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Why is it 'premature' brain development? This seems to have picked a particular lens to interpret the results. I grew up in a European country and moved to a d

Why is it 'premature' brain development? This seems to have picked a particular lens to interpret the results. I grew up in a European country and moved to a developed western nation at age 10. The first few years of school were a really jarring experience because the kids in my class were infantile and mentally under-developed compared to where I came from. This was also reflected in a huge gap in curriculum, we were covering skills that were taught 2-3 years earlier where I came from. Parents in western nations infantalise their children and prevent them from developing autonomy/responsibility for far too long. It's even reflected in the law, 10 year old me was shocked to learn that it's illegal to leave children under 12 unattended at home. A different interpretation of the same findings is 'lack of adversity causes delayed brain development'.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
>it's illegal to leave children under 12 unattended at home W-what? I remember babysitting my 6 year old brother since the age of 8 while my parents were working.
Sharlin 7y ago
> It's even reflected in the law, 10 year old me was shocked to learn that it's illegal to leave children under 12 unattended at home. That certainly sounds ridiculous, speaking as someone born and raised in a developed western nation.
- kuzehanka 7y ago
  "If a person who has the lawful care or charge of a child under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time without making reasonable provision for the supervision and care of the child commits a misdemeanour. Maximum penalty – 3 years imprisonment." Legislation: Queensland Criminal Code Act 1899 (QLD) - Section 364A
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    A misdemeanour may net you a maximum 3 years imprisonment? That's harsh. Of course, the salient part is …unreasonable time without making reasonable provision… Is there precedent on what "unreasonable time" might constitute? In general, of course, it depends entirely on the child and their mental and emotional maturity.
    - kingkawn 7y ago
      legal terminology has understood definitions within the particular system’s historical precedent
      - pteraspidomorph 7y ago
        Only in common law countries. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law (Obviously, you're still correct if we're talking about Queensland.)
      - Sharlin 7y ago
        Yes, this is why I was wondering about precedent. And what the sibling commenter said.
    - candiodari 7y ago
      And there's the detail that of course any such punishment will make the problem infinitely worse. Why are laws always written from the point of view that the state is all-powerful, that it can and will solve whatever problem such a law creates ? It just won't. This sounds, on the surface like it will improve kids' lives, but it will make quite a few kids' lives a LOT worse once you take into account that there's nothing the the state can do here. It cannot replace parents it takes away (nor would kids accept those new parents). (Before you say "but child services/adoption/foster care", read about how well kids are supervised there. Foster care is a LOT worse for kids than being ignored at home)
      - whatshisface 7y ago
sonnyblarney 7y ago
"I grew up in a European country and moved to a developed western nation at age 10. " European countries are 'Western nations'.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
  op could've meant Eastern Europe.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    OP could also have meant he went from a private Russian funded private school for elites to a school for disadvantaged children (such as children with poor parents or recently immigrated) in a ghetto like neighborhood. It'd still be another single data point though. Edit: just another variation of "children these days" and "when I was young we used to go to school on foot and swim through the river"
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    Eastern European nations are 'Western Nations'. My down-voters are utterly wrong. 'The Western World' is a term derived from antiquity, in which 'the middle east' is at the centre, East would be China etc. In modern terms, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand would be considered Wester nations.
    - detaro 7y ago
      The poster quite possibly was using the cold war definition of "west" (which is likely way more relevant to the comparison they are making), not the antiquity one.
      - tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
        Yep. In terms of adversity, there's a clear enough divide between western and eastern Europe that it fits the comparison.
Alex3917 7y ago
> A different interpretation of the same findings is 'lack of adversity causes delayed brain development'. Because in most species, reproducing takes a lot of effort so organisms don't get ready to reproduce until the last possible moment. E.g. fungi don't produce mushrooms the first couple years they're in a new pile of woodchips even though there is more than enough mycelium already, it's not until there are only a couple more years of woodchips left that they will produce mushrooms.
Reedx 7y ago
Right, that hasn't done kids any favors. Parents who treat their children as if they are fragile (for example, by keeping them away from dirt and potential allergens, such as peanuts) are depriving their children’s immature immune systems of the learning experiences those systems need to develop their maximum protective capacity. Children’s social and emotional abilities are as antifragile as their immune systems. If we overprotect kids and keep them “safe” from unpleasant social situations and negative emotions, we deprive them of the challenges and opportunities for skill-building they need to grow strong. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/10/by-mollycoddling-our-children-were-fuelling-mental-illness-in-teenagers https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/10/by-mol...
saulrh 7y ago
Why is it 'premature' brain development? This seems to have picked a particular lens to interpret the results. From TFA: The researchers found specific associations of SES and TSE with psychiatric symptoms, cognitive performance, and several brain structure abnormalities. We know that these brains are developing prematurely rather than differently because they are flat-out worse. Adversity is not the same as meaning or experience. I'm sure that lack of meaning causes problems, and we do need to provide opportunity for growth, but that's not what the article is talking about. Lack of trauma or chronic stress permits the brain to develop the way it evolved to, and brains that develop the way they evolved to are more performant, more stable, and inclined toward more effective habits and behaviors.
SmokeGS 7y ago
I have been thinking abou this for a long time. Thanks for putting it out there. It seemed that int the domestic crop of people, the US lags behind some/most places in the maturity department.
wolfspider 7y ago
Kids growing up in poverty just have to grow up faster and those outcomes are a strain on their mental health. Consider they are born with a mission to “save the whole family” early on without the tools to do it. That is much more pressure than just going to school every day if they are even privileged enough to go to school. That may sound shocking but with technology (online correspondence classes) and looser “home schooling” laws you now have a generation of kids which just didn’t receive education at all. Schools are more strict towards social behavior and I have met more young people that tell me they were expelled from school at the age of 13 than ever before. So, how do you “save the family” now? I truly wish these kids got the second chances I received growing up to redeem themselves but they don’t. The resulting survival mechanisms they are forced into really blur the lines of wrong and right. It’s really more than I can sum up in a single comment but something is going to need to be done here in the US about this.
RandomInteger4 7y ago
Premature brain development likely means that the pruning stage of brain development occurred too early and too rapidly. That or the brain formed too many connections too rapidly before the pruning stage. Either way, the very structure of the brain is borked. Not a neuroscientist though so take my input with a grain of salt.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

