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Michelin Rolls Out an Airless Tire That Will Be “Puncture-Proof”
- amriksohata 7y agoThey could have made this a long time ago but the industry backed by giants like Goodyear, Dunlop, pirelli etc would lose out on their business model of replacement tyres so wouldn't push it. Similar thing happened to the electric car in the 90s California had quite a few, but the oil industry killed them off, watch the programme "who killed the electric car"
- growlist 7y agoWow. That's probably millions more jobs gone then for tyre shops, though obviously there will be a slow switchover.
- magwa101 7y agoDrive with a screwdriver and pliers so you can pluck out all the rocks you pick up.
- eganist 7y agoCan anyone hypothesize why there's no sidewall on these? Anything I come up with in my own mind I end up defeating. Unrelated: > max load of 1102 pounds. I have to assume this is per tire considering the Chevy Bolt weighs 3,600lbs but it's not clear from the article.
- mensetmanusman 7y agoI’m guessing weight. The added inertia would provide more shear stress in the rubber to get the tire accelerating. That could have a lifetime affect due to crazing in the polymer/fiber network (which can be especially prone to failure due to interfacial failure between the solid fibers and polymer matrix).
- martin_henk 7y agoi don't know why, but adding a wall seems like stiffening the whole wheel. secondly, manufacturing the same thing with walls seem kind of impossible.
- elliekelly 7y agoI’m guessing because a sidewall on the tire wouldn’t be “airless”? And they’d have to check/monitor the air pressure of each of the “pockets” of air as temperature changes? Full disclosure: I say this as someone who knows next to nothing about tires/tire pressure/cars in general. My tire pressure light has been on for at least three months now.
- jfk13 7y ago> My tire pressure light has been on for at least three months now. Maybe worth getting that checked?
- elliekelly 7y agoIndeed, I'm told it's a sensor malfunction not the tire pressure. Apparently it's a known issue with Toyotas. The mechanic is nice enough to check the pressure for me when he sees me getting gas since the "new" sensor (sensors?) didn't keep the light off very long.
- jodrellblank 7y agoMy tire pressure light has been on for at least three months now. From https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/tyre-pressures https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/tyre-pressures "Under inflated tyres will increase stopping distances and affect your vehicle’s handling so that collisions are more likely; Under inflated tyres will flex more and get hotter, making sudden tyre failure – blowouts – more likely; Under or over inflation increases tyre wear so you’ll have to buy new tyres more often; Under inflation increases your tyre’s rolling resistance which means higher fuel consumption"
- astura 7y agoPlease fill your tires, driving on under inflated tires is dangerous.
- MisterTea 7y ago> I have to assume this is per tire considering the Chevy Bolt weighs 3,600lbs but it's not clear from the article. Your assumption is correct. Tire load ratings are per tire.
- Angostura 7y agoI assumed the sidewall had been cut away simply for the marketing images to show what is going on inside. I have no doubt the real thing will have a sidewall.
- mhb 7y agoSeems likely since they will want to keep snow, ice, debris, out. But it can just be of a material to prevent that.
- jakear 7y agoArticle says “Michelin has introduced a .... [tire] that has no traditional sidewall”. So seems like it may not.
- Angostura 7y agoSeems like I'm entirely wrong. I still reckon this gimmick will go.
- smugworth 7y agoIf the tire had closed sidewalls, you'd never know someone had the new tires without obtrusive labelling. Open sidewalls market themselves, not only do you see it's a different tire, you see it's an entirely different tire design that's relatively easy to comprehend the benefit of even if you know nothing about them.
- swish_bob 7y agoI'm not clear why people are leaping directly from "no traditional sidewall" to "no sidewall". It seems pretty likely that there will be a lightweight, porous, tough and possibly flexible sidewall just to keep rocks. etc out. Otherwise you're going to pick up sand, grit and rocks constantly.
