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I'll try to answer the question from my perspective as the CEO of GitLab with 650 people in 50 countries and shared offices. First of all as an industry we hav

by sytse 7y ago

I'll try to answer the question from my perspective as the CEO of GitLab with 650 people in 50 countries and shared offices. First of all as an industry we haven't agreed on a term. Remote first or remote friendly are used by companies that do have a headquarter but are open to remote work like Stripe. Since remote can have a negative connotation some companies like Wordpress like distributed but that is also used by companies that have offices in multiple locations. At GitLab we prefer to use all remote https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/ https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/ The three biggest companies as far as I know are Wordpress, InVision, and GitLab. Wordpress and InVision both have around 1000 people while we're 45% smaller. I've heard that InVision has people work east coast hours but that doesn't show in their job listings. I think remote will become much more popular. It saves people commuting time and gives them more flexibility to care for family, go to the gym at a convenient time, travel more, and deal with sick children. For the company you are able to hire outside of competitive metro areas and you save money by that https://about.gitlab.com/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ https://about.gitlab.com/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ and on office costs. It is early days for remote and it is still viewed as a risk by potential investors. But with tools like Zoom and better tools for asynchronous collaboration like InVision and GitLab I think it will become popular rapidly. Because you have to adjust you communication https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/ https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/ I think new startups will be all remote while existing companies will find it much harder to change.

