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Who gets to pass judgement on engineers for writing code? Who decides what code is ethical? You? Why should anyone listen to you on this matter? Why not me? Why

Who gets to pass judgement on engineers for writing code? Who decides what code is ethical? You? Why should anyone listen to you on this matter? Why not me? Why not my dog? The shareholder system of control is at least honest and transparent. Calls for moral boycotts are either ineffective or put power in the hands of the self-righteous, and I think that's far more dangerous than shareholder votes.

StanislavPetrov 7y ago
The, "I'm just doing my job" defense was pretty well debunked at Nuremberg.
- quotemstr 7y ago
  There's a reason Godwin's law exists. Once you start comparing people and ideas to Nazis, you can't have a nuanced and intelligent conversation.
  - StanislavPetrov 7y ago
    Don't act like a spade if you don't want to be called a spade. Its about the concept of personal responsibility. We are all always responsible for everything we do. The debate is over, its been litigated, there is no nuanced or intelligent position that defends the assertion that you aren't responsible for your own actions whether you are getting paid by someone else or not.
    - quotemstr 7y ago
      > there is no nuanced or intelligent position that defends the assertion that you aren't responsible for your own actions Such a position is a longstanding feature of law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity I get that some people don't want these principles to exist and would prefer personal liability in everything, but I would suggest that these people be very careful what they wish for.
      - StanislavPetrov 7y ago
        I get that a lot of people want to substitute law for morality because are incapable or unwilling to understand the critical distinction between the two.
        Retra 7y ago
        The only distinction is that with law, you can actually hold people responsible for their actions in a way that matters.
  - Supermancho 7y ago
    I don't think this is a Godwin situation. The question about personal responsibility is at the forefront of this discussion, which happens to also have been applied at the end of WW2, as a matter of moral continuity. When you then go on to detail how this a facet of western law, you belie the Godwin claim, you brought up for no reason.
panarky 7y ago
> The shareholder system of control is at least honest and transparent The shareholder system of control foists massive negative externalities on the public while concentrating profits in the hands of a few. It's like advertising toxic waste disposal for $100 a tonne, then dumping the carcinogenic sludge in the town square while keeping the cash for yourself. If you're a real capitalist, you peel off 1% of your windfall to support politicians who sabotage any attempt at regulating toxic waste disposal.
- quotemstr 7y ago
  Dumping toxic waste in the town square is illegal. If what Facebook is doing is so bad, why can't you assemble a political constituency to make it illegal? Is it possible that this "every FB engineer is a moral criminal" stance is actually a fringe view espoused by a radical minority and not a principle we should consider seriously? I think so. I reject the OP's claim to moral authority. A thing isn't bad just because some random commentator on HN says it's bad. The law is how we encode legitimate and society-wide consensus on what's bad. I am under an obligation to follow the law. I am under no obligation to behave according to what some random HN commentator wants to ban this week.
  - codegladiator 7y ago
    The engineers are definitely involved. This doesn't mean that we will stop creating things which can hurt people, but people who are involved in the pipeline need to be held responsible for supplying/maintaining to those with bad intentions. So making guns is okay, supplying them randomly is illegal at most places because they just do harm. Similarly there at these companies the engineers working to maintain the infra making it all possible. Engineers need to understand where their work is getting put at.
  - vimax 7y ago
    Okay, so then let's go by the numerous fines they've had to pay for not following data and privacy regulations along with a looming antitrust case. Pretty sure that goes beyond just some commenters on HN.
  - 7y ago
bongobongo 7y ago
Literally everybody gets to pass judgment on you. How can you be an adult and not realize this?

StanislavPetrov 7y ago

The, "I'm just doing my job" defense was pretty well debunked at Nuremberg.

quotemstr 7y ago
There's a reason Godwin's law exists. Once you start comparing people and ideas to Nazis, you can't have a nuanced and intelligent conversation.
- StanislavPetrov 7y ago
  Don't act like a spade if you don't want to be called a spade. Its about the concept of personal responsibility. We are all always responsible for everything we do. The debate is over, its been litigated, there is no nuanced or intelligent position that defends the assertion that you aren't responsible for your own actions whether you are getting paid by someone else or not.
  - quotemstr 7y ago
    > there is no nuanced or intelligent position that defends the assertion that you aren't responsible for your own actions Such a position is a longstanding feature of law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity I get that some people don't want these principles to exist and would prefer personal liability in everything, but I would suggest that these people be very careful what they wish for.
    - StanislavPetrov 7y ago
      I get that a lot of people want to substitute law for morality because are incapable or unwilling to understand the critical distinction between the two.
      - Retra 7y ago
        The only distinction is that with law, you can actually hold people responsible for their actions in a way that matters.
- Supermancho 7y ago
  I don't think this is a Godwin situation. The question about personal responsibility is at the forefront of this discussion, which happens to also have been applied at the end of WW2, as a matter of moral continuity. When you then go on to detail how this a facet of western law, you belie the Godwin claim, you brought up for no reason.

panarky 7y ago

> The shareholder system of control is at least honest and transparent The shareholder system of control foists massive negative externalities on the public while concentrating profits in the hands of a few. It's like advertising toxic waste disposal for $100 a tonne, then dumping the carcinogenic sludge in the town square while keeping the cash for yourself. If you're a real capitalist, you peel off 1% of your windfall to support politicians who sabotage any attempt at regulating toxic waste disposal.

quotemstr 7y ago
Dumping toxic waste in the town square is illegal. If what Facebook is doing is so bad, why can't you assemble a political constituency to make it illegal? Is it possible that this "every FB engineer is a moral criminal" stance is actually a fringe view espoused by a radical minority and not a principle we should consider seriously? I think so. I reject the OP's claim to moral authority. A thing isn't bad just because some random commentator on HN says it's bad. The law is how we encode legitimate and society-wide consensus on what's bad. I am under an obligation to follow the law. I am under no obligation to behave according to what some random HN commentator wants to ban this week.
- codegladiator 7y ago
  The engineers are definitely involved. This doesn't mean that we will stop creating things which can hurt people, but people who are involved in the pipeline need to be held responsible for supplying/maintaining to those with bad intentions. So making guns is okay, supplying them randomly is illegal at most places because they just do harm. Similarly there at these companies the engineers working to maintain the infra making it all possible. Engineers need to understand where their work is getting put at.
- vimax 7y ago
  Okay, so then let's go by the numerous fines they've had to pay for not following data and privacy regulations along with a looming antitrust case. Pretty sure that goes beyond just some commenters on HN.
- 7y ago

bongobongo 7y ago

Literally everybody gets to pass judgment on you. How can you be an adult and not realize this?