layoutIfNeeded 7y ago

>it's illegal to leave children under 12 unattended at home W-what? I remember babysitting my 6 year old brother since the age of 8 while my parents were working.

Sharlin 7y ago

> It's even reflected in the law, 10 year old me was shocked to learn that it's illegal to leave children under 12 unattended at home. That certainly sounds ridiculous, speaking as someone born and raised in a developed western nation.

kuzehanka 7y ago
"If a person who has the lawful care or charge of a child under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time without making reasonable provision for the supervision and care of the child commits a misdemeanour. Maximum penalty – 3 years imprisonment." Legislation: Queensland Criminal Code Act 1899 (QLD) - Section 364A
- Sharlin 7y ago
  A misdemeanour may net you a maximum 3 years imprisonment? That's harsh. Of course, the salient part is …unreasonable time without making reasonable provision… Is there precedent on what "unreasonable time" might constitute? In general, of course, it depends entirely on the child and their mental and emotional maturity.
  - kingkawn 7y ago
    legal terminology has understood definitions within the particular system’s historical precedent
    - pteraspidomorph 7y ago
      Only in common law countries. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law (Obviously, you're still correct if we're talking about Queensland.)
    - Sharlin 7y ago
      Yes, this is why I was wondering about precedent. And what the sibling commenter said.
  - candiodari 7y ago
    And there's the detail that of course any such punishment will make the problem infinitely worse. Why are laws always written from the point of view that the state is all-powerful, that it can and will solve whatever problem such a law creates ? It just won't. This sounds, on the surface like it will improve kids' lives, but it will make quite a few kids' lives a LOT worse once you take into account that there's nothing the the state can do here. It cannot replace parents it takes away (nor would kids accept those new parents). (Before you say "but child services/adoption/foster care", read about how well kids are supervised there. Foster care is a LOT worse for kids than being ignored at home)
    - whatshisface 7y ago

