founder Saul Griffith has a great analysis about why electrifying cars and more of our technology is so necessary in the US here: https://medium.com/otherlab-news/decarbonization-and-gnd-b8ddd569de16 https://medium.com/otherlab-news/decarbonization-and-gnd-b8d... > "Without changing the size of our homes, or our cars, or fundamentally changing the fabric of our lives, a fully electrified energy economy using non-carbon fuel sources would require less than half of the total amount of energy we use today." Your next car should be electric.
yatharth_1 7y ago
To everyone recommending adding more restrictions to the cars that can be driven for rideshare companies, please, I don't know where you live but India is not at all as rich as your country. There's no infrastructure to support electric cars not to mention no drivers who can actually buy it. Here's an example, today I rode Uber for one journey for one hour and paid 500 Rs (7 USD). In US I pay more than 10USD for a few miles (may be 15 minutes) only. Do you really think this guy is going to buy an electric car? Yes it's a PR campaign, elections may be over but reelected government has to show that its better than past and what better way to make empty promises, which cost nothing. Every point made by ShirsenduK is to the mark about conditions in India.

258 points by abhi3 7y ago

How would this work? As far as I know neither of them owns the vehicles in their “fleet”. Do they just provide incentives for drivers to buy electric vehicles? Or is the government actually expecting them to put company-owned electric vehicles on the streets?

Retric 7y ago
It would limit their fleet sizes to 2.5x the number of electric vehicles. Depending on electric vechile adoption they might not need to do much. Presumably they would pay x$/month to EV owners in their fleets, deduct some fees from IC car owners, and or simply require higher customer approval etc.
fooker 7y ago
> How would this work? As far as I know neither of them owns the vehicles in their “fleet”. They partner with companies owning fleets who rent them to drivers at a low-ish cost. It seems entirely reasonable to put restrictions on the 'fleet'.
- dmix 7y ago
  Uber doesn’t own any cars though. That’s a big part of their business model. Even a significant % of traditional taxis don’t own the cars. The taxi drivers are ‘brokers’ who buy and maintain the vehicles and make a deal with the taxi companies for business (branding, debit/credit card machines, running the phones, etc). Uber would have to require most new cars from drivers they hire to be electric in order to accomplish this. Otherwise they’ll be forced to get into the fleet buying/maintenance business.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    I'm sure Uber of all companies can create a system of incentives for this.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - dmix 7y ago
      The question is whether it will be economical for your standard Uber driver to own electric cars by 2026. Otherwise the number of people able to make money on the side p/t with their personal vehicle will be far smaller - therefore increasing the cost of fares if demand is higher than the supply of vehicles available. ‘Surge’ pricing already exists for this reason. Which will be good for electric car owners and Uber, bad for the average consumer rider who will pay higher fees and drivers who can’t afford an electric vehicle will be out of work.
      - geofft 7y ago
        The whole point of making laws is to get people to do things that aren't economical to do in the absence of laws, or not do things that are economical to do in the absence of laws. I don't see why it's so incomprehensible that the government would ask a private business to do something that's not economical.
        dmix 7y ago
        Yes no ones debating that. Particularly in India with their long history of gov intervening in every sort of business. But those same people who call for this type of policy were already outraged at the idea of surge pricing and the service being more exclusive to the middle class and wealthy. I wouldn’t be surprised if this amplifies that. Not only for riders but also for the poor drivers who get excluded because they can’t afford a new electric car. Of course this policy is a bit of a gamble that those 4dr electric cars will be feasible and economical for your average Uber driver to own. It’s possible costs will be similar in 5yrs and won’t add too much expenses which will roll down hill.
est31 7y ago
How they change their fleets is their business. They could give higher compensation to people with EV's. They could treat ICE as if they weren't around when the maximum number of ICE cars is on the road.
- wuliwong 7y ago
  >How they change their fleets is their business Why is this obvious? If the composition of their fleets is not their business why is it clear that the way they manage their fleets is? I would actually assume that there are probably loads of regulations that already govern the ways Uber can manage its fleet?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    If they are regulated, it should come as no surprise when additional regulation is imposed. And they are regulated.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  They don’t own their own fleets, do they can’t change what they don’t have. It will be up to whoever is working on their platforms to procure EVs, and with India’s lack of developed EV production capacity and super high tariffs on imports, this goal completely unworkable by the deadline put forth.
CydeWeys 7y ago
Simplest way to make this work would be to gate new driver signup by vehicle type (with verification). If they are under 40% EVs then they wouldn't allow new non-EV drivers to sign up for the service at all. Also, they'd likely want to pay EV drivers more, to create the correct incentives to get enough EV vehicles into their "fleet".
- nacs 7y ago
  This is not a solution at all. The churn rate on drivers is probably too high with Uber/Lyft services (most drivers aren't full time and do this when they feel like it). This means while the EV adoption is under the cutoff (40%) in your case, no new drivers would be joining while lots of drivers who are already active drivers become inactive. This means not only are Uber/Lyft not acquiring any drivers (or just signing up a tiny percentage that have EVs) while they lose a lot of their existing drivers.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    It sounds like it would work -- there'd be plenty of time when only EV drivers would be allowed to drive (since the quota isn't met at that moment). This would create a lot of incentive for people to get EVs, so that they could drive for Uber whenever they wanted, rather than only occasionally. These conditions would need to be imposed on taxis as well, for maximal effect. Grandfather in existing taxis, and then past a certain date, new taxis must be EVs.
    - Noos 7y ago
      You're asking low income workers to suddenly front the bill for an entirely new vehicle. This isn't going to happen. What will happen is the same thing that did to people with the affordable care act in the united states: it becomes a regressive tax they pay because the alternative is simply too expensive. Better to pay the tax penalty than an unaffordable insurance requirement per month.
      - CydeWeys 7y ago
rubber_duck 7y ago
To be honest it would probably be better to add a progressively increasing tax on non-electric car fares - so first year it is announced, second year it's 5% of the fare, third it's 10%, fourth 15%, fifth 20%, etc. And use that tax pool to create programs for acquiring EVs (business or otherwise). You can even add an exemption to offset the start period by a year or two for cars bought within a year to avoid screwing over people who just invested in a new car for this purpose.
- benj111 7y ago
  Wouldn't you want a higher tax earlier to offset the higher EV cost? A 1% tax isn't going to help if EVs are twice as expensive, whereas in 20 years time where hopefully EVs are approaching cost parity a 20% tax shouldn't be needed. But on the other hand you want to broadcast to everyone that in the medium term your taxi will need to be electric, so plan accordingly. Taxes are hard!
  - rubber_duck 7y ago
    Well you need to give time for market to readjust so the ramp-up is a grade period - but instead of doing it 1% per year you do it in 5% per year or some similar significant increment - this way you're clearly signaling what's going to happen without completely screwing people who invested in ICU.
- Noos 7y ago
  The problem is it would just force people out of the market. Like in the USA the average car is getting up to the 25-35k range and is not something people can change to easily. You're asking someone working for Wal-mart wages (which tend to be what many Uber people essentially make) to incur a huge new debt load or progressively harsher taxes. You guys need to understand the impacts of the policies you recommend, because this is why people are against climate change efforts so vigorously.
  - rubber_duck 7y ago
    Well one option is to give subsidies for electric cars to offset this a bit, the other is hope that electric production ramps up and drives the cost down - that's why it would be increased gradually - from barely significant to unable to compete in 5 years. Around here we already have a law that any taxi drivers (Uber and others included) cannot use a car older than 5 years.
adrianmonk 7y ago
The simplest thing would be to change how the driver app assigns jobs. Under certain conditions, when they look at the Uber driver app, drivers of gasoline cars would just not see jobs available where drivers of electric cars (in the same location at the same time) would. Adjust conditions as necessary so that you hit your target (while also trying to minimize service disruption). Because Uber drivers can't make money if they can't accept jobs, this creates an incentive for drivers to have an electric vehicle. They can get jobs others can't. Eventually, the market should even work out the correct pricing. There's already a mechanism to pay more when drivers are in short supply. If the supply gets restricted because gasoline cars are sometimes ineligible, compensation has to go up (assuming Uber doesn't want to make customers wait forever for a ride).
shasts 7y ago
Well, how would this work is often an afterthought for Government in India. Last year they promised healthcare for bottom 40% of India, which in theory sounds nice for the elections and the masses, but fail to implement or allocate funds. Since this is primarily aimed at foreign companies operating in India, may be there could be some success, unless they bribe out of this. https://www.economist.com/asia/2018/09/27/indias-government-launches-a-vast-health-insurance-scheme https://www.economist.com/asia/2018/09/27/indias-government-...

