9 ms·

Carnival Cruise Lines Hit with $20M Penalty for Environmental Crimes

175 points by jazzdev 7y ago

benatkin 7y ago
It looks like the writer used the first name where the last name is more appropriate. He's introduced as "Carnival CEO Arnold Donald", and at the next mention, it's "'I sincerely regret these mistakes. I do take responsibility for the problems we had,' Arnold told the judge."
xvector 7y ago
> "The environment needs to be a core value, and I hope and pray it becomes your daily anthem." Strong words from the judge on a fine that's less than 1% of the company's annual profits and about 0.1% of the company's annual revenue. These fines need to be a percentage of revenue (with a large floor). Not some random number that's a drop in the bucket for most corporations committing these crimes in the first place. As it stands, these fines are (in many instances) less expensive than correcting the issue that caused the fines in the first place.
- gbrown 7y ago
  Also, a corporate structure shouldn't shield you from criminal prosecution. The company pled guilty to multiple felonies... why aren't the executives facing criminal action, given that event the judge thinks they're not taking their responsibilities seriously?
- ErnestedCode 7y ago
  They should be required to clean the ocean of 100x the amount of waste that was dumped in addition to a $200M fine.
- nikofeyn 7y ago
  i feel these "fines" should scale both with the companay's revenue and how much they saved in performing the violation. so at a minimum, the fines should be at least as much as they saved and then increased even more in line with severity of the violation and revenue. edit: i see your edit now, which is what i am saying, but i'll leave it.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  > These fines need to be a percentage of revenue (with a large floor). Not some random number that's a drop in the bucket for most corporations committing these crimes in the first place. As it stands, these fines are (in many instances) less expensive than correcting the issue that caused the fines in the first place. Rather than fines, it is more effective to withdraw operating licenses (temporarily) and ask for corrective actions to be taken before operations resume.
  - atourgates 7y ago
    The article mentioned that the judge threatened to stop Carnival from docking in US ports. That seems like it would have been pretty effective at getting companies to pay attention.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Shutting them out of the US wouldn't change much. It would stop their Alaska cruises, but everything else is mostly non-US countries. It is somewhat common to have fly to some non-US country to get on your cruise already. Those who drive to Texas or Florida to get one will be harmed, but for everyone else they are already flying so where they fly to is just a detail. The real losses are to the US cities (in Florida, Texas, California, and Puerto Rico) that lose the tourism trade. Now if other countries like Jamaica get on board things would change fast - but here is a case of each country acting alone loses, only by acting with others do they win. (and there is reward for cheating: if everyone else enforces this and you say you will but don't you get the tourism trade). Of course if Carnival's customers start caring that will drive changes.
      - cwkoss 7y ago
        Carnival is a horrible unethical company. Our nation would be lucky to be rid of them.
      - Kluny 7y ago
        There are plenty of other cruise lines. If one is thrown out, others can increase their business in the same area. There's no loss to any of those cities.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  And thus why the GDPR has such big scary possible maximum fines.
- lalos 7y ago
  The fine should be 10x the actual cost to properly dispose it, it might be a better "deal" to just get the fine than to properly do the job.
- dmix 7y ago
  Just like how all the massive big pharma fines which consistently continue to happen every year will changes things? (this list only goes until 2013). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical...
- kingnothing 7y ago
  A $20M fine on $18B in revenue is a penalty of 0.001%. The equivalent fine for the average US household is $62.70, or a meal with a couple of drinks at an average restaurant. It won't even be noticed.
will_brown 7y ago
Exhaustive list of cruise ship environmental violations and penalties (although I believe there must be another list of penalties for damages to reefs by cruise lines, because I recall multiple fines in the past for $10’s of millions, a this list is noticeably absent high dollar penalties/fines): http://www.cruisejunkie.com/envirofines.html http://www.cruisejunkie.com/envirofines.html
legohead 7y ago
Should add "Repeated" to the title. They had already gotten in trouble in the past for dumping in the ocean, and continued to do it...
- bluetidepro 7y ago
  Sadly that's what happens when the "penalty" is a laughable fine in their big picture.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Yes, but surely a repeated offense demonstrates criminal responsibility (or negligence at least) on behalf of the C-suite ... which they could counter by demonstrating exactly what they had personally done to ensure preventative changes were in place (like inspected waste in person; checked training had been carried out, in person; made sure informational posters were in place onboard vessels, in person).
  - justaguyhere 7y ago
