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What newbie will start with Python 2.7 at this point in time? Most books and tutorials are updated for Python 3. The default Python 2.7 interpreter from macOS i

What newbie will start with Python 2.7 at this point in time? Most books and tutorials are updated for Python 3. The default Python 2.7 interpreter from macOS is useless for newbies, it does more harm than good by confusing them.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Apple could solve this problem by including python3 with macOS...
- Twisell 7y ago
  They sure could, but is it worthy to maintain an alternative package and deployment system for which you have no use yourself? Will employees be careful and committed to something useless for their jobs? They previously deprecated Java runtime for similar reasons. And I can’t really blame them, roadmap is crystal clear now, they prefer to assign ressources to develop Swift/Swift UI and improve tooling for native code development.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    I agree overall, but I do think it's a little sad that you can no longer open a Terminal and start writing Python. I think this legitimately matters in terms of increasing overall tech and programming literacy. Mind, there's still a command line and shell built-in, which I consider far more important.
    - unilynx 7y ago
      Its not like the rest of the terminal is friendly to newbies. An online ‘jsfiddle’ like environment suitable for newbies (with a bit of inline syntax hints without turning into a full IDE) would be more useful to get people to start playing with programming
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        Separately from including python, I've always thought it would be nice if TextEdit had some built-in syntax highlighting, that activated automatically for the right file extensions. I'm generally against bloating simple apps, but you'd never see this unless you opened a .py file (or .sh, .rb, etc), and if you open a .py file, you probably want syntax highlighting.
    - jodrellblank 7y ago
      You can open https://repl.it/languages/python3 https://repl.it/languages/python3 and start writing Python.
      - Godel_unicode 7y ago
        with open("~/Documents/important.csv", "r") as f: f.read() No? Oh well, I guess programming is hard, IT was right. Ok, back to excel...
        amasad 7y ago
        You can just drag and drop the file on repl.it and it'll just work :)
        Godel_unicode 7y ago
        Gee, thanks. My point was about discoverability and being able to Google for "read csv with Python", not whether experienced programmers can hack things together.
        amasad 7y ago
        Majority of our users are hobbyists and novices
- IshKebab 7y ago
  Presumably someone said that about python 2 back in the day and that turned out to be a pretty bad decision.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    Isn't this the same as saying, we should never include any software, lest it become outdated someday?
- c256 7y ago
  Apple could solve this problems by including homebrew with macOS...
kccqzy 7y ago
The young, bored but smart kid in an elementary or middle school tinkering with her computer and finding something to do. She doesn't need a book or a tutorial to tell her the "right" way. She experiments, only guided by her curiosity.
- wyclif 7y ago
  The point is that Python 2.7x is being EOL'd now. The Python that person will likely encounter in the very near future will be Python3.
  - pieter_mj 7y ago
    per the link, macOS won't include any scripting languages by default in the future. So the bored user will be less likely to stumble upon an intresting programming language on their macs.
    - wyclif 7y ago
      I don't know if that follows. I think it's likely that Apple will include a new installer upon setup that is essentially a one step 'click to install XCode Developer Tools and the following languages:' then has a list of options including Bash, Python, Ruby, Perl, &c. But all that is conjecture because we don't know what they're going to do yet. You'd have to be very bored and unmotivated to not install a programming language if you had even the slightest motivation to program (IOW, not a normie consumer). I understand what you're saying, but I just don't see how this would be a huge barrier to entry.
- em500 7y ago
  There still Swift Playground, Safari JS console, not to mention old fashioned zsh/bash/ksh to tinker with. The part where the removal of the default macOS Python/Ruby/perl (which don't even have autocompletion) kills her curiosity seems far fetched.
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

Apple could solve this problem by including python3 with macOS...

Twisell 7y ago
They sure could, but is it worthy to maintain an alternative package and deployment system for which you have no use yourself? Will employees be careful and committed to something useless for their jobs? They previously deprecated Java runtime for similar reasons. And I can’t really blame them, roadmap is crystal clear now, they prefer to assign ressources to develop Swift/Swift UI and improve tooling for native code development.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I agree overall, but I do think it's a little sad that you can no longer open a Terminal and start writing Python. I think this legitimately matters in terms of increasing overall tech and programming literacy. Mind, there's still a command line and shell built-in, which I consider far more important.
  - unilynx 7y ago
    Its not like the rest of the terminal is friendly to newbies. An online ‘jsfiddle’ like environment suitable for newbies (with a bit of inline syntax hints without turning into a full IDE) would be more useful to get people to start playing with programming
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      Separately from including python, I've always thought it would be nice if TextEdit had some built-in syntax highlighting, that activated automatically for the right file extensions. I'm generally against bloating simple apps, but you'd never see this unless you opened a .py file (or .sh, .rb, etc), and if you open a .py file, you probably want syntax highlighting.
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    You can open https://repl.it/languages/python3 https://repl.it/languages/python3 and start writing Python.
    - Godel_unicode 7y ago
      with open("~/Documents/important.csv", "r") as f: f.read() No? Oh well, I guess programming is hard, IT was right. Ok, back to excel...
      - amasad 7y ago
        You can just drag and drop the file on repl.it and it'll just work :)
        Godel_unicode 7y ago
        Gee, thanks. My point was about discoverability and being able to Google for "read csv with Python", not whether experienced programmers can hack things together.
        amasad 7y ago
        Majority of our users are hobbyists and novices
IshKebab 7y ago
Presumably someone said that about python 2 back in the day and that turned out to be a pretty bad decision.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  Isn't this the same as saying, we should never include any software, lest it become outdated someday?
c256 7y ago
Apple could solve this problems by including homebrew with macOS...

kccqzy 7y ago

The young, bored but smart kid in an elementary or middle school tinkering with her computer and finding something to do. She doesn't need a book or a tutorial to tell her the "right" way. She experiments, only guided by her curiosity.

wyclif 7y ago
The point is that Python 2.7x is being EOL'd now. The Python that person will likely encounter in the very near future will be Python3.
- pieter_mj 7y ago
  per the link, macOS won't include any scripting languages by default in the future. So the bored user will be less likely to stumble upon an intresting programming language on their macs.
  - wyclif 7y ago
    I don't know if that follows. I think it's likely that Apple will include a new installer upon setup that is essentially a one step 'click to install XCode Developer Tools and the following languages:' then has a list of options including Bash, Python, Ruby, Perl, &c. But all that is conjecture because we don't know what they're going to do yet. You'd have to be very bored and unmotivated to not install a programming language if you had even the slightest motivation to program (IOW, not a normie consumer). I understand what you're saying, but I just don't see how this would be a huge barrier to entry.
em500 7y ago
There still Swift Playground, Safari JS console, not to mention old fashioned zsh/bash/ksh to tinker with. The part where the removal of the default macOS Python/Ruby/perl (which don't even have autocompletion) kills her curiosity seems far fetched.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago