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I’ve done multi-year stints of both, and it’s highly contextual. For ICs I get the quiet and focus is a net win (assuming proper self-motivation and no socia

I’ve done multi-year stints of both, and it’s highly contextual. For ICs I get the quiet and focus is a net win (assuming proper self-motivation and no social isolation issues). However for high-level or cross-functional collaboration there is no online tool that approaches the bandwidth of two people in a room with a whiteboard. The energy in person, serendipity and the ideas that come from prolonged close collaboration (especially in a startup) is hard to quantify but it’s real. It’s not optimal for everyone all the time, but then neither is full remote.

closeparen 7y ago
I think this is more or less the consensus opinion among managers, which is why we mostly have office jobs that support some WFH rather than fully in office or fully remote.
- geekbird 7y ago
  IMO, that's because managers favor butts-in-seats and the idea that they can "see you working". IME the only people who actually like open plan offices are managers, extroverts, and flakes, most of whom irritate non-managers, introverts, and non-flakes.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    The managers I’m referring to don’t need to see you working. They want you to see you collaborating and socializing with the team in person, but are fine with you doing your actual coding at home and rarely if ever touching your desk. The office is open plan but usually pretty empty, as everyone is either in conference rooms or at home.
  - oblio 7y ago
    1. I'm an extrovert and I don't like open plan offices. I'm not a manager and I'm probably not a flake, I'd say :p 2. Your tone is super condescending, regarding the extrovert - introvert bit.
thebigspacefuck 7y ago
It seems like there isn't a great digital replacement for a whiteboard yet. Maybe a tablet and stylus, but I haven't used a digital whiteboard enough to justify buying or setting one up. Incorporating the stylus/tablet into laptops isn't a new idea, but I've never owned a work laptop with that feature.
- nvrspyx 7y ago
  There are, but they’re expensive. There’s Google’s Jamboard and Microsoft’s Studio Hub as a couple of examples. You could also go the iPad and Apple Pencil route and just use similar apps, or the apps for those products (i.e. Microsoft Whiteboard app), but that’s still fairly expensive if that’s all they’re used for.
- ilaksh 7y ago
  There are lots of inexpensive online whiteboard programs that work fine. You just need to get used to typing and using the drawing tools, or buy a drawing tablet if that's really important to you. You can get ok graphics tablets for $25.
- mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
  A real whiteboard with video feed? Or do you mean for collaboration?
pdimitar 7y ago
The energy in a person bears zero relevance to how good their idea is, though. I found remote team code reviews to be much more objective. That way most people aren't worried they'll shame someone in person and they give better and more useful feedback. The energy you speak of, while very real, is not related to the quality of the work that will follow.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  You're talking about two different things. I work almost entirely non-remote. If all I did was write code, I could do so remote. I collaborate with people in 3 continents, probably 10 timezones, maybe more, many of whom I've never met in person, when it comes to code. But design is a different beast. Collaborative design of complex systems has a few stages. There's a rapid prototyping stage where 3 people in a room bouncing ideas off of each other and scribbling is better than anything else I've done. Then you circle back with a document that formalizes things (like an RFC). The second part can be done with a distributed group. But the first part is better when people are close to each other. You see this even in distributed groups like OSS projects. They have conferences and work sprints where the maintainers can be colocated for a bit and brainstorm about things in person.
  - pdimitar 7y ago
    Sure, but you are not actually contradicting me as far as I can see. I too collaborate with colleagues in different time zones but design and tons of brain-storming is not the main focus of our work. When we need to do that, we do long video calls with shared diagrams -- or we just scribble with the mouse. Works quite alright 99% of the time. I agree that the rapid initial stages of a project are best done in person but failing that, there are replacements, and they are not as bad as many in this mega-thread claim.
    - joshuamorton 7y ago
      My point is that that rapid prototyping stage is really important, has long lasting consequences, and so optimizing for it is a reasonable decision. And that's just one reason to disfavor a remote-only environment.
ilaksh 7y ago
A videochat and whiteboard application would at least approach that bandwidth. If necessary get drawing tablets also.
mindfulmonkey 7y ago
> there is no online tool that approaches the bandwidth of two people in a room with a whiteboard. VR will change that at some point. Even in today's infancy, there are some VR apps that give you that sense of presence with all the other tools needed and then some (whiteboards, screen-sharing, projecting your desktop on a huge screen, etc...)

