4 ms·

Been telling people for a while, if we think the amount of refugees from our wars is bad, just wait till you see the number arriving due to the fuel we burn. T

Been telling people for a while, if we think the amount of refugees from our wars is bad, just wait till you see the number arriving due to the fuel we burn. Though given our reaction to the current wave of refugees, we will blame the refugees for their own predicament and probably George Soros, as is tradition, long before we accept any blame ourselves.

kabwj 7y ago
Or we will simply not accept the refugees. As you said at current numbers it’s been really bad. At much higher numbers it will simply be a better and more popular option to close the border.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  At current numbers, the effect on our own society from our own reaction has cause much more damage to ourselves than the effects from the refugees themselves. I suspect you may be right that the popular option will be to close the border. I do not agree however, that it is the better option.
  - kabwj 7y ago
    It’s caused a divide because the number of current economic refugees is relatively small. Thus many people thought it was possible to have them stay in the first world. Hence the divide in public opinion. But I believe that if the estimates are right, the number of climate refugees will be so high that people will more or less agree that it’s better to close the border in that situation.
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      >the number of current economic refugees is relatively small Interesting way to describe people fleeing war.
      - kache_ 7y ago
        Economic refugees don't have it good either. Starving and dying from disease isn't easy.
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        If you are travelling because otherwise you will starve while dying from disease, you are a refugee. Economic migration generally assumes that you are not likely to die from returning. I do not think it is that wise to conflate the terms.
        Scoundreller 7y ago
        Being too poor to not have enough food, or experiencing a crop failure, does not meet official definitions of refugee eligibility: https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/ https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        It does meet common dictionary definitions though - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/refugee https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/refugee
        Scoundreller 7y ago
        Your link’s definition limits it to issues of war, persecution or natural disasters. A crop failure might be a natural disaster, but lots of other causes of starvation that are not. Main point is, if you’re seeking refuge, try to put a clear-cut reason down rather than something debatable, but sensible, like absolute poverty.
- hedora 7y ago
  What happens when the coasts stop accepting refugees from the red states? This will certainly happen in a scenario where there are massive refugee populations elsewhere in the world.
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    Oh joy. Grapes of Wrath 2, heavy weapons edition.
- empath75 7y ago
  Eventually policies like that will lead to mass deaths.
- z3phyr 7y ago
  Then slowly the climate change will come for you. Will your borders stop the climate?
- mikeash 7y ago
  To riff on a common quote: if a million refugees want to get into your country and you don’t admit them, the refugees have a problem. If a billion refugees want in, you have a problem. Nothing “simply” about it.
  - user5994461 7y ago
    That's a wrong statement though. One million people is a single city. You do have a problem if one million people are suddenly relocating. It has happened before for war, natural disasters or other reasons. Migrating a billion people is not a thing, for the simple fact that there isn't any human settlement any close to approaching a billion people. If you're talking about the scale of a whole continent, migratory flux span over a lifetime and are not homogeneous.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      I’m talking from the perspective of the country the refugees are trying to enter. If a million refugees are headed your way and you don’t want to let them in, you can close the border and enact strict immigration controls and you’re fine. Sucks for the refugees, but the target country has no problem aside from the emotional burden. If a billion people are headed your way, you’re fucked.
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      >Migrating a billion people is not a thing Yet.
wtdata 7y ago
> just wait till you see the number arriving due to the fuel we burn. But in the case is the fuel they burn, right? India is projected to become the 2nd biggest producer of CO2 (behind China) this decade. Also, I go around here and gasoline is so cheap that people don't care about waste. Drivers let their cars with the motor on while they go to buy some small thing to eat or drink.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  Per capita India is still pretty good, they just have a lot of people. Also their emissions wouldn't be a problem yet without the last 100 years of emissions from Europe and North America. They are slowly becoming part of the problem, but I don't think it's fair to blame yet.
- wtmt 7y ago
  India also has a huge dairy industry [1] (seems like the largest), where methane produced by these animals adds to the greenhouse effect. [1]: https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=milk&graph=cows-in-milk https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=milk&graph...