    Don't judges give heavy punishment for third strike, to individuals? Why isn't this applicable to companies (or is it)? In the case of environmental crimes like this, the every time the fine should be 10X the previous one, considering our planet is already fucked with climate change.
    - craftyguy 7y ago
      >Why isn't this applicable to companies (or is it)? Because companies != people, except in the cases where it is convenient for politicians.
- paxys 7y ago
  And they will do it again, as long as they can keep getting away with it with token fines.
Chardok 7y ago
"Miami-based Carnival pleaded guilty Monday to six probation violations, including the dumping of plastic mixed with food waste in Bahamian waters. The company also admitted sending teams to visit ships before the inspections to fix any environmental compliance violations, falsifying training records and contacting the U.S. Coast Guard to try to redefine what would be a "major non-conformity" of their environmental compliance plan." So not only did they knowingly dump plastic waste into the ocean, but they also actively tried to cover it up, implying they were fully aware of being guilty. And they get a paltry fine with no one going to jail for this criminal charge? At this point the judge is just as guilty for allowing this behavior to continue.
- jimrandomh 7y ago
  No one goes to jail because we're talking about littering. It's just not a big enough deal. Given the severity of the underlying crime, a $20M fine is massive.
  - Eric_WVGG 7y ago
    Covering up environmental compliance violations and falsifying training records is a much bigger deal than littering. This is more akin the Volkswagen emissions scandal. Elizabeth Warren's proposal to prosecute CEOs for corporate misconduct would be put to good use here. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/3/18294308/elizabeth-warren-op-ed-wells-fargo-equifax https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/3/18294308/el...
    - rayiner 7y ago
      The falsifying seems to be isolated incidents on two cruise ships. It is relegated to a third bullet among “other conduct” in the DOJ press release: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-and-its-parent-company-plead-guilty-environmental-probation-violations https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-and-its....
      - mikeash 7y ago
wffurr 7y ago
I am shocked by none of this after reading The Outlaw Sea. Regulation of ocean-going entities like Carnival is a fig leaf, a pretense at civilization and the rule of law. : https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Outlaw_Sea.html?id=zR7tSAAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Outlaw_Sea.html?id=...
mabbo 7y ago
I'm reminded of when Walmart opened in a town near where I grew up. There was some local law they were in violation of and hadn't yet gotten around to fixing (whatever it was, I forget). They were told "We will fine you X dollars per day that you are open and in violation". They said "Sounds good. Send us the bill each month and we'll pay it." They were just making so much money that it was more profitable to pay the fines and leave the problem as is than it was to fix the problem.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  Sounds similar to a story I was told about Disneyland and how they just paid the fines to the city every time they ran fireworks rather than trying to get permits. No idea how accurate it is but it seems reasonable enough.
gesman 7y ago
$20m penalty is like "you may go but please don't do that". Same effect (which is none).
Paul-ish 7y ago
> At the time, Princess told NPR that it chalked up the violations to "the inexcusable actions of our employees." As long as they blame employees and not process, is there any reason to believe things will change?
- mac01021 7y ago
  If they fire the employee who dumps the trash every time trash is dumped, then at some point they'll either have to not have the employees dump the trash or else no be able to find anyone who wants to work for them. But it seems like that's not going to happen either.
perfunctory 7y ago
Every time there is a discussion about climate change or environment in general on HN, any suggestion to tackle the problem by reducing consumption and industrial production is rejected on the basis that it will effect the quality of life. If cruise trip is your idea of quality of life - I don’t know what to say.
- diveanon 7y ago
  I agree completely. Cruise ship tourism is disgusting. Bring your culture with you to insulate yourself from anything that might make you uncomfortable and pollute at an absurd scale the entire time.
cwkoss 7y ago
Is it criminal to incentivize vandalism in international waters? If not, I'd throw a some dollars at a gofundme to have every Carnival Cruise drone-sprayed with rotting fish guts until they go out of business.
- diveanon 7y ago
  I prefer Bill Burr's approach of just sinking them.
kadendogthing 7y ago
This is one of those industries where we're just externalizing costs. Cruises as a whole definitely need to be more expensive to reflect the environment costs associated with not just the boats, but the wanton consumption that happens on these trips -- at sea and and at their destinations.
diveanon 7y ago
Meanwhile Carnival will not hire you to work on a ship if you have tattoos because they are afraid of the image it will portray. Cruise lines and the people that support them with their wallets are an environmental scourge that perpetuate the worste aspects of tourism.