- mensetmanusman 7y agoThis is awesome. Our van had a tire slashed at a church parking lot that was renting space to the high school under construction. It didn’t collapse until after a 5 minute drive was completed when it was (thankfully) at rest. Exploding tires on the highway at 70 MPH aren’t fun to think about.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoI really dislike the internet circle jerk about blowouts. It's not quite "making a mountain out of a mole hill" but it's definitely in the "making a mountain out of a dirt pile" ballpark. Been there. Done that. Getting a flat tire sucks but blowouts aren't thaaaaat much worse. It's basically just an instant flat tire. It's not any worse than sidewall failure. I personally prefer rear over front (usually less crap for the tire to destroy out back) and I'd take a blowout over tread separation (which tends to fling around a bunch of rubber destroying anything in its path) any day of the week. Just don't be an idiots and respond with massive steering/brake inputs and a blowout, like any other flat, will be fine. If they were really that dangerous there wouldn't be all sorts of youtube videos where they are intentionally created in order to show how possible it is handle them and that normal people (i.e. not professionals) can be expected to handle them safely.
- JosephRedfern 7y agoBlowouts are dangerous and should be avoided where possible. Don't mock or undermine this person's fear of them, it's a perfectly rational thing to want to avoid. They may sometimes be over exaggerated, but that doesn't make them safe. Your annecdotal evidence of them not being "thaaaaat bad" doesn't really add much to this discussion, and your suggestion that the fact that artificially created blowouts on YouTube exist means that they aren't very dangerous is, IMO, laughable. There are hundreds of controlled demonstrations of chip-pan fires on YouTube... that doesn't imply in any way that chip-pan fire "in the wild" are not dangerous.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoBlowouts are only specifically called out as being dangerous because they tend to happen without highly obvious warning, require the user to take action to prevent them from causing other problems, and happen at highway speed. Any situation that happens rarely and requires the average Joe to take action is going to be "dangerous" at scale because some people are inevitably gonna panic and screw it up. Blowouts are something people feel they are not in control of so they fear it more than they should.
- wmeredith 7y agoAt first glance I can’t tell how this overcomes the problems of the “Tweel” because it looks just like it (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweel). Also made by Michelin, Tweels are really loud at high speed and they easily pick up stuff in their open sidewall structure leading to out of balance issues at speed-vibration. So they’ve mostly been deployed in low-speed, low-debris environments, like on forklifts in warehouses. This looks like a different structural fin design, so maybe they’ve fixed the noise issue, but you still have an open sidewall to fill with mud, ice, rocks, etc...
- eganist 7y agoSomething advanced by the tire's lead evangelist at Michelin: > "If you have a load on the tire and you cut all the spokes at the bottom, you will see that nothing will change, demonstrating that the load is carried by the top of it, not by the under parts." Other airless tires, he said, often carry the load at the bottom of the tire, which is very inefficient and causes extra heating due to compression.
- zrobotics 7y agoThat just emphasizes the internal load distribution, it doesn't address concerns about mud/ice filling the sidewall. Sadly this is article is just a press release with very little technical information. Tires like these already exist for industrial equipment, Michelin does need to address these very real concerns. I am also concerned about the ecological impacts, it appears the tire uses more rubber than conventional tires, the only way this isn't worse is if it is safely recappable. It may be, but again the article doesn't state so.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoI suspect these are going to be much more sensitive to overloading than normal tires since they're gonna be specifically matched to the vehicle weight (unlike a pneumatic tire which can carry far more than vehicle but is simply inflated to a specific pressure for NVH/handling) you can't just air them up by a few pounds. You can't add more pressure to a non-pneumatic tire so it's simply going to deform more and generate more heat if you add more load. There's no good way around that. One of the nice things about a pneumatic tire is that you can air down if you need low ground pressure. I guess that goes out the window too. These will probably work really well in some use cases but barring some massive groundbreaking improvement I wouldn't expect to see these replacing conventional pneumatic tires over the next decade or two. Edit: I'm talking about these tires in the general case, not specifically as they exist on a Bolt.
