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A new census shows how a Brazilian favela works
- RappingBoomer 7y agoah, the Economist magazine, purveyor of establishment propaganda, wants to tell us how horrible the favelas are, and how wonderful america is...america, where we slave away decade after decade, never knowing when medical bankruptcy will destroy our life savings...but at least we know we are lucky compared to the poor denizens of the favela, those who are doomed to a life of leisure and casual sex and bathing in the waters of the warm ocean and eating ripe fruit on the side of the road...and they can barely afford a smartphone...those doomed souls...they don't even have the privilege of paying 10 dollars for a small piece of meat at Whole Foods....why, they don't even get to have a 30 year MORTGAGE!
- 83457 7y agoDid you read the article?
- RappingBoomer 7y agobeen reading The EConomist and its ilk for 40 years...I know exactly what they do
- b_tterc_p 7y agoThis has so many myopic statements it’s hard to pick one, so I’m going to randomly choose... ocean bathing... Recall that Brazil is where the United Nations had to tell swimmers to cover any scratches or open wounds in their body before getting in the water for the olympics, and to shower immediately after. And that was in the nicer area. The water quality in the favelas is even worse.
- malandrew 7y agoThey were specifically talking about the Bahia de Guanabara not the beach water. Huge difference between those two. Beaches like Barra da Tijuica, Ipenama, Leblon, São Conrado and Prainha are fine to bath in.
- airstrike 7y agohttps://praialimpa.net/ https://praialimpa.net/ None of the red ones are proper for bathing.
- tacon 7y agoIn 1994, I visited Rio and somehow met a computer scientist who was responsible for the sole internet POP in all of Brazil. He even took me into the university lab to see the equipment. It turns out his wife worked as a civil engineer for the city of Rio at the time, and she worked on waste water. He told me it would take her an hour of studying the latest data about weather, currents, and water tests before she would take their kids to the one specific beach that was safest that day. At least back then, all the beaches were polluted, just some were better than others.
- duxup 7y ago"establishment" I feel like this word has lost meaning and now is just a placeholder for " I don't like it".
- airstrike 7y ago> why, they don't even get to have a 30 year MORTGAGE! Interest rates are so God damn high in Brazil you can't really take a mortgage. People save up for their entire lives before buying a home, for the most part. Or you hope to inherit something from your parents, if you're upper middle class. Or alternatively move to a really shitty neighborhood / city so you can afford that (see e.g. Recreio dos Bandeirantes in Rio de Janeiro where all the affluent "Zona Sul" folks have to move to so they can afford a cheaply built apartment)
- fcarraldo 7y agoIs that any different from the US, though?
- airstrike 7y agoYes, obviously. https://www.valuepenguin.com/mortgages/average-mortgage-rates https://www.valuepenguin.com/mortgages/average-mortgage-rate... > The average rate for a 30-year fixed rate mortgage is currently 4.39%, with actual offered rates ranging from 3.50% to 7.84%. https://g1.globo.com/economia/noticia/2019/01/08/caixa-ja-pratica-juros-de-mercado-no-credito-imobiliario-compare-as-taxas-dos-bancos-para-a-casa-propria.ghtml https://g1.globo.com/economia/noticia/2019/01/08/caixa-ja-pr... Ctrl+F % if you don't speak Portuguese and you'll find numbers around the ~8-10% range currently, as well as a reference to rates being at 11.9% (11,9%) as recently as last year
- marcosdumay 7y agoYet people do take 30 years mortgages all the time. The interest alone can be as high as double of the local rent, but people do take them.
- airstrike 7y agoPeople also buy snake oil, but smart, informed people don't
- malandrew 7y agoThe 2013 “Has Brazil Blown It?” From the Economist was one of the best pieces of foreign journalist describing what’s wrong with my country: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/leaders/2013/09/27/has-brazil-blown-it https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/leaders/2013/...
- meruru 7y agoNon-amp URL: http://economist.com/leaders/2013/09/27/has-brazil-blown-it http://economist.com/leaders/2013/09/27/has-brazil-blown-it
- dang 7y agoWould you please not post in the flamewar style to HN?
- ryanmccullagh 7y agoAnyone who has never been to Brazil has no right to speak about this topic. Edit: I see the down-votes, but will stand my ground on this topic.