175 points by jazzdev 7y ago

It looks like the writer used the first name where the last name is more appropriate. He's introduced as "Carnival CEO Arnold Donald", and at the next mention, it's "'I sincerely regret these mistakes. I do take responsibility for the problems we had,' Arnold told the judge."

xvector 7y ago

> "The environment needs to be a core value, and I hope and pray it becomes your daily anthem." Strong words from the judge on a fine that's less than 1% of the company's annual profits and about 0.1% of the company's annual revenue. These fines need to be a percentage of revenue (with a large floor). Not some random number that's a drop in the bucket for most corporations committing these crimes in the first place. As it stands, these fines are (in many instances) less expensive than correcting the issue that caused the fines in the first place.

gbrown 7y ago
Also, a corporate structure shouldn't shield you from criminal prosecution. The company pled guilty to multiple felonies... why aren't the executives facing criminal action, given that event the judge thinks they're not taking their responsibilities seriously?
ErnestedCode 7y ago
They should be required to clean the ocean of 100x the amount of waste that was dumped in addition to a $200M fine.
nikofeyn 7y ago
i feel these "fines" should scale both with the companay's revenue and how much they saved in performing the violation. so at a minimum, the fines should be at least as much as they saved and then increased even more in line with severity of the violation and revenue. edit: i see your edit now, which is what i am saying, but i'll leave it.
ekianjo 7y ago
> These fines need to be a percentage of revenue (with a large floor). Not some random number that's a drop in the bucket for most corporations committing these crimes in the first place. As it stands, these fines are (in many instances) less expensive than correcting the issue that caused the fines in the first place. Rather than fines, it is more effective to withdraw operating licenses (temporarily) and ask for corrective actions to be taken before operations resume.
- atourgates 7y ago
  The article mentioned that the judge threatened to stop Carnival from docking in US ports. That seems like it would have been pretty effective at getting companies to pay attention.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Shutting them out of the US wouldn't change much. It would stop their Alaska cruises, but everything else is mostly non-US countries. It is somewhat common to have fly to some non-US country to get on your cruise already. Those who drive to Texas or Florida to get one will be harmed, but for everyone else they are already flying so where they fly to is just a detail. The real losses are to the US cities (in Florida, Texas, California, and Puerto Rico) that lose the tourism trade. Now if other countries like Jamaica get on board things would change fast - but here is a case of each country acting alone loses, only by acting with others do they win. (and there is reward for cheating: if everyone else enforces this and you say you will but don't you get the tourism trade). Of course if Carnival's customers start caring that will drive changes.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      Carnival is a horrible unethical company. Our nation would be lucky to be rid of them.
    - Kluny 7y ago
      There are plenty of other cruise lines. If one is thrown out, others can increase their business in the same area. There's no loss to any of those cities.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
And thus why the GDPR has such big scary possible maximum fines.
lalos 7y ago
The fine should be 10x the actual cost to properly dispose it, it might be a better "deal" to just get the fine than to properly do the job.
dmix 7y ago
Just like how all the massive big pharma fines which consistently continue to happen every year will changes things? (this list only goes until 2013). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical...
kingnothing 7y ago
A $20M fine on $18B in revenue is a penalty of 0.001%. The equivalent fine for the average US household is $62.70, or a meal with a couple of drinks at an average restaurant. It won't even be noticed.

will_brown 7y ago

Exhaustive list of cruise ship environmental violations and penalties (although I believe there must be another list of penalties for damages to reefs by cruise lines, because I recall multiple fines in the past for $10’s of millions, a this list is noticeably absent high dollar penalties/fines): http://www.cruisejunkie.com/envirofines.html http://www.cruisejunkie.com/envirofines.html

legohead 7y ago

Should add "Repeated" to the title. They had already gotten in trouble in the past for dumping in the ocean, and continued to do it...

bluetidepro 7y ago
Sadly that's what happens when the "penalty" is a laughable fine in their big picture.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Yes, but surely a repeated offense demonstrates criminal responsibility (or negligence at least) on behalf of the C-suite ... which they could counter by demonstrating exactly what they had personally done to ensure preventative changes were in place (like inspected waste in person; checked training had been carried out, in person; made sure informational posters were in place onboard vessels, in person).
- justaguyhere 7y ago
  Don't judges give heavy punishment for third strike, to individuals? Why isn't this applicable to companies (or is it)? In the case of environmental crimes like this, the every time the fine should be 10X the previous one, considering our planet is already fucked with climate change.
  - craftyguy 7y ago
    >Why isn't this applicable to companies (or is it)? Because companies != people, except in the cases where it is convenient for politicians.
paxys 7y ago
And they will do it again, as long as they can keep getting away with it with token fines.