- eganist 7y ago> I suspect these are going to be much more sensitive to overloading than normal tires since they're gonna be specifically matched to the vehicle weight (unlike a pneumatic tire which can carry far more than vehicle but is simply inflated to a specific pressure for NVH/handling) you can't just air them up by a few pounds. Interestingly, there's only 845lbs wiggle room on these tires as installed on the Chevy Bolt assuming the standard Bolt configuration at 3,563lbs and the carrying capacity of the tire at 1,102lbs. After accounting for your average American family of four (or just the weight of two men and two women) at 728lbs, you're left with 117lbs for the fifth person or belongings. ...so even if they're prototypes, I hope they've been over-engineered. That said, I want them to succeed.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago800lb is a perfectly normal capacity for anything built on a passenger car platform. Considering the bolt is a subcompact I'd actually say having ~800lb of "OEM approved"[0] capacity actually seems pretty good. I suspect most of that stems from having to build a beefier car to carry around those batteries 100% of the time while not having an unreasonably short service life for suspension components. In showroom configuration 99.99% of vehicles are only spec'd with tires that barely exceed the GWVR. That said, with a pneumatic tire you can just air it up higher than the OEM tells you to and you're good for more GVW at the expense of the tire wearing faster. Obviously you need to be reasonable about it but tires are pretty durable even over their stated weight rating as long as you don't run them hot (airing up reduces flex therefore reducing heat). It will be very interesting to see if they come out in other sizes/capacities. They already make similar tires for off road use but they aren't suitable for road speeds (go figure) [0] https://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?276641-What-is-Bolt-EV-weight-capacity-(GVWR)&s=1959a18499d799c25ea6f5a1d2580a16&p=3875441#post3875441 https://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?276641-What-is-Bolt...
- lm28469 7y agoIf you want to see something similar in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wAvxQfusWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wAvxQfusWU
- elliekelly 7y ago> "If you have a load on the tire and you cut all the spokes at the bottom, you will see that nothing will change, demonstrating that the load is carried by the top of it, not by the under parts." Other airless tires, he said, often carry the load at the bottom of the tire, which is very inefficient and causes extra heating due to compression. I’m a bit confused by this. Is the resin-embedded fiberglass that Uptis uses to make this possible in the tire or is this a new hub that makes the airless tire possible?
- elliekelly 7y agoToo late for me to edit my comment but for anyone curious, I asked Michelin for clarification and it turns out the tire "spokes" are made from a composite rubber and resin embedded fiberglass. So it has the flexibility/movement of rubber but is high strength from the resin embedded fiberglass. It's on an aluminum hub just like any other tire.
- pi-rat 7y agoThe main structure of the tire looks almost like voronoi 3d mesh. Do you think it's voronoi, or just looks similar? I'm kinda surprised they didn't go for something like a gyroid mesh.
- jstapels 7y agoHow would these be serviced? I would be surprised if conventional tire machines could mount/unmount these from wheels.
- maxerickson 7y agoIt's both parts, there's no separate wheel.
- lqet 7y agoSomething like that already exists for bikes (English link in the comment below): https://www.schwalbe.com/de/pressereader/weltneuheit-schwalbe-airless-system.html https://www.schwalbe.com/de/pressereader/weltneuheit-schwalb... However, if I recall some reviews correctly, it is quite complicated to install.
- glaberficken 7y agoenglish link: https://www.schwalbe.com/en/pressereader/schwalbes-world-first-airless-system.html https://www.schwalbe.com/en/pressereader/schwalbes-world-fir...
- jfengel 7y agoI had foam-based bike tires 20 years ago, and they were quite awful. They cushion by flattening out on the bottom, creating an enormous rolling resistance. It was like pushing uphill everywhere. This isn't quite the same, but in calling it the "first airless system" it sounds like they had done zero research on previous systems and have no idea what the potential problems are. The new Michelin system is a rather different concept. I dunno if it will adapt to bike tires or not, but it would be great if it can.
- martyvis 7y agoWhy would it take 5 years before they are production ready? It would seem if you are showing a product ready to test on real roads, you'd have to be much closer to shipping than that would indicate.