sonnyblarney 7y ago

"I grew up in a European country and moved to a developed western nation at age 10. " European countries are 'Western nations'.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
op could've meant Eastern Europe.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  OP could also have meant he went from a private Russian funded private school for elites to a school for disadvantaged children (such as children with poor parents or recently immigrated) in a ghetto like neighborhood. It'd still be another single data point though. Edit: just another variation of "children these days" and "when I was young we used to go to school on foot and swim through the river"
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  Eastern European nations are 'Western Nations'. My down-voters are utterly wrong. 'The Western World' is a term derived from antiquity, in which 'the middle east' is at the centre, East would be China etc. In modern terms, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand would be considered Wester nations.
  - detaro 7y ago
    The poster quite possibly was using the cold war definition of "west" (which is likely way more relevant to the comparison they are making), not the antiquity one.
    - tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
      Yep. In terms of adversity, there's a clear enough divide between western and eastern Europe that it fits the comparison.

Alex3917 7y ago

> A different interpretation of the same findings is 'lack of adversity causes delayed brain development'. Because in most species, reproducing takes a lot of effort so organisms don't get ready to reproduce until the last possible moment. E.g. fungi don't produce mushrooms the first couple years they're in a new pile of woodchips even though there is more than enough mycelium already, it's not until there are only a couple more years of woodchips left that they will produce mushrooms.

Reedx 7y ago

Right, that hasn't done kids any favors. Parents who treat their children as if they are fragile (for example, by keeping them away from dirt and potential allergens, such as peanuts) are depriving their children’s immature immune systems of the learning experiences those systems need to develop their maximum protective capacity. Children’s social and emotional abilities are as antifragile as their immune systems. If we overprotect kids and keep them “safe” from unpleasant social situations and negative emotions, we deprive them of the challenges and opportunities for skill-building they need to grow strong. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/10/by-mollycoddling-our-children-were-fuelling-mental-illness-in-teenagers https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/10/by-mol...

saulrh 7y ago

Why is it 'premature' brain development? This seems to have picked a particular lens to interpret the results. From TFA: The researchers found specific associations of SES and TSE with psychiatric symptoms, cognitive performance, and several brain structure abnormalities. We know that these brains are developing prematurely rather than differently because they are flat-out worse. Adversity is not the same as meaning or experience. I'm sure that lack of meaning causes problems, and we do need to provide opportunity for growth, but that's not what the article is talking about. Lack of trauma or chronic stress permits the brain to develop the way it evolved to, and brains that develop the way they evolved to are more performant, more stable, and inclined toward more effective habits and behaviors.

SmokeGS 7y ago

I have been thinking abou this for a long time. Thanks for putting it out there. It seemed that int the domestic crop of people, the US lags behind some/most places in the maturity department.

wolfspider 7y ago

Kids growing up in poverty just have to grow up faster and those outcomes are a strain on their mental health. Consider they are born with a mission to “save the whole family” early on without the tools to do it. That is much more pressure than just going to school every day if they are even privileged enough to go to school. That may sound shocking but with technology (online correspondence classes) and looser “home schooling” laws you now have a generation of kids which just didn’t receive education at all. Schools are more strict towards social behavior and I have met more young people that tell me they were expelled from school at the age of 13 than ever before. So, how do you “save the family” now? I truly wish these kids got the second chances I received growing up to redeem themselves but they don’t. The resulting survival mechanisms they are forced into really blur the lines of wrong and right. It’s really more than I can sum up in a single comment but something is going to need to be done here in the US about this.

RandomInteger4 7y ago

Premature brain development likely means that the pruning stage of brain development occurred too early and too rapidly. That or the brain formed too many connections too rapidly before the pruning stage. Either way, the very structure of the brain is borked. Not a neuroscientist though so take my input with a grain of salt.