- diminoten 7y agoI've been to Brazil. Stayed in Rio for 5 days. Went to Sugarloaf Mountain and saw Cristo Redentor. Saw a regional "futbol" match, got drunk and danced the night away. Never stepped foot into a favela, closest I got was as I flew into and out of the airport there. Why do I have a right to speak about Brazilian favelas and a (team of) reporter(s) whose done dozens (or hundreds) of hours of research on the topic does not?
- ryanmccullagh 7y agoYou don't have any right since you've never been to Brazil outside of tourist context. All the places you've listed are famous tourist attractions. Do you believe your opinion and views about Favelas actually have merit? If so, on what basis?
- biesnecker 7y agoThe point was being made that your "been to Brazil" bar is far too low.
- rexpop 7y agoYou're committing the same fallacy as the other responder. This bar is THE LEAST of the thresholds, not THE LAST of them. You're misconstruing the comments to which you're responding.
- b_tterc_p 7y agoI lived in Brazil for a year and drove past Favelas sometimes but otherwise lived an upper middle class lifestyle. Do I have a right to speak about Brazilian favelas unlike a (team of) reporter(s) whose done dozens (or hundreds) of hours of research on the topic?
- throwawayr1188 7y agoWell, in Rio, I believe life in favela truly is horrible for most of the time. I can think of a few reasons: - Lack of decent public education - Lack of decent healthcare - Lack of basic infrastructure, in a lot of favelas, they don't even legally have electricity - Jobs are scarce, favela's citizens usually endure long commutes under the very inefficient public transport system to work low-paying jobs - Rio's favelas are usually located in hills, when it rains, landslides are very common, more often than not they are deadly - Most favelas are dominated by heavily armed drug dealers (most of their weaponry are semi-auto rifles coming from the USA), law-abiding citizens often see themselves under gunfire between rival gangs or cops - Citizens are often extorted by drug dealers, or even corrupt cops. They need to pay a "protection tax" in exchange for basic services I could go on and on ... Source: Born and raised in Rio
- scurvy 7y agoCurious that criminals would import semi auto rifles from the US when Brazil has a very large domestic gun maker (Taurus). The Taurus guns should be massively cheaper. Unless you're referring to the full auto weapons flooded into South America by the CIA in the 80's. Those I could believe are cheaper.
- xfalcox 7y agoTaurus quality control illustrated (turn on the subtitles) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9_YWNo1f-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9_YWNo1f-o
- briffle 7y agoThey are the packard bell of firearms.. I don't miss that desktop company.
- felipelemos 7y agoThey don't buy guns in a shop. That's the reason.
- melling 7y agoI went to Brazil about 15 years ago. My girlfriend signed us up for a favela tour in Rio. We had a private guide. It was going pretty well until the police started a raid. The fireworks went off to let people know the police were coming. I saw one cop who looked terrified and I saw another shooting indiscriminately up a hill with his rifle. At first, I wasn’t worried but everyone around us went behind a truck, so we joined them. After that, the guide was ready to continue but my girlfriend said we were done. Our Brazilian friend back in the states said we should have never gone in the first place. The favelas are run by the gangs. She grew up in one of them so I assume she knows what she’s talking about. Fortunately for me, it was my girlfriend’s idea.
- gcb0 7y agoFavelas are neighborhoods where lots and lots of families live their everyday life. It has crime just like any other place (e.g. a Phd in UCLA mapped gangs in LA, santa monica and Beverly hills had the most count of gangs and members) but the police treat favelas as their war ground, causing an artificial firepower escalation. And the reason is twofold: by twisting public opinion that favelas only have criminals you can relinquish all forms of state spending (culture, etc) and you can maintain a tight grip on the local political representation during elections, and favelas have lots of votes. In sum, it has nothing to do with the gangs per-se. It's more artificial public policy.
- gamblor956 7y agoWhile I know Santa Monica used to have a huge gang population about 10 years ago in the neighborhoods between Santa Monica College and Santa Monica High School and generally south of the 10 freeway, that area has since gentrified quite heavily and LAPD maps shows insignificant gang activity in those neighborhoods. I would be very surprised to see that there ever was any significant street gang activity in Beverly Hills, since that municipality spends a significant amount of money on street patrols to keep criminal activity low. Moreover, Beverly Hills is a fairly racially homogenous city...