trimbo 7y ago

Anyone know roughly how many hours various electric cars can go in a city taxi-driving setting before needing to be recharged?

oyebenny 7y ago
Aside from the fact that this is not an impressive goal, hopefully by that time we have electric cars with solar panels anyway.
- marsRoverDev 7y ago
  I don't think that solar panels will be capable of generating enough power to make much of an impact on an electric car's mileage. Happy to be corrected.
  - b_tterc_p 7y ago
    Probably correct. Tesla had solar roofs stated as one of their second phase of goals but has since concluded it wouldn’t really work. An alternative model is to have fold out roofs that can operate while parked.
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      I don't think that will get you enough to really change the math. There's only so much additional space you can get with a fold out panel because once you start going over the edge of the car you create clearance requirements for parking and also start taking up space that's generally assumed to be empty for adjacent cars to open doors into. If it becomes too common parking spots will have to get bigger or your roof will have to raise up above the level of 99% of adjacent car doors to avoid being a massive pain in the ass to everyone else. On top of that it's a lot of mechanisms to add for not adding much space above a roof mounted panel.
  - gvb 7y ago
    The standard solar panel has an input rate of around 1000 Watts per square meter, however on the solar panels available at present you will only gain roughly 15-20% efficiency at best. Therefore if your solar panel was 1 square meter in size, then it would likely only produce around 150-200W in good sunlight. [1] For example: 2 square meter panel x 1000 = 2000 x 0.20 (20% efficiency panel) = 400. 400 x 5 hours of sun hours = 2000 Watt hours per day. [ibid] In 2012, the EPA range for the 60 kWh battery pack model was 208 mi (335 km) and the 85 kWh battery was 265 miles (426 km). [2] A Tesla gets about 3.5 miles per kWh, so you would be able to get about 7 miles of driving distance per day (5 hours of sunlight) of charging. Ref: [1] https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/how-much-electricity https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/how-much-electr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Battery

kumarvvr 7y ago

This is a good thing. But I really hope India invests a lot in public transportation and related infrastructure, especially in tier 2 and tier 3 cities.

rrrazdan 7y ago
We are. We are building metros in n>10 cities now.

mariushn 7y ago

7 years from now is quite late. Would prefer a 2-3 year deadline, along with plans on how cities will provide chargers before that deadline.

tracker1 7y ago
Where do you anticipate all these cars being made? What about the cars that are currently owned, where the sunk cost of mfg was already paid and it's more economical to continue using vs. replace? For example, if the U.S. required half of all cars sold be EV, then there would be no cars available to buy for 2-3 years just to ramp up production alone. Millions of jobs lost during that time too.
- mariushn 7y ago
  We're talking only about ride hailing cars, right? Not all.
  - tracker1 7y ago
    It's only a matter of scale, in example to emphasis that the impact is not necessarily trivial as suggested.

