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So this would largely imply that Amazon's Choice truly is about giving customers the best experience (to the extent possible given the quality of keyword and re

So this would largely imply that Amazon's Choice truly is about giving customers the best experience (to the extent possible given the quality of keyword and review data)?

losteric 7y ago
Basically, labeling products the customer is most likely to purchase. but, pessimistically or realistically, I expect they are also training customers to blindly trust the black box and eventually the criteria will change towards maximizing short-term value.
- xwdv 7y ago
  Don’t see why that’s a bad thing, the less time I spend browsing amazon and reading reviews to find a suitable product the better. As long as people are consistently happy with the things they get they only have reason to rejoice. Could I get something cheaper if I spend time looking for it? Maybe, but the time I spend looking is also money down the drain, for what usually amounts to savings of a couple dollars and cents. Rarely worth it.
  - jedimastert 7y ago
    I see two problems. First, the Amazon rating system is untrustworthy. There is simply far too much counterfeit reviewing and far too little done about it. This is a systemic problem that just needs to be fixed for the platform as a whole. The more nuanced problem, I think, is the fact that it can create a feedback loop. Something can be popular simply because it's cheap, but "Amazon's Choice" implies quality, which makes people think they're getting a deal because it's also cheap. What sprung to mind for me was LockpickingLawyer's[1] series on Amazon's Choice for things like "padlock", lock, and safe, all of which were of fairly low quality, or at least lower quality than "Amazon's Choice" would suggest. The problem is that, most of the time, people aren't going to know that what they have is low quality because it will almost never get tested and most people don't know anything about lock security. So they trust Amazon to tell them, when really it's the blind leading the blind [1]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ [2]: https://youtu.be/kJ1_P5oqf6Y https://youtu.be/kJ1_P5oqf6Y
    - dahfizz 7y ago
      I agree with the spirit of your comment, but I think padlocks is a bad example. The "quality" of a padlock genuinely does not matter. You should know this if you watch LPL! An experienced picker can get into any lock. And a determined but less dexterous enemy can trivially cut any lock you paid less that $100 for. And even then it won't take someone with the right tool more than a minute or two to cut through any padlock. It's the same way with bike locks, or really any lock. They are a deterrent against the unwashed masses, but they never actually stop a determined actor.
      - nitrogen 7y ago
        they never actually stop a determined actor. And that is never actually the point. Most theft is not personally targeted. Sure there are the times that someone cuts a hole through a storage unit into a neighboring unit they know has expensive stuff, but mostly it's opportunistic. If you have a weaker lock, you have greater risk. Especially if your lock is so weak that it is trivial to make it look like it wasn't broken until you try to open it. This happened to me once. I bought my lock from the storage company, but someone broke and then visibly reassembled the lock. Lost all the early prototypes from my startup, plus thousands in replaceable equipment.
        dahfizz 7y ago
        > If you have a weaker lock, you have greater risk. I think this is only true in limited circumstances. Someone went to the storage facility with the intention of stealing, and had the opportunity to window shop for the weakest looking lock.
- nextos 7y ago
