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US International Students Lose Internships Because of Outdated Work Policies

• solidsnack9000 7y ago
  The headline might be better written as, Princeton's unwillingness to offer CPT is impacting international students.
  • dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    That won't grab as many clicks and eyeballs though.
• ajspencer 7y ago
  This is tragic. Can anyone on HackerNews help them with advocacy or employment opportunities?
  • temp129038 7y ago
    This is unfortunate, but tragic is stretching it.
  • horyzen 7y ago
    Unfortunately employment opportunity doesn't help in this case. They are already offered jobs/interns but cannot legally start working (anywhere) because they have to wait for the work permit (OPT) to be approved.
• couchand 7y ago
  Off-topic, but check out the moire effect on that image! It's only noticeable (to me) when scrolling, which is an interesting twist.
• dublidu 7y ago
  I was supposed to mentor an intern this summer but his OPT didn't get approved in time. This is such bullshit.
  • option 7y ago
    Routinely happens to us. We made an offer (full time) to a graduating PhD student (US university) from one of the famous deep learning professors (one of three who won a Turing award recently). The guy really like our team and project yet he had Chinese citizenship and when declining our offer said he simply chose Canada vs US.
    • lagolinguini 7y ago
      As an international student who went to a top US university, I'm faced with a similar situation when it comes to H1B. I understand I have no inherent right to be here, and that part of the reason why H1Bs are difficult to get is because of the many frivoulous petitions on behalf of my countrymen from large IT consultancy companies from my company. But when it comes the option between US and Canada, I'd rather pick Canada just for the peace of mind, even though I'd prefer to work in the US and the salaries in Canada are much lower.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• ramraj07 7y ago
  As someone who got his OPT extension before this cluster but still got his H1B rejected, it's safe to say I will highly discourage anyone I know from coming to the States for higher studies. Especially from India, since the Trump USCIS seems to have a special hatred towards Indians (because of outsourced workers abusing H1B? But that's not even the same people). Till recently I felt guilty of the fact that every smart person I ever grew up knowing had emmigrated to the States and left India behind, but maybe this is a good thing for India now? Not sure yet.
  • microcolonel 7y ago
    > the Trump USCIS seems to have a special hatred towards Indians What exactly do you mean by that? Do you have some knowledge to share about Indians specifically having a harder time than others with USCIS recently?
    • satya71 7y ago
      It's hard to come by rigorous numbers. But RFE's (request for evidence) are now the routine (approx 70% of cases) in all immigration cases. I haven't even heard of an acquaintance having their immigration (H1B, OPT, L1, permanent residency) being approved without an RFE in recent times. RFE's used to be the exception rather (where the lawyer/applicant genuinely made a mistake) than the norm. Now it's the other way round. They find a minor technicality to issue an RFE.
      • damnyou 7y ago
        L. Francis Cissna was tremendously good at quietly making the legal system as hostile to immigrants as possible while technically staying within the confines of the law. Trump likes showmanship over substance, though, so he's out. Guessing the new guy will keep the legal system slowdowns in place while upping the fireworks.
      • microcolonel 7y ago
        Yes, but what about Indians in particular? I don't think it would be that hard to make a FOI request for the particular stats about that, so I'd like to know what led ramraj07 to believe that Indians are specifically targeted by USCIS, and specifically during the Trump administration. Presumably you could see that as a sharp line, marking a policy change, in the number of requests for evidence (your measurement) particularly for Indian applicants. To me it seems reasonable that they determine their own criteria for triggering requests for evidence, but I've not heard about a particular policy or pattern for targeting Indian applicants. I'm curious because similar claims have been made here in Canada as of recent; but it's hard to tell since we have a quite strict and inquisitive immigration system to begin with.
• diebeforei485 7y ago
  Sounds like Princeton should be offering a CPT course for credits during the summer like pretty much every other top-ranked university. Students would likely have to pay some amount of tuition for those credits, but that is not too bad in the context of a paid internship. USCIS (the agency that adjudicates OPT cases) is likely massively overloaded with processing border asylum cases at the moment - and recent media reports suggest they have been roping in employees who would usually work other parts of the immigration system to work asylum cases.