LargeWu 7y ago

Based on Uber's history, they'll probably cook up some scheme to fraudulently register combustion vehicles as electric or find some other shady way around the regulation.

kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
Ridiculous government regulation needs Uber style treatment. India is faaar from any electic car infrastructure. Like another comment said above, it's purely a PR move by the govt.
- bhaavan 7y ago
  Yeah, let's not attempt do anything, because it's not perfect. /s
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
    Grandstanding about doing something is very different from actually doing it. Grandstanding is free. That is what this 'reported order' is. To some extent it's the government's job to do this kind of PR, but we don't have to buy it hook line and sinker. When the government does something concrete to boost the infrastructure, I will be the first to applaud.
    - shripadk 7y ago
      > When the government does something concrete to boost the infrastructure, I will be the first to applaud. Yeah building roads and highways at record pace are not concrete enough to boost infrastructure right? https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/infra/modi-government-constructed-73-percent-more-highways-compared-upa-last-4-years/story/279060.html https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/infra/modi-government-c... "So far, the incumbent government has constructed a total of 28,531 km national highways since FY 2014-15, contrasting with 16,505 km by the previous government up to FY 2013-14, a clear gain of an astounding 12,026 kms, the Financial Express reported."

amrrs 7y ago

This is what you call a PR thing by Government. Why? * 2019 - 2026 - That's after (5+2) years which means it makes it easy for this current Government to pitch it before next election. * Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? * In Bangalore, Ola was banned for a month or so for a policy violation, only to be revoked just in 24 hours citing Public / Traffic / Driver's livelihood. * Uber and Ola drivers in cities like Bangalore are currently not even getting time for their food (lunch) and for them to sit aside and recharge the car seems another big 'would they ?' * Any news on Public Policy reg. Internet companies hit front page. Why not the government make better Public transport system? Why don't they increase the frequency of Government Bus ? Why don't they electrify Public transport? None of these would hail the Government as Elon Musk ish visionary other than this one.

fourier_mode 7y ago
> * Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? They don't own the fleet. But if the current regulation hits the books they cannot afford to lose their entire fleet as there is competition in the market(although barely). This is not that simple that the entire burden would be shifted on the drivers. I think what would happen is Uber/Ola would subsidize the drivers(thereby sharing the transitioning costs) to move to an electric motors.
chki 7y ago
Didn't the Indian election just happen a few months ago? So if this was just a PR thing wouldn't it have been better to do it just before the election and not right afterwards?
lm28469 7y ago
> * Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? Don't they require a modern car of a minimum size ? Just add more requirements.
giis 7y ago
>* Everyone knows Uber and Ola don't own their fleet so who'll be accountable? Who says so? Have you read about tie-up with Tata for EV ? https://www.indiatimes.com/auto/current/tata-nano-electric-may-debut-with-ola-cabs-1000-examples-to-join-fleet-368361.html https://www.indiatimes.com/auto/current/tata-nano-electric-m... Try to understand ground reality before making false claims. Btw, elections over just ~15 days back, if this just PR stunt, it makes more sense announce it during 7 week long election not after that.

olivermarks 7y ago

Seems crazy to me. Most taxi and uber/gypsy cab drivers run hybrid Priuses because they are the most cost effective and economical vehicles for this purpose in stop and go traffic. Insisting on EV's when charging tech is so inefficient and scarce seems hugely problematic for the foreseeable future. Seems a lousy investment for anyone wanting to make money providing a driving service through one of the mobile platform middlemen.

najarvg 7y ago
Your point is well-taken but there is an incredibly limited number of hybrid vehicles in India (only 2 actually) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_industry_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_industry_in... But given the age of India's electricity infrastructure and the huge challenges, this initiative would definitely present large challenges. The good news is that there is political will and a general absence of politically powerful retrograde lobbies to stop this from happening if tried sincerely.
- monksy 7y ago
  Good luck getting a charge with the blackouts. Also.. most of the ubers (aka taxis) that I was in were suzuki Wagon Rs.