cddotdotslash 7y ago
One thing I've always been curious about is how you compensate remote employees that tend to move around a lot. Not necessarily full "digital nomads", but ones who say, have a mailing address in NYC or SF and spend > 50% of the year in Thailand or Europe. Is the location factor based exclusively on where the employee is paying taxes?
- t3rabytes 7y ago
  I’m remote and my company pays SF rates no matter where you live, though I know a lot of companies localize based on employee location. I’m guessing people that are splitting time between the US and Europe are probably having their entire salary/paychecks deposited into an account in one country or the other to make the tax situation more bearable at the end of the year.
- alexhutcheson 7y ago
  At GitLab they have pretty explicit and open policies about this: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/code-of-conduct/#relocation https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/code-of-...
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    Statements like “Please get approval at least a month before you move” always rub me entirely the wrong way. If I’m working remote it’s because I don’t want to be bound to a certain location, and whether or not I move is none of the companies’s business as long as I fulfill my duties.
    - 0xffff2 7y ago
      Although GitLab is especially egregious in that it pays different rates based on location, I'm not sure that it's practical from a legal perspective to say where you live is none of the companies business. If you're an employee (as opposed to a contractor), the company has certain legal obligations that may change depending on what state or country you call home.
    - ShakataGaNai 7y ago
      Or... if you're working remote it's because you like the peace and quiet of working in a private space ... and enjoy not having a 2 hour commute a day. There are more than one reason to do anything. Now I'm sure if you were interviewing at GitLab, you'd know about this policy in advance (because it's public) and could plan accordingly. Or ...hey... ask your manager to be if they'd have any problem with you being a digital nomad on the job. The policy basically says you only need approval... so you could ask.
boleary-gl 7y ago
GitLabber here with my own remote story relative to Sid's comment: > It saves people commuting time and gives them more flexibility to care for family, go to the gym at a convenient time, travel more, and deal with sick children. I have 4 young children at home. When I came back to GitLab after having my fourth I noted in our Thanks channel - 'Much easier transition coming back from paternity then I’ve ever had. Being at home & being able to step away to help is so much better than commuting into an office and not being able to help at all.'
bluetidepro 7y ago
> I've heard that InVision has people work east coast hours but that doesn't show in their job listings. As an early rising, that sounds so amazing. Living in the west coast, waking up early to work, and then having the whole rest of the day/daylight to enjoy when you're free at 2-3pm PST. Sounds too perfect. ha
itronitron 7y ago
Something I hope companies will consider is that a lot of people think that just by being in the office they are 'working' regardless of whether they are in fact getting anything done.
- radcon 7y ago
  > a lot of people think that just by being in the office they are 'working' regardless of whether they are in fact getting anything done. This is the part that annoys me the most. Managers pretend that Seat Time = Productivity when we all know that's not the case. I've watched people sit and talk for hours, then sit and browse the internet or play games for hours. We just had a group of people who were told to stop playing online Chess all day. Forcing people to come into the office full-time is just management's way of making their jobs easier and making themselves feel better. In my experience, it's a substitute for doing other things that they should be doing, like reviewing code that their team has committed that week, talking to their team about what they're working on, what they're planning to work on, what challenges they're facing, etc.
  - clarry 7y ago
    > We just had a group of people who were told to stop playing online Chess all day. What was their job? We're not talking about software developers here, are we?
    - radcon 7y ago
      Yup, devs.
    - eertami 7y ago
      >We're not talking about software developers here, are we? Why wouldn't it be...
  - txcwpalpha 7y ago
    Having people be 'working' (whether remote or in-office) for a set number of hours versus having people 'working' for a set output of productivity is a totally different conversation than remote vs in-office work. I've previously managed both remote and in-office teams, and I've definitely see all the things you're mentioning, but I also saw plenty of remote workers who saw their job as just "i will sit in front of my computer for X number of hours and as long as I have Slack open, I will call it work". Instead of "Seat Time", it's "Screen Open Time". There is nothing inherent about remote work that makes people more productive. Unfortunately, I often saw the opposite. And you're right that it makes management's job easier. It is management's job to make sure that their teams are producing work, and the unfortunate reality of a lot of workers is that unless they have the threat of someone walking by and seeing that they aren't being productive, they will end up wasting a lot of time. This doesn't mesh well with remote work. Not everyone is like that, but many are, and that's enough to ruin the remote work experience for everyone.
dao- 7y ago
> The three biggest companies as far as I know are Wordpress, InVision, and GitLab. Mozilla is another one, should be bigger than any of the above.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  AFAIK, Mozilla is not all-remote? They're hiring in Portland and specifically mention the office here.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    Plus they have a 54000 square foot office in Mountain View, that can't be all for occasional meetings.
  - dao- 7y ago
    We have both remote and office employees. We have offices around the world and it's very common for people who formally work there to mostly work from home anyway, because we're so remote-friendly that it doesn't matter. So in many ways we're more all-remote than anything else. The offices are optional, a nice bonus for when you feel like going there.
    - rootusrootus 7y ago
      Interesting, good to know. Or, well, it would be if I applied for one of the Mozilla jobs in Portland I periodically see. Just saw Staff Engineer pop up and it looks appealing, but even with 20 years of experience I don't know that I'd feel qualified applying.
chmars 7y ago
How do you deal with the various legal issues, mainly local labor laws, local tax obligations and local social security insurance systems?
- calcifer 7y ago
  That becomes the contractor's problem unless you live in the few places where Gitlab has a legal presence.
  - rb808 7y ago
    It looks like you can choose to be employee, https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/contracts/ https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/contracts/
    - calcifer 7y ago
      I don't see anything in there about a choice to be an employee. Which makes sense, you can't employ people in a country without being an employer.
      - sytse 7y ago
        Correct, see https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#contract-factor https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c... and specifically https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/blob/master/data/contract_factors.yml https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/blob/master/dat... for a list of countries in which we can hire you as an employee.
        literallycancer 7y ago
        Do you just use 0.411 for countries where you have no COL data?
- emilecantin 7y ago
  There are a few companies that exist to provide exactly that service, which kind of look like temp agencies. Gitlab uses CXC Global in my country, for example.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ekhornung 7y ago
how do you deal with some of the issues raised by other commenters? - taxes - employee motivation - regulatory differences between jurisdictions - healthcare - contractor v employee those seem to be the big 5 people have raised (outside of just not liking it)
kohanz 7y ago
That communication handbook is a fantastic resource. Thank you for sharing.
bamboozled 7y ago
To be honest you didn't really provide a good counter argument except some (IMO) relatively minor benefits and none of the negatives. Yes I read the culture page you linked too but some of the disadvantages you list are IMO _huge_. Especially this one: _Team members in different time zones may have to compromise on meeting times._ There is almost _nothing_ worse than this trap, especially if even a small majority of your team is in an inconvenient timezone, daily "standup" at 6:30am? ompany meeting at 1:30am here and there? You can keep it.
- sytse 7y ago