Chardok 7y ago

"Miami-based Carnival pleaded guilty Monday to six probation violations, including the dumping of plastic mixed with food waste in Bahamian waters. The company also admitted sending teams to visit ships before the inspections to fix any environmental compliance violations, falsifying training records and contacting the U.S. Coast Guard to try to redefine what would be a "major non-conformity" of their environmental compliance plan." So not only did they knowingly dump plastic waste into the ocean, but they also actively tried to cover it up, implying they were fully aware of being guilty. And they get a paltry fine with no one going to jail for this criminal charge? At this point the judge is just as guilty for allowing this behavior to continue.

jimrandomh 7y ago
No one goes to jail because we're talking about littering. It's just not a big enough deal. Given the severity of the underlying crime, a $20M fine is massive.
- Eric_WVGG 7y ago
  Covering up environmental compliance violations and falsifying training records is a much bigger deal than littering. This is more akin the Volkswagen emissions scandal. Elizabeth Warren's proposal to prosecute CEOs for corporate misconduct would be put to good use here. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/3/18294308/elizabeth-warren-op-ed-wells-fargo-equifax https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/3/18294308/el...
  - rayiner 7y ago
    The falsifying seems to be isolated incidents on two cruise ships. It is relegated to a third bullet among “other conduct” in the DOJ press release: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-and-its-parent-company-plead-guilty-environmental-probation-violations https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-and-its....
    - mikeash 7y ago

wffurr 7y ago

I am shocked by none of this after reading The Outlaw Sea. Regulation of ocean-going entities like Carnival is a fig leaf, a pretense at civilization and the rule of law. : https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Outlaw_Sea.html?id=zR7tSAAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Outlaw_Sea.html?id=...

mabbo 7y ago

I'm reminded of when Walmart opened in a town near where I grew up. There was some local law they were in violation of and hadn't yet gotten around to fixing (whatever it was, I forget). They were told "We will fine you X dollars per day that you are open and in violation". They said "Sounds good. Send us the bill each month and we'll pay it." They were just making so much money that it was more profitable to pay the fines and leave the problem as is than it was to fix the problem.

dawnerd 7y ago
Sounds similar to a story I was told about Disneyland and how they just paid the fines to the city every time they ran fireworks rather than trying to get permits. No idea how accurate it is but it seems reasonable enough.

gesman 7y ago

$20m penalty is like "you may go but please don't do that". Same effect (which is none).

Paul-ish 7y ago

> At the time, Princess told NPR that it chalked up the violations to "the inexcusable actions of our employees." As long as they blame employees and not process, is there any reason to believe things will change?

mac01021 7y ago
If they fire the employee who dumps the trash every time trash is dumped, then at some point they'll either have to not have the employees dump the trash or else no be able to find anyone who wants to work for them. But it seems like that's not going to happen either.

perfunctory 7y ago

Every time there is a discussion about climate change or environment in general on HN, any suggestion to tackle the problem by reducing consumption and industrial production is rejected on the basis that it will effect the quality of life. If cruise trip is your idea of quality of life - I don’t know what to say.

diveanon 7y ago
I agree completely. Cruise ship tourism is disgusting. Bring your culture with you to insulate yourself from anything that might make you uncomfortable and pollute at an absurd scale the entire time.

cwkoss 7y ago

Is it criminal to incentivize vandalism in international waters? If not, I'd throw a some dollars at a gofundme to have every Carnival Cruise drone-sprayed with rotting fish guts until they go out of business.

diveanon 7y ago
I prefer Bill Burr's approach of just sinking them.

kadendogthing 7y ago

This is one of those industries where we're just externalizing costs. Cruises as a whole definitely need to be more expensive to reflect the environment costs associated with not just the boats, but the wanton consumption that happens on these trips -- at sea and and at their destinations.

diveanon 7y ago

Meanwhile Carnival will not hire you to work on a ship if you have tattoos because they are afraid of the image it will portray. Cruise lines and the people that support them with their wallets are an environmental scourge that perpetuate the worste aspects of tourism.