ramshanker 7y ago

So let's jump start the beginning of "S Curve of Electric Adoption" going for cars. 2 or 3 years back, Minister of Transport Mr. Nitin Gadkari had dropped a bombshell right in the middle of some mega Car Event. "I am NOT going to allow you to sell ICE post 2030". Audience was like ....... Awwwww Battery Mini-Riksaw are already dominating many of the small towns in India right now. Registration for Diesel Tri-wheelers is already stopped in some capital cities. Petrol may be on the way out too within 5 years.

vijaybritto 7y ago

I really don't think that this is valid in this govt anymore. Remember that the they ran the elections on fear, lies and deception. Development was not the agenda. Communal bigotry was always the main focal point. We have to remember that at least 2 well known terrorists are there in the parliament now as members. So please don't fool yourself with wild imaginations like 'development'. Set the bar low and they'll be always lower that!

rrrazdan 7y ago
There there. This is not the place for this discussion.
pkd 7y ago
This is quite off topic regardless of anyone's political opinions.
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20115236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20115236 and marked it off-topic.

plibither8 7y ago

This might be irrelevant to the topic at hand, but the cover image of the news article that the reader first sees is very misleading. It depicts nothing that might hint towards the article talking about Uber, Ola or electrification of their fleets. Yes, there appears to be a traffic jam (which in an indirect way can be linked to Uber and Ola being public modes of transport), but that is because there is a road-show going on related to an election.

KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago

Are there domestic EV brands that are doing well there? Or is the expectation that Ola will fund it itself? Or buy foreign brands?

samsungha 7y ago
There are many local EV brands in the recent years. From Tata, Mahindra & Mahindra, Bajaj, Maruti etc.

naruvimama 7y ago

India has aggressive climate change commitments. It is setting long term expectations and providing guidelines to the biggest influencers [Uber/Ola]. It gives an indicator to the manufacturers, infra providers, service providers and the end consumers on what to expect. It is in line with their 2025 goals.

nonamechicken 7y ago

Some more info: >EV sales in India grew three-fold to 3,600 in the year ended March but still account for about 0.1% of the 3.3 million diesel and gasoline cars sold in the country over the period, industry data showed. China's electric car sales, meanwhile, rose 62% in 2018 to 1.3 million vehicles. >Motorcycles and scooters sold for commercial purposes, like food delivery or for use by e-commerce companies, will also need to be electric from April 2023, the person added. >Its Ola Electric Mobility unit in March raised ₹400 crore ($58 million) from investors including venture capital fund Tiger Global and Matrix Partners. >It also raised $300 million from Hyundai Motor and Kia Motors and formed a strategic partnership with the South Korean duo to help build India-specific EVs. https://www.livemint.com/politics/policy/india-set-to-order-uber-ola-other-taxi-aggregators-to-go-electric-1559820588642.html https://www.livemint.com/politics/policy/india-set-to-order-...

ShirsenduK 7y ago

* Uber/Ola do not own cars, and the owners take out loans to get one. Electric cars can be expensive to be financed for that income group. Uber's endgame is to own self-driving cars and not a normal car, atleast that was the dream :). * Indian car companies do not have electric cars (a real car can go for atleast 200kms a charge/refill). * A car factory(even non-electric) would take atleast 5 years to start churning cars. * Even in that case, it will have to import 40% of the cost ie batteries as India cannot make them. If it starts today, it can in 10 years. * Import duties of fully assembled, SKD and CKD electric cars is very high makes them uncompetitive to petrol/diesel cars. * Direct importing is not viable as it requires certification. * 60% of India's electric supply is coal based. And to top it; * Upto 50% of pollution a car will cause is done during production of the car ie before even a kilometre has been driven. Replacing lots of good working cars from the street is not environment friendly.