  Yes, also in my experience "Amazon's Choice" does not protect you from counterfeit, grey market or any other crap items. I wrote to jeff (at) amazon (dot) com last week about this, because I got super upset. And some middle manager replied. I shipped US -> UK some underwear from a company that uses no latex (I'm allergic), sends items inside a ziplocked sealed bag and prohibits underwear returns (for hygiene reasons). After waiting for the parcel for 2 days at home, as I was in a hurry to get more latex free underwear, I got an Amazon envelope and the underwear came inside without any packaging and clearly used (!). I was furious. Not an isolated event. A few weeks ago, I ordered a shower with a chlorine filter from Amazon UK. I know this korean brand very well. Again, I got the item without any original packaging, and water inside (!). So I don't trust Amazon anymore for items that are more than $10. People abuse the return policy, and Amazon does not care. Or it's even their business model: Ship it again, selling it as new. Online shopping is getting very tricky. I'd gladly pay more at places that guarantee brand new items. Things are getting really scammy. Around 1/5 of the items I buy online have been opened and used, or have some defects. And I'm talking about expensive stuff and supposedly reputable sellers.
  - mentat 7y ago
    The jeff@ experience is really poor now. There doesn't seem to be a way to request real review by someone who might care about something other than ticket throughput. I tried it when I got a ding against my account because my wife and I had ordered something that in total was over a limit. I was accused of misuse of accounts. Ended up move all my personal data out of Amazon because of it.
    - gnicholas 7y ago
      It's been bad for years. I've heard from people who have gotten emails back that said that Amazon is actively pursuing a partnership with a company that they have never contacted (mine). Other people say they just get boilerplate responses that seem to be written by bad AI or non-native speakers who didn't understand the customer email.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 7y ago
    That’s nasty. They do point out in the article at least two examples where knockoff fashion items were badges instead of the real deal, so it seems somewhat pervasive.
- ape4 7y ago
  So Amazon's Choices is products that have been many customer's choice.
Reedx 7y ago
Yeah, I suspect the core motivation is to combat paradox of choice. Doing so is in the best interest of both the customer and Amazon.
- jdreyfuss 7y ago
  Right, this makes sense to me. If you can cut down on customers' needs to make a decision, you'll increase the likelihood that someone makes a purchase. Building consumer trust by recommending actually good products is in Amazon's interest here
- throwaway1280 7y ago
  Yup. There was a famous memo from Jeff that went round years ago that read something like "I want to buy a kettle. I search for 'kettle' and I get thousands of products. That sucks - now I have to comparison shop for kettles, when I don't particularly care what sort of kettle I get. Why can't Amazon just tell me 'buy this one'?" Amazon's choice arrived years after my tenure at the big A, and I'm not sure it's directly connected, but it definitely helps solve this problem.
  - losteric 7y ago
    That's a blindfold, not a solution. If I told a personal assistant "I want any kettle", they would know there's an implied <among buy-it-for-life high-quality stainless steel in America with a non-garish finish>. They would also know me well enough to provide options when it's a non-commodity context, ie pressure cookers where the same implied values hold but I want to actually made the feature tradeoffs as a poweruser. YouTube went down then global optimization path, and the experience was terrible...
manojlds 7y ago
Amazon's Choice in the context that Amazon is other customers here, makes sense. Amazon Customers' Choice essentially.
modzu 7y ago
no, most users are still probably under the impression that "amazon's choice" means more than an automatic algorithmically derived badge. the wording implies a conscious decision was made, but there was none it would be better phrased as what it truly is: a badge that says "popular item" or similar. even "shopper's choice". the intent of the badge is to sell (as the article states, combat the paradox of choice)