closeparen 7y ago

I think this is more or less the consensus opinion among managers, which is why we mostly have office jobs that support some WFH rather than fully in office or fully remote.

geekbird 7y ago
IMO, that's because managers favor butts-in-seats and the idea that they can "see you working". IME the only people who actually like open plan offices are managers, extroverts, and flakes, most of whom irritate non-managers, introverts, and non-flakes.
- closeparen 7y ago
  The managers I’m referring to don’t need to see you working. They want you to see you collaborating and socializing with the team in person, but are fine with you doing your actual coding at home and rarely if ever touching your desk. The office is open plan but usually pretty empty, as everyone is either in conference rooms or at home.
- oblio 7y ago
  1. I'm an extrovert and I don't like open plan offices. I'm not a manager and I'm probably not a flake, I'd say :p 2. Your tone is super condescending, regarding the extrovert - introvert bit.

thebigspacefuck 7y ago

It seems like there isn't a great digital replacement for a whiteboard yet. Maybe a tablet and stylus, but I haven't used a digital whiteboard enough to justify buying or setting one up. Incorporating the stylus/tablet into laptops isn't a new idea, but I've never owned a work laptop with that feature.

nvrspyx 7y ago
There are, but they’re expensive. There’s Google’s Jamboard and Microsoft’s Studio Hub as a couple of examples. You could also go the iPad and Apple Pencil route and just use similar apps, or the apps for those products (i.e. Microsoft Whiteboard app), but that’s still fairly expensive if that’s all they’re used for.
ilaksh 7y ago
There are lots of inexpensive online whiteboard programs that work fine. You just need to get used to typing and using the drawing tools, or buy a drawing tablet if that's really important to you. You can get ok graphics tablets for $25.
mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
A real whiteboard with video feed? Or do you mean for collaboration?

pdimitar 7y ago

The energy in a person bears zero relevance to how good their idea is, though. I found remote team code reviews to be much more objective. That way most people aren't worried they'll shame someone in person and they give better and more useful feedback. The energy you speak of, while very real, is not related to the quality of the work that will follow.

joshuamorton 7y ago
You're talking about two different things. I work almost entirely non-remote. If all I did was write code, I could do so remote. I collaborate with people in 3 continents, probably 10 timezones, maybe more, many of whom I've never met in person, when it comes to code. But design is a different beast. Collaborative design of complex systems has a few stages. There's a rapid prototyping stage where 3 people in a room bouncing ideas off of each other and scribbling is better than anything else I've done. Then you circle back with a document that formalizes things (like an RFC). The second part can be done with a distributed group. But the first part is better when people are close to each other. You see this even in distributed groups like OSS projects. They have conferences and work sprints where the maintainers can be colocated for a bit and brainstorm about things in person.
- pdimitar 7y ago
  Sure, but you are not actually contradicting me as far as I can see. I too collaborate with colleagues in different time zones but design and tons of brain-storming is not the main focus of our work. When we need to do that, we do long video calls with shared diagrams -- or we just scribble with the mouse. Works quite alright 99% of the time. I agree that the rapid initial stages of a project are best done in person but failing that, there are replacements, and they are not as bad as many in this mega-thread claim.
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    My point is that that rapid prototyping stage is really important, has long lasting consequences, and so optimizing for it is a reasonable decision. And that's just one reason to disfavor a remote-only environment.

ilaksh 7y ago

A videochat and whiteboard application would at least approach that bandwidth. If necessary get drawing tablets also.

mindfulmonkey 7y ago

> there is no online tool that approaches the bandwidth of two people in a room with a whiteboard. VR will change that at some point. Even in today's infancy, there are some VR apps that give you that sense of presence with all the other tools needed and then some (whiteboards, screen-sharing, projecting your desktop on a huge screen, etc...)