  • djakjxnanjak 7y ago
    With an endowment of over $2 million per student, Princeton doesn’t need to charge tuition at all - it’s a choice they can make though.
    • killjoywashere 7y ago
      I've heard the Ivies described as hedge funds with ownership stakes in small liberal arts schools.
    • Scoundreller 7y ago
      Sorta similar, the trust formed to maintain the London Bridge still exists, but from its investments and historic revenue, has switched to charity work and doesn’t collect tolls anymore.
  • HeavenFox 7y ago
    This. In fact they don't even need to charge for the course - my school enrolls the student in a 1-credit course in the subsequent semester. Not providing CPT for internships is probably the worst bureaucracy nightmare for international students. OPT has a high application fee, long turnaround, and takes up time from post-graduation employment. CPT is literally the opposite - I remember stepping into my school's international student office with an offer letter, and 5 minutes later I have my work authorization in hand.
    • therein 7y ago
• sheeshkebab 7y ago
  My previous employer hired F1 grads not bc they were better but bc they were cheaper. I know that bc I interviewed hires (it’s hard to resist for employers the idea that they can get two guys for almost the price of one). these opt programs should be regulated same way they do H1, or better eliminate them. If you really want these graduates to stay and work in the country, just give them permanent residency from the start. It’s better for everyone.
  • kccqzy 7y ago
    > not bc they were better What else do you expect? They are international students, undergoing the same undergraduate or graduate education as US citizens. There's no reason to expect them, as a whole, to perform differently than other US citizen new grads. I've seen very smart and diligent F1 students, as well as some clearly just coasting along without motivation. Just like for US citizen students. > but bc they were cheaper This depends on where you are but in my experience most Silicon Valley companies do not discriminate in terms of compensation based on nationality for new grads.
    • scarejunba 7y ago
      A default assumption is that if you're selecting from A, a superset of B, max(A)>=max(B).
      • FabHK 7y ago
        Sure, if A ⊇ B, max(A) >= max(B), but that does not imply that max(A\B) >= max(B).
        • DuskStar 7y ago
          > A ⊇ B, max(A) >= max(B) I think this is backwards - if A is a subset of B, max(A) <= max(B).
          • FabHK 7y ago
• nameisu 7y ago
  its the invisible wall
• olcor 7y ago
  The writing on the wall has been there for quite some time. I’ve been hearing lots of issues with foreign students facing issues, not just for OPT, but also difficulties getting or continuing assistantships, finding campus jobs, facing direct/indirect threats of losing their visa, etc. This is to be expected; international students are in a vulnerable position, and can be easily taken advantage of by both university officials and by industry (assuming they somehow get a job). I’d advise any foreign aspirant to avoid the USA for further studies unless they can easily afford tuition. No need to fill university coffers with out-of-state tuition for such degrading treatment.
  • killjoywashere 7y ago
    What's interesting from my perspective as the parent of a US teenager about to start senior year of high school: it's hard not to notice that schools are concurrently less and less friendly toward in-state students. They clearly enjoy those sweet out-of-state dollars. I have a friend who's daughter is captain of the gymnastics team, has a 4.something, all the STEM AP courses, and still got rejected by every UC school. The UC system might as well hang a shingle "Locals, keep out".
  • nraynaud 7y ago
    And they receive scam phone calls about their status or the IRS, sometimes directly in Chinese.
• RavlaAlvar 7y ago
  Company should stop hiring foreign student. Murica first!