  For other people their reference we're talking about https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/#disadvantages https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/#disadva... We try to prevent meetings as much as possible in GitLab by working async but I agree it is a huge problem, especially for the people in APEC.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    The problem from my perspective is that there is just too many people working in the US and Europe, so APEC members always end up being the ones to accommodate (not necessarily of course, but it is most practical).
- shrimpx 7y ago
  You can't really avoid this in a company with global presence. Forget the whole "remote" thing. If your company has an office in SF and one in Tokyo, people in the two offices will have to sync sometimes. That's a fact.
- ShakataGaNai 7y ago
  That has nothing to do with being a remote company. It has everything to do with being a company that has people in more than one location. Most companies (especially in tech) beyond a few hundred employees have multiple locations - sometimes those locations are similar timezones (ex: SF & Seattle), but often they are very not the same. In my case, my company has offices in San Francisco and Eastern Europe. 10 hours apart. Meetings at 8am for me are 6pm for them. So basically everyone has to compromise somewhat. As long as you go into things with understanding that this is the case, it's not that bad - especially if there is flexibility. If you're working west coast USA to India (a common occurrence), it's 12.5 hours difference.
Raphmedia 7y ago
> For the company you are able to hire outside of competitive metro areas and you save money by that https://about.gitlab.com/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ https://about.gitlab.com/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ and on office costs. So, someone can change their mailing address to that of a friend living in a high income area and have a better pay? What about when moving, are employees' pays docked too? For example, I come from a low-income area and most of my family is poor. By working in tech., I'm able to provide a safety net for parents and close friends. My home address is in my hometown but I would spend time at my significant other's apartment during the week to be close to work. Why should my pay be less than that of a coworker that does the same exact same job as me simply because this is a remote company? What about someone that does a worst job or is less experienced? Unless that means that the only employees hired in high-pays area are senior and other employees are all junior or mid level and seen as cheaper labor, I don't see the reason... except as sour way to save company's operating cost. Does that also mean that you believe someone in this situation should never have the resources to move to a high income area? Someone from a high-income area could live in a shared rental, save a big cushion of money and then move to a lower income area for less stress while knowing they will be able to retire. Someone from a low paying area wouldn't be able to do that. Compensation should be based on output performance and the difficulties and complexity of the work being done.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  >>Compensation should be based on output performance and the difficulties and complexity of the work being done. That should be a factor for sure, but not the only factor. The price of something is not based on simply how valuable that thing is in and of itself. It is also based on the price of alternatives. This should be self-evident everywhere you look.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  >Compensation should be based on output performance and the difficulties and complexity of the work being done. The price of something (compensation) will trend towards however much the opportunity cost is (the second best option). If it doesn't, then (assuming no giant moat) another business will spend less on compensation, be able to sell their product/service for less, and end up with your customers.
dcolkitt 7y ago
> It saves people commuting time and gives them more flexibility to care for family, go to the gym at a convenient time, travel more, and deal with sick children. I'll add that it also makes it much easier for households with two incomes. If both partners are career professionals, then there's the ever-present challenge of finding a metro offering concurrent opportunities. Often times one partner will have to sacrifice career opportunities so that the other can relocate to take a better job. Unfortunately because of longstanding cultural norms, the side that sacrifices is usually the wife. So there's also the angle that a more remote-centric economy would help promote gender equality.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- lockstock 7y ago
  The part I'm passionate about is the ability to provide employment in areas that need jobs. It creates a real opportunity for struggling rural or non-metropolitan area communities to benefit as well.
john_cogs 7y ago
I joined GitLab in December. Prior to working at GitLab, I worked in New York City and commuted more than an hour in each direction every day. The change to working remotely has exceeded expectations. My relationships with my children improved significantly within weeks. I'm able to coach my children's sports teams and attend school events and other activities without any issue. I eat better. I exercise more. My garden looks better than ever. I was attracted to GitLab because of the all-remote structure and the transparency value. After being here for 6 months, I'm even more convinced that this structure is the future of work.
- hitekker 7y ago
  Were you encouraged to write a Glassdoor review on Gitlab, perchance?
  - john_cogs 7y ago
    No, I don't recall any encouragement to write a Glassdoor review and couldn't find one in Slack or email history.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
williamchia 7y ago
I've been at GitLab about 2 years. While I've worked remote and on teams with remote members, there is a huge difference when everyone is remote. I'd estimiate that I am 2x-3x more productive than any job I've had before because of the all-remote culuture. I get to work less and produce more outcomes. Documenting everything and having documentation from others is a major reason for this.
GL_HLS 7y ago
GitLab Team member since Feb 2019 here. I've worked remotely for the past 11 years now, but this is my first experience at an all-remote company. A few points--I've experienced managers who have both supported my working remote, acknowledging that the proper tools, organization and workstyle make it possible for anyone to be successful while working remotely, but I've also had managers (at my previous employer, who I'd call a "distributed" company) who maybe just 'tolerated' my being remote because of the results I was able to produce. I heard about how I might miss opportunities because of lack of face-time with execs, and sat through calls where I was the only one not in the room and the conference room speaker pod felt like it was miles away. In the end, collaborative tools and individuals who deliver results are going to be successful regardless of location, IMO. But, all-remote puts us all on a level playing field, so no one is missing out on opportunities for growth, advancement or development, because we’re all sitting in the same exact place. Then, it’s our skills, expertise and drive that set us apart, not our location. And, all-remote means the company is both investing in the proper workplace and collaboration tools to enable success, but also in the necessary training (asynchronous comms were a completely new concept to me: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#internal-communication https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#internal-co...) and documentation (i.e. GitLab’s handbook which documents EVERYTHING and is now 2960 pages long: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/tools-and-tips/#count-handbook-pages https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/tools-and-tips/#count-hand...) to enable work across time-zones and lifestyles. And, on a personal note, as a working mother, all-remote and async comms means I can start when I get my kids off to school and be finished and waiting for them when they get off the bus. And, when someone is sick and needs to stay home, I no longer feel like it’s a huge, stressful obstacle that I need to work around, or apologize for, or even, pretend as though it’s not happening (check out this entry from our handbook “Having pets, children, significant others, friends, and family visible during video chats is encouraged. If they are human, ask them to wave at your remote team member to say "Hi"”: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#video-calls https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#video-calls. Being able to focus on my family AND my career at the same time? That’s kind of priceless.
driverdan 7y ago
How do you compensate someone who travels full time? They could optimize their income by getting a mailbox in a location with maximum pay.
joostdevalk 7y ago
s/WordPress/Automattic/gi
PunchTornado 7y ago
do you still pay salaries based on location? if so, how do you know if a candidate lives in London (expensive) vs Sunderland (cheap as hell)?