- ivanhoe 7y agoDunno about US experience, but for someone coming from Europe like me favelas that I've visited in Rio surely left impression of very dangerous places - and I grew up in Serbia in 90s, been through wars and all that shit and anarchy, and had my share of street education. Now, it's quite possible that they have less crime than some other neighborhoods, but that's just because gangs keep a close grip on their territory. As long as you play by their rules you can live your life sort-of normally. Problem with living in such surrounding arrises when you're forced to go against them, as there's no law to protect you, so you're fully at their mercy. That's a HUGE difference from Santa Monica or Beverly Hills, and much more like living in Somalia.
- lhorie 7y agoIs it really that surprising that large favelas have things like supermarkets? Yes, there are drug lords and extreme gun violence and illegal electrical installations, but these slums have been around for decades and are home to hundreds of thousands of people. Many of these people are not interested in a life of crime, but simply don't have the means to live anywhere else, so what else would they do if not slowly build towards a semblance of civilization in the area where they are forced to live?
- ricardobeat 7y agoYes, it is surprising to see over 3000 illegal businesses in a neighborhood, working under a violent regime. Is there a point to your comment we’re missing? It’s a lot more interesting to discuss the findings, than your impression of people’s impressions on it. For example, how much cash flows from these business to traffickers.
- watwut 7y ago> Yes, it is surprising to see over 3000 illegal businesses in a neighborhood, working under a violent regime. Out of curiosity, why do you think there would not be illegal businesses in place where many people live and on one hand needs to buy things and on the other needs money?
- divbyzer0 7y agoPlenty of legal businesses too, e.g. Bank of Brazil in Rocinha: https://goo.gl/maps/pK3K1Lc24fgh7wzv6 https://goo.gl/maps/pK3K1Lc24fgh7wzv6 When I lived in an affluent part of Rio, I often got my haircut, bought fruit, veg and groceries in the local slum. Many locals believed the slums were strictly no-go. While some certainly were, many were fine. Rather than build a mental barrier around these places, I find its better to interact. Common sense, courtesy, some humility are all that are required - that goes for the high brow malls as well as the favelas.
- namenotrequired 7y agoI’d love to do this. I live in SP. How do I know which ones are safe even for someone with a noticeable gringo look and accent? Whose word to trust?
- fopen64 7y agoFavelas are a mass transit problem. People live there, in bad conditions, because they are somewhat nearer to their jobs. Otherwise, they would spend half a day in their way to work.. Renting a 'house' in a favela is more expensive then renting a good house in small cities.
- marcosdumay 7y agoRio has one of the best public transportation systems of Brazil. What is a shame really, because yes, it's not that good. But the urban area goes for dozens of km on every way. Rio is confined between the sea and the hills, there aren't many places to expand into suburbia.
- neonate 7y agohttps://outline.com/2kMJur https://outline.com/2kMJur
- ascavalcante80 7y agoAs @throwawayr1188, me too, I'm born and raised in Rio, and I'm very surprised to see such article on Hacker News. No doubt, a favela can be a very dangerous place from an foreign, but I understand the fact that many people are curious to see how it really looks in its innards, despite this danger. My grandfather lived his entire life in a favela called Acari in the North of Rio, and I used to go there visit him. About 50 milles distant from Copacabana, Acari is a shit place with an IDH lower than some poor countries in Africa. But, as described in The Economist article, Acari too has a very active economy. You can find all sort of businesses in there. Of course, I'm not talking about millions of dollars businesses, but there's an interesting cash flow running inside of the favela. However it's not enough to make people rich. The life condition in favela are really horrible. Besides all that has been said here, I have to add on point that hasn't been mentioned: Favela are extremely noisy places... It's pretty common bars playing music incredible loud. Besides that, some favelas organise parties called 'baile funks'. These parties have their pros and cons: PROS - people coming from outside (many spend money buying drinks, food, cigarettes, etc) - it promotes some fun for young people living in the favela CONS - These partie are often organised by drug dealers... it attracts some drug adds to the location, and cocaine, crack, etc run freely - The music in the 'bailes' uses to be extremely loud. As it doesn't have acoustic protection the entire favela don't sleep during those parties which may go through an entire week-end. It very bad for those who have to wake up to go work. My advice, do not visit favelas... The vast majority of its population, I'd say more than 99,9% of its habitants are honest people, but this 0,1% and their war with police and other drug dealers represent a real danger for your life.
- mocha_nate 7y agoThis census is fantastic. There is a ton of work to be done throughout the world in these informal communities/economies. Documentation, data collection, analysis... Also, just an observation, I noticed a lot of these comments here are tangential to the article.