kabwj 7y ago

Or we will simply not accept the refugees. As you said at current numbers it’s been really bad. At much higher numbers it will simply be a better and more popular option to close the border.

inflatableDodo 7y ago
At current numbers, the effect on our own society from our own reaction has cause much more damage to ourselves than the effects from the refugees themselves. I suspect you may be right that the popular option will be to close the border. I do not agree however, that it is the better option.
- kabwj 7y ago
  It’s caused a divide because the number of current economic refugees is relatively small. Thus many people thought it was possible to have them stay in the first world. Hence the divide in public opinion. But I believe that if the estimates are right, the number of climate refugees will be so high that people will more or less agree that it’s better to close the border in that situation.
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    >the number of current economic refugees is relatively small Interesting way to describe people fleeing war.
    - kache_ 7y ago
      Economic refugees don't have it good either. Starving and dying from disease isn't easy.
      - inflatableDodo 7y ago
        If you are travelling because otherwise you will starve while dying from disease, you are a refugee. Economic migration generally assumes that you are not likely to die from returning. I do not think it is that wise to conflate the terms.
        Scoundreller 7y ago
        Being too poor to not have enough food, or experiencing a crop failure, does not meet official definitions of refugee eligibility: https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/ https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        It does meet common dictionary definitions though - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/refugee https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/refugee
        Scoundreller 7y ago
        Your link’s definition limits it to issues of war, persecution or natural disasters. A crop failure might be a natural disaster, but lots of other causes of starvation that are not. Main point is, if you’re seeking refuge, try to put a clear-cut reason down rather than something debatable, but sensible, like absolute poverty.
hedora 7y ago
What happens when the coasts stop accepting refugees from the red states? This will certainly happen in a scenario where there are massive refugee populations elsewhere in the world.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  Oh joy. Grapes of Wrath 2, heavy weapons edition.
empath75 7y ago
Eventually policies like that will lead to mass deaths.
z3phyr 7y ago
Then slowly the climate change will come for you. Will your borders stop the climate?
mikeash 7y ago
To riff on a common quote: if a million refugees want to get into your country and you don’t admit them, the refugees have a problem. If a billion refugees want in, you have a problem. Nothing “simply” about it.
- user5994461 7y ago
  That's a wrong statement though. One million people is a single city. You do have a problem if one million people are suddenly relocating. It has happened before for war, natural disasters or other reasons. Migrating a billion people is not a thing, for the simple fact that there isn't any human settlement any close to approaching a billion people. If you're talking about the scale of a whole continent, migratory flux span over a lifetime and are not homogeneous.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    I’m talking from the perspective of the country the refugees are trying to enter. If a million refugees are headed your way and you don’t want to let them in, you can close the border and enact strict immigration controls and you’re fine. Sucks for the refugees, but the target country has no problem aside from the emotional burden. If a billion people are headed your way, you’re fucked.
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    >Migrating a billion people is not a thing Yet.

wtdata 7y ago

> just wait till you see the number arriving due to the fuel we burn. But in the case is the fuel they burn, right? India is projected to become the 2nd biggest producer of CO2 (behind China) this decade. Also, I go around here and gasoline is so cheap that people don't care about waste. Drivers let their cars with the motor on while they go to buy some small thing to eat or drink.

wongarsu 7y ago
Per capita India is still pretty good, they just have a lot of people. Also their emissions wouldn't be a problem yet without the last 100 years of emissions from Europe and North America. They are slowly becoming part of the problem, but I don't think it's fair to blame yet.
wtmt 7y ago
India also has a huge dairy industry [1] (seems like the largest), where methane produced by these animals adds to the greenhouse effect. [1]: https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=milk&graph=cows-in-milk https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=milk&graph...