by sytse 7y ago

cddotdotslash 7y ago

One thing I've always been curious about is how you compensate remote employees that tend to move around a lot. Not necessarily full "digital nomads", but ones who say, have a mailing address in NYC or SF and spend > 50% of the year in Thailand or Europe. Is the location factor based exclusively on where the employee is paying taxes?

t3rabytes 7y ago
I’m remote and my company pays SF rates no matter where you live, though I know a lot of companies localize based on employee location. I’m guessing people that are splitting time between the US and Europe are probably having their entire salary/paychecks deposited into an account in one country or the other to make the tax situation more bearable at the end of the year.
alexhutcheson 7y ago
At GitLab they have pretty explicit and open policies about this: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/code-of-conduct/#relocation https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/code-of-...
- Aeolun 7y ago
  Statements like “Please get approval at least a month before you move” always rub me entirely the wrong way. If I’m working remote it’s because I don’t want to be bound to a certain location, and whether or not I move is none of the companies’s business as long as I fulfill my duties.
  - 0xffff2 7y ago
    Although GitLab is especially egregious in that it pays different rates based on location, I'm not sure that it's practical from a legal perspective to say where you live is none of the companies business. If you're an employee (as opposed to a contractor), the company has certain legal obligations that may change depending on what state or country you call home.
  - ShakataGaNai 7y ago
    Or... if you're working remote it's because you like the peace and quiet of working in a private space ... and enjoy not having a 2 hour commute a day. There are more than one reason to do anything. Now I'm sure if you were interviewing at GitLab, you'd know about this policy in advance (because it's public) and could plan accordingly. Or ...hey... ask your manager to be if they'd have any problem with you being a digital nomad on the job. The policy basically says you only need approval... so you could ask.