- hprotagonist 7y agohttps://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_aa-l.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_aa-l.html Airless tires have been obsolete for over a century, but crackpot "inventors" keep trying to bring them back. They are heavy and slow. They give a harsh ride and poor high-speed cornering on rough surfaces. They are also likely to cause wheel damage, due to their poor cushioning ability. A pneumatic tire uses all of the air in the whole tube as a shock absorber, while foam-type "airless" tires/tubes only use the air in the immediate area of impact...
- leereeves 7y agoThe article acknowledges that: > Unlike past attempts at airless tires, Uptis functions the way other modern tires do and, Michelin claims, will provide a similar driving experience. And I doubt Michelin is leaving this up to "crackpot inventors".
- hprotagonist 7y agoI’ve seen the exact same design crash and burn three times from respectable companies in the bicycle and motorcycle world. Hard ride, bad traction, pain in the royal butt to service or install...i don’t see these things changing just because the tire’s on a car now. i predict we hear nothing else about this design.
- gameswithgo 7y agoAs someone with a degree of practical expertise in Tires both automotive and cycling, who has seen this idea come and go a lot of times, I too remain fairly confident this tire will be fairly terrible compared to pneumatic tires, and useful only in fringe use cases where getting flats is a serious problem. I will of course be happy to be wrong!
- nwah1 7y agoBecause the wheel and tire would both be constructed out of fiberglass webbing, it seems like this could potentially reduce weight. But whether it provides enough durability, traction, and a smooth riding experience is unclear. I'm rooting for them. Michelin definitely aren't crackpots.
- chungleong 7y agoShould such tires be available to the general public? Many locations rely on tire shredders for perimeter security. These measure will become useless. As will spike strips used by law enforcement. How will police be able to stop fugitive vehicles equipped with puncture-proof tires? Some sort of remotely activated kill-switch will have to be mandated.
- michaelmrose 7y agoNeither consumers nor Consumer products should be primarily concerned with law enforcement convenience. Car makers expertise at making cars is often pretty bad their expertise with electronics and software security is hilariously bad. A universal remote kill switch is a very bad idea especially in response to a tire that might be in production for a tiny fraction of cars 5 years from now and with a wildly successful and unlikely uptake could be pervasive in merely decades. Given motivation I'm sure people can probably figure out a low tech solution that does not involve figuring out how to fit all cars going forward with a backdoor that will almost certainly be exploited. For example perhaps something could damage or foul the wheel or clamp onto it.
- hirundo 7y ago> Theoretically, the tread life for the Uptis is the same as a standard tire Imagine the disaster a much longer tread life on this tire would be to Michelin and tire shops. Even if Michelin could maintain their profit with proportionately higher prices, tire shops would be hammered by a long life tire. I'm not claiming that such a tread is out there and being suppressed. But if it were a plausible but expensive engineering problem there would be a great incentive, especially by market leaders like Michelin, not to pursue it. But wouldn't it be wonderful to buy a car with tires that are expected to last as long as the rest of the car. I can dream.
- snazz 7y agoSounds like a wonderful market opportunity for a “disruptive” startup. As much as I dislike Tesla for other reasons, building tires that last for the life of the car would probably be good for their bottom line.
- mc32 7y agoYep, that would be the digital sensor vs analog film scenario all over again. Kodak lost out (even though they were one of the first with quality high resolution sensors) because they didn’t want to cannibalizes and threaten their cash cow (and legacy or patrimony).
- sschueller 7y agoI don't think it would have such a large impact since many tires get destroyed before their tread is up. Punktures and curbing hapens a lot especially in cities with poorly maintained pavements which is saddly quite common. Then you have that many cars now want you to replace at minimum 2 tires and not just the one that has been punctured.
- mc32 7y agoWhatever happened to re-vulcanizing tires? Trucks and tractors still have their worn treads re-vulcanized. Why not private autos? Seems it would be friendlier to the pocket (not having to buy a whole new set) and friendlier to the environment...