avita1 7y ago
Do you have a source for that last point? Even if that number is right, I would think that Uber/Ola cars have higher after-production emissions due to them being driven all day and being driven in city settings (as opposed to on a highway where cars are more efficient.)
- ShirsenduK 7y ago
  I cannot recall a source as I read it at multiple places and the math made sense. This was the first link that showed up when I googled just now. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...
ardit33 7y ago
Nice analysis. The point that many people make: "* Upto 50% of pollution a car will cause is done during production of the car ie before even a kilometre has been driven. Replacing lots of good working cars from the street is not environment friendly." It is not just overall pollution, but where and how it is done that it is important. There is a huge difference between controlled pollution, from a factory away from large cities, and thousands of cars spewing emissions right into the core of urban centers. The second would cause more direct health issues and potentially deaths and overall unpleasantness.

throwmex 7y ago

Is it just me that thinks whenever a western media writes an article about India, they show an image of India in the worst possible way. For ex: Why does this article have to show a picture of a political rally ?

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Because the rally is collocated with a traffic jam?
- praneshp 7y ago
  Ah, I think your parent comment should have asked for a non-stupid reason. An electric car is going to be in a traffic jam as well.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Yes, but it won't be spewing out any noxious gases while stranded in traffic (neither would a hybrid or a shut off idle car, but none of those are in that picture).

vishnu_ks 7y ago

Ola recently raised $56 million to spin out a dedicated business that focus only on electric vehicles. In March, Power Minister R. K. Singh said the government was aiming to ensure that at least 30% of the country's vehicles run on electricity by 2030, a significant dilution of the earlier-stated goal of an all-EV fleet by that year. https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/ola-ev-business-ola-electric-mobility/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/ola-ev-business-ola-electr...

InTheArena 7y ago

Having just been in India, I can safely say that Uber in India is one of the worst uber experiences I have seen, independently of this change. India's car policies will make this very difficult. Right now the "made in India" car restrictions means that India doesn't share car infrastructure with the rest of the world. From what a local was telling me, car manufacturers typically transfer their tooling from old product lines in other parts of the world when assembly lines are re-tooled to build cheaper India only vehicles. Thankfully, the big cities are so congested that the older model cars with older model safety systems, but this approach won't work with EVs, which are not yet mainstream in the rest of the world. My guess is that a modern version of a tuk-tuk would be ideal, but battery production is going to be a very big problem for this. India has the 3rd largest automobile market and a low level of vehicle adoption, but until they fix infrastructure, I don't see it happening.

dang 7y ago

Url changed from https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/06/india-electric-vehicles-2026-uber-ola/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/06/india-electric-vehicles-20..., which points to this.

Glench 7y ago

While I don't know about this specific policy, I'm happy that the push to electric vehicles (and hopefully carbon-free energy) is happening worldwide. This is one of the big areas we need to do absolutely immediately. Otherlab founder Saul Griffith has a great analysis about why electrifying cars and more of our technology is so necessary in the US here: https://medium.com/otherlab-news/decarbonization-and-gnd-b8ddd569de16 https://medium.com/otherlab-news/decarbonization-and-gnd-b8d... > "Without changing the size of our homes, or our cars, or fundamentally changing the fabric of our lives, a fully electrified energy economy using non-carbon fuel sources would require less than half of the total amount of energy we use today." Your next car should be electric.

yatharth_1 7y ago

To everyone recommending adding more restrictions to the cars that can be driven for rideshare companies, please, I don't know where you live but India is not at all as rich as your country. There's no infrastructure to support electric cars not to mention no drivers who can actually buy it. Here's an example, today I rode Uber for one journey for one hour and paid 500 Rs (7 USD). In US I pay more than 10USD for a few miles (may be 15 minutes) only. Do you really think this guy is going to buy an electric car? Yes it's a PR campaign, elections may be over but reelected government has to show that its better than past and what better way to make empty promises, which cost nothing. Every point made by ShirsenduK is to the mark about conditions in India.