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AGPL is vulnerable to certain workarounds in the same way that GPL was. The CC class of non-commercial licenses might be more applicable, but that may harm ado

AGPL is vulnerable to certain workarounds in the same way that GPL was. The CC class of non-commercial licenses might be more applicable, but that may harm adoption. EDIT: honestly not sure why this is so heavily downvoted (-7 as of the edit), the whole point of SSPL and other licenses is to address the "workarounds" that Amazon and others have discovered in AGPL

boramalper 7y ago
I’m not sure if CC is meant for software either (except for CC0 perhaps). For instance, does non-commercial mean (1) you cannot use [the output of] the program for any commercial purposes, or does it mean (2) you cannot sell the program itself (and its derivatives). The difference is subtle but AGPL permits (1) whilst practically forbidding (2) by enforcing copyleft; hence it fits the OSS criteria whereas CC NC wouldn’t if both (1) and (2) are true.
- detaro 7y ago
  Creative Commons themselves say that CC licenses (outside CC0) are not designed and not recommended for software.
AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
Would you mind elaborating on that? I am interested in a super-copyleft license for my next project and thought that AGPL was the "best" option out there. In what ways can it be bypassed?
- Reelin 7y ago
  Check mongoDB's SSPL FAQ (https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license/faq#when-to-use https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license...). As far as I'm concerned, SSPL is superior to AGPL in that it catches all the bits that make your software actually work, forcing you to include them as part of the offering. I honestly don't understand the apparent objection to referring to a license with such a clause as open source - all it does is close a (major imo) loophole.
  - detaro 7y ago
    > “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available.” So I can't run a service for it on VPS at a hosting provider, because I can not share the source to the backup system, hypervisor and load-balancer they use? Are firmware-blobs in my kernel-drivers ok? That seems extremely open and far-reaching, to the point that one could argue that it clearly is intended to forbid offerings as a service, even if it pretends not to. EDIT: after looking up details about the "comical debate" (quote article), that indeed appears to have been one of the arguments. Not surprising the article badmouths the OSI, but doesn't actually engage with or even dare mention their arguments.
    - Reelin 7y ago
      Upon rereading the bit you quoted, I agree that could be an issue. I had initially misinterpreted "all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available" to mean it was limited to any essential supporting bits you had implemented that might have otherwise been made proprietary (much to the detriment of a user trying to actually use the source code you provided). It does seem to be overreaching, but I also maintain that the AGPL has a major loophole as things currently stand. Edit: From the sibling comment, it seems that SSPLv2 tries to address this.
  - ryukafalz 7y ago
    From my reading of SSPL v1, it would seem extremely difficult to use in concert with other free software; it requires you to distribute all software[0] you're using to run your service under the SSPL. The trouble is, you can't do that if you're using any other software in your environment that's licensed under another copyleft license such as the GPL. Does this apply all the way down to the Linux kernel? Who knows! SSPL v2 appears to be an attempt to correct this[1], by explicitly excluding system components and allowing other FSF/OSI approved licenses if you're unable to release something under the SSPL yourself. But note that not even MongoDB, the project that the SSPL came from, is using v2 at the moment. The GPL and AGPL have been around longer and have much more of a community behind them, and both versions of the SSPL are incompatible with them. At least for the time being, I'm inclined to stick with the AGPL for network services, because I like having access to all the GPL/AGPL code out there. Maybe someday I'll take a look at SSPL v2; I wouldn't touch SSPL v1 with a 10-foot pole. [0] "all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software" [1] http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2018-November/003836.html http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.o...
- verisimilitudes 7y ago
  Don't be fooled. I use the AGPLv3 for almost all of my software because it's the strongest copyleft license currently available. Apparently, the only reason the AGPLv3 and GPLv3 are different is because of public outrage from some groups, but there's no disadvantages to use the AGPLv3 over the GPLv3 and I recommend it. What is your project? I'd like to know, if you're willing to tell.
- imtringued 7y ago
  Someone with more money than you can do a proprietary clean room reimplementation.
  - vorg 7y ago
    @AnaniasAnanas: And someone with less money than you can use your software source code "as a reference" when writing their own open source reimplementation. They won't put your name in the copyright notice because they didn't use any of your code, they only used your code "as a reference" when writing their own.
  - AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
    So I will force them to waste money compared to if I used a more permissive license? Sounds good. Plus I could offer proprietary licenses this way.
- kemitchell 7y ago
  https://paritylicense.com/ https://paritylicense.com/
  - AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
    That's cool and all but it does not seem any more copyleft than AGPL, in fact it seems even less copyleft than GPLv3 as it lacks the Tivoization/drm/etc clauses.
yarrel 7y ago
Please don't use the (awesome) CC licenses for software - https://creativecommons.org/faq/#can-i-apply-a-creative-commons-license-to-software https://creativecommons.org/faq/#can-i-apply-a-creative-comm...