- shusson 7y agoIt's really nice to see someone actually re-invent the wheel.
- josefresco 7y agoI had "run flats" on a Honda minivan years ago. When it came time to replace them, I was presented with the option of new run flats for $800+, or traditional tires for less than half that. If the replacement cost of these tires is exorbitant, they will fail in the marketplace.
- chrismeller 7y agoThat’s hardly the only factor, though. How long do they last? Is getting a flat something that happens to you on a regular basis? What about savings from canceling your AAA membership and the loss of work time waiting on them? Are they as uncomfortable as they used to be? In 20 years of driving I can count on one hand how many times I’ve gotten a flat of any kind and none of them were bad enough that I had to immediately pull over. It’s also not like I only drive 5 miles a day, I easily beat the national average in regular usage and have taken multiple 2+ month long road trips covering 10k miles at a time. For me the value just isn’t there, but I suppose there are people who have had dozens of flats? I mean they have to exist for a reason, right?
- nimbius 7y agospeaking as an automotive mechanic for a chain of small midwest shops, this technology has existed for almost a century. What the article should specify is that Michelin intends to offer a motor vehicle version of this technology, which I think is probably going to be disaster for a few reasons: 1. weight. anything thats supposed to handle interstate speeds and offer comfort is going to be heavy as it will need to be durable. id be surprised if these tweels show up with the longevity of a standard all-weather radial. Id be even more surprised if drivers dont pull into the service station for more esoteric repairs like CV joints, brakes or idler/pitman assembly changeouts as this is common in vehicles that upgrade to more rugged tires. 2. partial failure. Most people dont want to spend money on a new tire if its 40% worn and a hole or cut is in the tread. Typically a bubblegum type or kevlar patch is applied for $30 to the tire, which keeps it rolling intil its worn enough to replace. How do you repair a tweel thats received curb strike damage or a sharp object? For those who have pointed out, yes, fork trucks and fork lifts commonly use solid tires, but thats largely due to how they work. Many forklifts can hoist in excess of 40 tons, so it makes sense to have a tire that doesnt readily compress. Its why big trucks have to have more tubeless tires for larger loads. The plastic or rubber tires on forklifts also have a quick re-tread option. The tires often dont even need to be removed, as they have more treads that can be created by pulling out zip-tie like spacers in the worn tread. other models use a hot-iron type re-treader. that being said, forklift tires are very heavy and so are the wheels, and neither last very long at full-speed.
- maxerickson 7y agoIf they are deploying it on some subset of 1 small car in 5 years, it probably won't be anything worse than a boondoggle.
- tempguy9999 7y ago> The [forklift] tires often dont even need to be removed, as they have more treads that can be created by pulling out zip-tie like spacers in the worn tread Wow, that's clever. But it does make me ask, tread is AFAUI for dealing with water on the ground, and I guess also when the vehicle's going at speed. Forklifts AFAIK operate mainly indoors, and even then they never get up to any speed that I've ever seen, so why treads at all?
- kazinator 7y ago> Michelin's new Unique Puncture-Proof Tire System (Uptis) does away with one of the defining aspects of tires as we've known them for more than 100 years: the air inside. Absolute nonsense. Airless tires have been around for about that long also. I've seen airless motorcycle tires from circa 1920 in a museum: they looked a lot like that picture of the new one: basic hub shapes with lateral voids in them. They are in use currently; I've seen them from time to time over the years on various earth-moving equipment around town. The idea of airless tires for general motorist use gets periodically trotted out by snake oil salesmen as some new revolutionary thing that will take over the industry. Pneumatic tires have superior performance because the entire volume of air around the wheel provides the suspension and shock absorption, rather than just the compression of a small amount of material around the contact patch.
- exabrial 7y agoCurious if this adds to the unsprung weight of the suspension component or not
- masonic 7y agoThe French card game Mille Bornes used the name "Puncture-Proof" (English version) for its safety card to make one invulnerable to flat tires.