So this would largely imply that Amazon's Choice truly is about giving customers the best experience (to the extent possible given the quality of keyword and review data)?

losteric 7y ago

Basically, labeling products the customer is most likely to purchase. but, pessimistically or realistically, I expect they are also training customers to blindly trust the black box and eventually the criteria will change towards maximizing short-term value.

xwdv 7y ago
Don’t see why that’s a bad thing, the less time I spend browsing amazon and reading reviews to find a suitable product the better. As long as people are consistently happy with the things they get they only have reason to rejoice. Could I get something cheaper if I spend time looking for it? Maybe, but the time I spend looking is also money down the drain, for what usually amounts to savings of a couple dollars and cents. Rarely worth it.
- jedimastert 7y ago
  I see two problems. First, the Amazon rating system is untrustworthy. There is simply far too much counterfeit reviewing and far too little done about it. This is a systemic problem that just needs to be fixed for the platform as a whole. The more nuanced problem, I think, is the fact that it can create a feedback loop. Something can be popular simply because it's cheap, but "Amazon's Choice" implies quality, which makes people think they're getting a deal because it's also cheap. What sprung to mind for me was LockpickingLawyer's[1] series on Amazon's Choice for things like "padlock", lock, and safe, all of which were of fairly low quality, or at least lower quality than "Amazon's Choice" would suggest. The problem is that, most of the time, people aren't going to know that what they have is low quality because it will almost never get tested and most people don't know anything about lock security. So they trust Amazon to tell them, when really it's the blind leading the blind [1]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ [2]: https://youtu.be/kJ1_P5oqf6Y https://youtu.be/kJ1_P5oqf6Y
  - dahfizz 7y ago
    I agree with the spirit of your comment, but I think padlocks is a bad example. The "quality" of a padlock genuinely does not matter. You should know this if you watch LPL! An experienced picker can get into any lock. And a determined but less dexterous enemy can trivially cut any lock you paid less that $100 for. And even then it won't take someone with the right tool more than a minute or two to cut through any padlock. It's the same way with bike locks, or really any lock. They are a deterrent against the unwashed masses, but they never actually stop a determined actor.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      they never actually stop a determined actor. And that is never actually the point. Most theft is not personally targeted. Sure there are the times that someone cuts a hole through a storage unit into a neighboring unit they know has expensive stuff, but mostly it's opportunistic. If you have a weaker lock, you have greater risk. Especially if your lock is so weak that it is trivial to make it look like it wasn't broken until you try to open it. This happened to me once. I bought my lock from the storage company, but someone broke and then visibly reassembled the lock. Lost all the early prototypes from my startup, plus thousands in replaceable equipment.
      - dahfizz 7y ago
        > If you have a weaker lock, you have greater risk. I think this is only true in limited circumstances. Someone went to the storage facility with the intention of stealing, and had the opportunity to window shop for the weakest looking lock.
nextos 7y ago
Yes, also in my experience "Amazon's Choice" does not protect you from counterfeit, grey market or any other crap items. I wrote to jeff (at) amazon (dot) com last week about this, because I got super upset. And some middle manager replied. I shipped US -> UK some underwear from a company that uses no latex (I'm allergic), sends items inside a ziplocked sealed bag and prohibits underwear returns (for hygiene reasons). After waiting for the parcel for 2 days at home, as I was in a hurry to get more latex free underwear, I got an Amazon envelope and the underwear came inside without any packaging and clearly used (!). I was furious. Not an isolated event. A few weeks ago, I ordered a shower with a chlorine filter from Amazon UK. I know this korean brand very well. Again, I got the item without any original packaging, and water inside (!). So I don't trust Amazon anymore for items that are more than $10. People abuse the return policy, and Amazon does not care. Or it's even their business model: Ship it again, selling it as new. Online shopping is getting very tricky. I'd gladly pay more at places that guarantee brand new items. Things are getting really scammy. Around 1/5 of the items I buy online have been opened and used, or have some defects. And I'm talking about expensive stuff and supposedly reputable sellers.
- mentat 7y ago
  The jeff@ experience is really poor now. There doesn't seem to be a way to request real review by someone who might care about something other than ticket throughput. I tried it when I got a ding against my account because my wife and I had ordered something that in total was over a limit. I was accused of misuse of accounts. Ended up move all my personal data out of Amazon because of it.
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    It's been bad for years. I've heard from people who have gotten emails back that said that Amazon is actively pursuing a partnership with a company that they have never contacted (mine). Other people say they just get boilerplate responses that seem to be written by bad AI or non-native speakers who didn't understand the customer email.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 7y ago
  That’s nasty. They do point out in the article at least two examples where knockoff fashion items were badges instead of the real deal, so it seems somewhat pervasive.
ape4 7y ago
So Amazon's Choices is products that have been many customer's choice.

Reedx 7y ago

Yeah, I suspect the core motivation is to combat paradox of choice. Doing so is in the best interest of both the customer and Amazon.

jdreyfuss 7y ago
Right, this makes sense to me. If you can cut down on customers' needs to make a decision, you'll increase the likelihood that someone makes a purchase. Building consumer trust by recommending actually good products is in Amazon's interest here
throwaway1280 7y ago
Yup. There was a famous memo from Jeff that went round years ago that read something like "I want to buy a kettle. I search for 'kettle' and I get thousands of products. That sucks - now I have to comparison shop for kettles, when I don't particularly care what sort of kettle I get. Why can't Amazon just tell me 'buy this one'?" Amazon's choice arrived years after my tenure at the big A, and I'm not sure it's directly connected, but it definitely helps solve this problem.
- losteric 7y ago
  That's a blindfold, not a solution. If I told a personal assistant "I want any kettle", they would know there's an implied <among buy-it-for-life high-quality stainless steel in America with a non-garish finish>. They would also know me well enough to provide options when it's a non-commodity context, ie pressure cookers where the same implied values hold but I want to actually made the feature tradeoffs as a poweruser. YouTube went down then global optimization path, and the experience was terrible...

manojlds 7y ago

Amazon's Choice in the context that Amazon is other customers here, makes sense. Amazon Customers' Choice essentially.

modzu 7y ago

no, most users are still probably under the impression that "amazon's choice" means more than an automatic algorithmically derived badge. the wording implies a conscious decision was made, but there was none it would be better phrased as what it truly is: a badge that says "popular item" or similar. even "shopper's choice". the intent of the badge is to sell (as the article states, combat the paradox of choice)