boleary-gl 7y ago

GitLabber here with my own remote story relative to Sid's comment: > It saves people commuting time and gives them more flexibility to care for family, go to the gym at a convenient time, travel more, and deal with sick children. I have 4 young children at home. When I came back to GitLab after having my fourth I noted in our Thanks channel - 'Much easier transition coming back from paternity then I’ve ever had. Being at home & being able to step away to help is so much better than commuting into an office and not being able to help at all.'

bluetidepro 7y ago

> I've heard that InVision has people work east coast hours but that doesn't show in their job listings. As an early rising, that sounds so amazing. Living in the west coast, waking up early to work, and then having the whole rest of the day/daylight to enjoy when you're free at 2-3pm PST. Sounds too perfect. ha

itronitron 7y ago

Something I hope companies will consider is that a lot of people think that just by being in the office they are 'working' regardless of whether they are in fact getting anything done.

radcon 7y ago
> a lot of people think that just by being in the office they are 'working' regardless of whether they are in fact getting anything done. This is the part that annoys me the most. Managers pretend that Seat Time = Productivity when we all know that's not the case. I've watched people sit and talk for hours, then sit and browse the internet or play games for hours. We just had a group of people who were told to stop playing online Chess all day. Forcing people to come into the office full-time is just management's way of making their jobs easier and making themselves feel better. In my experience, it's a substitute for doing other things that they should be doing, like reviewing code that their team has committed that week, talking to their team about what they're working on, what they're planning to work on, what challenges they're facing, etc.
- clarry 7y ago
  > We just had a group of people who were told to stop playing online Chess all day. What was their job? We're not talking about software developers here, are we?
  - radcon 7y ago
    Yup, devs.
  - eertami 7y ago
    >We're not talking about software developers here, are we? Why wouldn't it be...
- txcwpalpha 7y ago
  Having people be 'working' (whether remote or in-office) for a set number of hours versus having people 'working' for a set output of productivity is a totally different conversation than remote vs in-office work. I've previously managed both remote and in-office teams, and I've definitely see all the things you're mentioning, but I also saw plenty of remote workers who saw their job as just "i will sit in front of my computer for X number of hours and as long as I have Slack open, I will call it work". Instead of "Seat Time", it's "Screen Open Time". There is nothing inherent about remote work that makes people more productive. Unfortunately, I often saw the opposite. And you're right that it makes management's job easier. It is management's job to make sure that their teams are producing work, and the unfortunate reality of a lot of workers is that unless they have the threat of someone walking by and seeing that they aren't being productive, they will end up wasting a lot of time. This doesn't mesh well with remote work. Not everyone is like that, but many are, and that's enough to ruin the remote work experience for everyone.

dao- 7y ago

> The three biggest companies as far as I know are Wordpress, InVision, and GitLab. Mozilla is another one, should be bigger than any of the above.

rootusrootus 7y ago
AFAIK, Mozilla is not all-remote? They're hiring in Portland and specifically mention the office here.
- icebraining 7y ago
  Plus they have a 54000 square foot office in Mountain View, that can't be all for occasional meetings.
- dao- 7y ago
  We have both remote and office employees. We have offices around the world and it's very common for people who formally work there to mostly work from home anyway, because we're so remote-friendly that it doesn't matter. So in many ways we're more all-remote than anything else. The offices are optional, a nice bonus for when you feel like going there.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    Interesting, good to know. Or, well, it would be if I applied for one of the Mozilla jobs in Portland I periodically see. Just saw Staff Engineer pop up and it looks appealing, but even with 20 years of experience I don't know that I'd feel qualified applying.

chmars 7y ago

How do you deal with the various legal issues, mainly local labor laws, local tax obligations and local social security insurance systems?