• dmode 7y ago
  I would highly encourage international students to reconsider their plans of studying in the US. I am coming from my own personal experience, but as you can read from this thread or any immigration forum, the policies of the current administration are increasingly hostile towards immigrants. Especially, Chinese and Indian students should rethink. Few reasons why not to study in the US: 1. USCIS has made the OPT process increasingly difficult as yo u can read from this article. However, OPT is the only option if you want to work in the US post graduation. Chances of getting an employer prior to graduation, who can file your H1 in April and wait for you to join in October is close to zero 2. H1 visa is a crapshoot lottery and if you are not a STEM student, you will most likely get one shot at it. If you are not picked, that's the end of it 3. Even if you get selected in H1, 70% of cases result in RFE for BS reasons that a hostile USCIS agent made up on the spot. H1 laws are so vague that a rogue USCIS officer can make up any reason to deny your petition. 4. Even if you get an approved H1 petition, it comes with a ton of strings attached. And if you travel out of the country you have to get a visa from your home country or Canada or Mexico. The visa process also been made extremely difficult, with routine delays and 3-6 months wait in many cases. Imagine being stuck abroad and having to let your employer know that they have to wait months before you can be back. 5. If you are an Indian student currently, the path to green card simply doesn't exist. There is a 100 year wait for a green card 6. Points #1-5 above are not bugs, but features. US education only makes sense for rich students, who want to study for a few years and return. But then, why would you want to study in the US and deal with the harassment in US consulates and embassies to get an F-1 visa or deal with hostile CBP agents who treat you like enemies after flying for 40 hours.
  • pooya13 7y ago
    I would suggest considering Canada as an alternative. My experience has been mostly positive as an international student in Canada.
    • mcv 7y ago
      There are also many European universities that are welcoming of international students. I'd steer clear from the UK for now, though. No idea how hard it is to get a EU student visa compared to a Canadian one, though.
• debatem1 7y ago
  Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. “Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
  • barry-cotter 7y ago
    International students at Princeton do not exactly qualify as wretched refuse. Almost all are going to be paying full fees; they’re from rich families.
    • debatem1 7y ago
      Do you think the truly destitute get better treatment at our hands? Do you think those words are inscribed on the base of the statue of liberty as a warning to the wealthy? A "keep out!" sign for the hopeful and striving students of the world?
      • thrower123 7y ago
        It's such weird revisionism to think that the US was ever really enthused about welcoming immigrants. That's the ideal, but the reality is that people are clannish and tend towards a "fuck you, got mine" attitude. It's more like pledging a fraternity; pay the dues, get shit on, go through the hazing, and eventually you come out the other side assimilated and ready to haze the next incoming pledge class.
        • 2Ccltvcm 7y ago
          Is it really ideal to ever welcome outsiders with nothing at stake to run your parade? Not disagreeing with your post
• yur501 7y ago
  I am doing my PhD in Netherlands after studying in Belgium. I also worked in USA for a few years as a software engineer. Work culture is more relaxed in EU. My wife is allowed to work here from day of her arrival even though I am a PhD student. Even on a single salary we were able to travel around Europe. I had the option to study in USA for my PhD. Looking at the current situation, I am very happy with my decision to stay in Europe. Public transport is great, language is not a problem in big cities, and food/wine/beer/cheese is amazing.
• harimau777 7y ago
  How reciprocal are international study opportunities? What I mean is: Do US students have similar opportunities to study at foreign universities as foreign students have to study at US universities? When comparing universities with similar entrance requirements (e.g. state schools, prestigious private schools, ivy league, etc.) are there a comparable number of US and foreign openings? How often is instruction in English? (I realize this isn't entirely fair, but the reality is that high quality foreign language training isn't available at many US schools in the same way it is in Europe; which isn't the student's fault). It seems to me that if the opportunities are not symmetrical then it is reasonable for there to be at least some protection/preference for domestic students. However, I think that needs to be balanced against the benefits of attracting foreign talent and expanding diversity. Either way, my understanding is that the US visa system is largely irrational and broken so it should definitely be reformed.
  • valarauko 7y ago
    There are definitely international study opportunities, though the direction usually isn't reciprocal. For example, while Indian students are interested in universities in English speaking countries, there is a sizable international student population in India from East Africa, the Middle East, Iran, and the immediate neighbourhood. Premier institutions, that indian students would kill for, reserve a percentage of seats for students from SAARC countries on the basis of their SATs scores. Private universities offer nicer hostels and emenities for foreign students.
    • selimthegrim 7y ago
      SAARC excluding PK?
      • valarauko 7y ago
        AFAIK
  • FabHK 7y ago
    Many many universities open their doors for international students, frequently with courses in English. If you rank the schools here [1] by "International Students", you'll see universities primarily in Europe, the Middle East, APAC. Often, foreigners pay more than domestic students. Most countries strictly control employment opportunities for non-citizens, of course. [1] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2019 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un...