boramalper 7y ago

I’m not sure if CC is meant for software either (except for CC0 perhaps). For instance, does non-commercial mean (1) you cannot use [the output of] the program for any commercial purposes, or does it mean (2) you cannot sell the program itself (and its derivatives). The difference is subtle but AGPL permits (1) whilst practically forbidding (2) by enforcing copyleft; hence it fits the OSS criteria whereas CC NC wouldn’t if both (1) and (2) are true.

detaro 7y ago
Creative Commons themselves say that CC licenses (outside CC0) are not designed and not recommended for software.

AnaniasAnanas 7y ago

Would you mind elaborating on that? I am interested in a super-copyleft license for my next project and thought that AGPL was the "best" option out there. In what ways can it be bypassed?

Reelin 7y ago
Check mongoDB's SSPL FAQ (https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license/faq#when-to-use https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license...). As far as I'm concerned, SSPL is superior to AGPL in that it catches all the bits that make your software actually work, forcing you to include them as part of the offering. I honestly don't understand the apparent objection to referring to a license with such a clause as open source - all it does is close a (major imo) loophole.
- detaro 7y ago
  > “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available.” So I can't run a service for it on VPS at a hosting provider, because I can not share the source to the backup system, hypervisor and load-balancer they use? Are firmware-blobs in my kernel-drivers ok? That seems extremely open and far-reaching, to the point that one could argue that it clearly is intended to forbid offerings as a service, even if it pretends not to. EDIT: after looking up details about the "comical debate" (quote article), that indeed appears to have been one of the arguments. Not surprising the article badmouths the OSI, but doesn't actually engage with or even dare mention their arguments.
  - Reelin 7y ago
    Upon rereading the bit you quoted, I agree that could be an issue. I had initially misinterpreted "all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available" to mean it was limited to any essential supporting bits you had implemented that might have otherwise been made proprietary (much to the detriment of a user trying to actually use the source code you provided). It does seem to be overreaching, but I also maintain that the AGPL has a major loophole as things currently stand. Edit: From the sibling comment, it seems that SSPLv2 tries to address this.
- ryukafalz 7y ago
  From my reading of SSPL v1, it would seem extremely difficult to use in concert with other free software; it requires you to distribute all software[0] you're using to run your service under the SSPL. The trouble is, you can't do that if you're using any other software in your environment that's licensed under another copyleft license such as the GPL. Does this apply all the way down to the Linux kernel? Who knows! SSPL v2 appears to be an attempt to correct this[1], by explicitly excluding system components and allowing other FSF/OSI approved licenses if you're unable to release something under the SSPL yourself. But note that not even MongoDB, the project that the SSPL came from, is using v2 at the moment. The GPL and AGPL have been around longer and have much more of a community behind them, and both versions of the SSPL are incompatible with them. At least for the time being, I'm inclined to stick with the AGPL for network services, because I like having access to all the GPL/AGPL code out there. Maybe someday I'll take a look at SSPL v2; I wouldn't touch SSPL v1 with a 10-foot pole. [0] "all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software" [1] http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2018-November/003836.html http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.o...
verisimilitudes 7y ago
Don't be fooled. I use the AGPLv3 for almost all of my software because it's the strongest copyleft license currently available. Apparently, the only reason the AGPLv3 and GPLv3 are different is because of public outrage from some groups, but there's no disadvantages to use the AGPLv3 over the GPLv3 and I recommend it. What is your project? I'd like to know, if you're willing to tell.
imtringued 7y ago
Someone with more money than you can do a proprietary clean room reimplementation.
- vorg 7y ago
  @AnaniasAnanas: And someone with less money than you can use your software source code "as a reference" when writing their own open source reimplementation. They won't put your name in the copyright notice because they didn't use any of your code, they only used your code "as a reference" when writing their own.
- AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
  So I will force them to waste money compared to if I used a more permissive license? Sounds good. Plus I could offer proprietary licenses this way.
kemitchell 7y ago
https://paritylicense.com/ https://paritylicense.com/
- AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
  That's cool and all but it does not seem any more copyleft than AGPL, in fact it seems even less copyleft than GPLv3 as it lacks the Tivoization/drm/etc clauses.

yarrel 7y ago

Please don't use the (awesome) CC licenses for software - https://creativecommons.org/faq/#can-i-apply-a-creative-commons-license-to-software https://creativecommons.org/faq/#can-i-apply-a-creative-comm...