calcifer 7y ago
That becomes the contractor's problem unless you live in the few places where Gitlab has a legal presence.
- rb808 7y ago
  It looks like you can choose to be employee, https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/contracts/ https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/contracts/
  - calcifer 7y ago
    I don't see anything in there about a choice to be an employee. Which makes sense, you can't employ people in a country without being an employer.
    - sytse 7y ago
      Correct, see https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#contract-factor https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c... and specifically https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/blob/master/data/contract_factors.yml https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/blob/master/dat... for a list of countries in which we can hire you as an employee.
      - literallycancer 7y ago
        Do you just use 0.411 for countries where you have no COL data?
emilecantin 7y ago
There are a few companies that exist to provide exactly that service, which kind of look like temp agencies. Gitlab uses CXC Global in my country, for example.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ekhornung 7y ago

how do you deal with some of the issues raised by other commenters? - taxes - employee motivation - regulatory differences between jurisdictions - healthcare - contractor v employee those seem to be the big 5 people have raised (outside of just not liking it)

kohanz 7y ago

That communication handbook is a fantastic resource. Thank you for sharing.

bamboozled 7y ago

To be honest you didn't really provide a good counter argument except some (IMO) relatively minor benefits and none of the negatives. Yes I read the culture page you linked too but some of the disadvantages you list are IMO _huge_. Especially this one: _Team members in different time zones may have to compromise on meeting times._ There is almost _nothing_ worse than this trap, especially if even a small majority of your team is in an inconvenient timezone, daily "standup" at 6:30am? ompany meeting at 1:30am here and there? You can keep it.

sytse 7y ago
For other people their reference we're talking about https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/#disadvantages https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/#disadva... We try to prevent meetings as much as possible in GitLab by working async but I agree it is a huge problem, especially for the people in APEC.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  The problem from my perspective is that there is just too many people working in the US and Europe, so APEC members always end up being the ones to accommodate (not necessarily of course, but it is most practical).
shrimpx 7y ago
You can't really avoid this in a company with global presence. Forget the whole "remote" thing. If your company has an office in SF and one in Tokyo, people in the two offices will have to sync sometimes. That's a fact.
ShakataGaNai 7y ago
That has nothing to do with being a remote company. It has everything to do with being a company that has people in more than one location. Most companies (especially in tech) beyond a few hundred employees have multiple locations - sometimes those locations are similar timezones (ex: SF & Seattle), but often they are very not the same. In my case, my company has offices in San Francisco and Eastern Europe. 10 hours apart. Meetings at 8am for me are 6pm for them. So basically everyone has to compromise somewhat. As long as you go into things with understanding that this is the case, it's not that bad - especially if there is flexibility. If you're working west coast USA to India (a common occurrence), it's 12.5 hours difference.

Raphmedia 7y ago

> For the company you are able to hire outside of competitive metro areas and you save money by that https://about.gitlab.com/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ https://about.gitlab.com/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ and on office costs. So, someone can change their mailing address to that of a friend living in a high income area and have a better pay? What about when moving, are employees' pays docked too? For example, I come from a low-income area and most of my family is poor. By working in tech., I'm able to provide a safety net for parents and close friends. My home address is in my hometown but I would spend time at my significant other's apartment during the week to be close to work. Why should my pay be less than that of a coworker that does the same exact same job as me simply because this is a remote company? What about someone that does a worst job or is less experienced? Unless that means that the only employees hired in high-pays area are senior and other employees are all junior or mid level and seen as cheaper labor, I don't see the reason... except as sour way to save company's operating cost. Does that also mean that you believe someone in this situation should never have the resources to move to a high income area? Someone from a high-income area could live in a shared rental, save a big cushion of money and then move to a lower income area for less stress while knowing they will be able to retire. Someone from a low paying area wouldn't be able to do that. Compensation should be based on output performance and the difficulties and complexity of the work being done.

enraged_camel 7y ago
>>Compensation should be based on output performance and the difficulties and complexity of the work being done. That should be a factor for sure, but not the only factor. The price of something is not based on simply how valuable that thing is in and of itself. It is also based on the price of alternatives. This should be self-evident everywhere you look.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
>Compensation should be based on output performance and the difficulties and complexity of the work being done. The price of something (compensation) will trend towards however much the opportunity cost is (the second best option). If it doesn't, then (assuming no giant moat) another business will spend less on compensation, be able to sell their product/service for less, and end up with your customers.

dcolkitt 7y ago

> It saves people commuting time and gives them more flexibility to care for family, go to the gym at a convenient time, travel more, and deal with sick children. I'll add that it also makes it much easier for households with two incomes. If both partners are career professionals, then there's the ever-present challenge of finding a metro offering concurrent opportunities. Often times one partner will have to sacrifice career opportunities so that the other can relocate to take a better job. Unfortunately because of longstanding cultural norms, the side that sacrifices is usually the wife. So there's also the angle that a more remote-centric economy would help promote gender equality.

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lockstock 7y ago
The part I'm passionate about is the ability to provide employment in areas that need jobs. It creates a real opportunity for struggling rural or non-metropolitan area communities to benefit as well.

john_cogs 7y ago

I joined GitLab in December. Prior to working at GitLab, I worked in New York City and commuted more than an hour in each direction every day. The change to working remotely has exceeded expectations. My relationships with my children improved significantly within weeks. I'm able to coach my children's sports teams and attend school events and other activities without any issue. I eat better. I exercise more. My garden looks better than ever. I was attracted to GitLab because of the all-remote structure and the transparency value. After being here for 6 months, I'm even more convinced that this structure is the future of work.

hitekker 7y ago
Were you encouraged to write a Glassdoor review on Gitlab, perchance?
- john_cogs 7y ago
  No, I don't recall any encouragement to write a Glassdoor review and couldn't find one in Slack or email history.

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williamchia 7y ago

I've been at GitLab about 2 years. While I've worked remote and on teams with remote members, there is a huge difference when everyone is remote. I'd estimiate that I am 2x-3x more productive than any job I've had before because of the all-remote culuture. I get to work less and produce more outcomes. Documenting everything and having documentation from others is a major reason for this.

GL_HLS 7y ago

GitLab Team member since Feb 2019 here. I've worked remotely for the past 11 years now, but this is my first experience at an all-remote company. A few points--I've experienced managers who have both supported my working remote, acknowledging that the proper tools, organization and workstyle make it possible for anyone to be successful while working remotely, but I've also had managers (at my previous employer, who I'd call a "distributed" company) who maybe just 'tolerated' my being remote because of the results I was able to produce. I heard about how I might miss opportunities because of lack of face-time with execs, and sat through calls where I was the only one not in the room and the conference room speaker pod felt like it was miles away. In the end, collaborative tools and individuals who deliver results are going to be successful regardless of location, IMO. But, all-remote puts us all on a level playing field, so no one is missing out on opportunities for growth, advancement or development, because we’re all sitting in the same exact place. Then, it’s our skills, expertise and drive that set us apart, not our location. And, all-remote means the company is both investing in the proper workplace and collaboration tools to enable success, but also in the necessary training (asynchronous comms were a completely new concept to me: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#internal-communication https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#internal-co...) and documentation (i.e. GitLab’s handbook which documents EVERYTHING and is now 2960 pages long: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/tools-and-tips/#count-handbook-pages https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/tools-and-tips/#count-hand...) to enable work across time-zones and lifestyles. And, on a personal note, as a working mother, all-remote and async comms means I can start when I get my kids off to school and be finished and waiting for them when they get off the bus. And, when someone is sick and needs to stay home, I no longer feel like it’s a huge, stressful obstacle that I need to work around, or apologize for, or even, pretend as though it’s not happening (check out this entry from our handbook “Having pets, children, significant others, friends, and family visible during video chats is encouraged. If they are human, ask them to wave at your remote team member to say "Hi"”: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#video-calls https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/#video-calls. Being able to focus on my family AND my career at the same time? That’s kind of priceless.

driverdan 7y ago

How do you compensate someone who travels full time? They could optimize their income by getting a mailbox in a location with maximum pay.

joostdevalk 7y ago

s/WordPress/Automattic/gi

PunchTornado 7y ago

do you still pay salaries based on location? if so, how do you know if a candidate lives in London (expensive) vs Sunderland (cheap as hell)?