7 ms·

Norway's capital is the latest city to declare war on cars

59 points by edward 7y ago

vinni2 7y ago
What bothers me is the hypocrisy of Norway. On the one hand they wage war against cars and fossil fuels domestically. On the other hand they refuse to stop exploring new oil deposits or reduce oil production and exports. They are not bothered with all this oil burnt elsewhere. They are doing very little about that.
- dropofwill 7y ago
  Norway isn’t a monolith. Oslo city councilors don’t have any control over oil production/exports.
  - vinni2 7y ago
    There are nation wide policies in Norway promoting green energy for example, they give incentives to electricity cars. There are policies in other cities too which is adding tolls and expensive parking etc. to discourage use of cars. Which is great but that is nothing compared to all the oil that is exported. I get that they can’t immediately stop producing oil. but they are also not slowing and also exploring new deposits.
- SJetKaran 7y ago
  That is the right way to do things. If Norway can export oil to India, they should. Not all countries can switch away from oil as easily, and countries should let other countries to switch on their own cost and time.
  - vinni2 7y ago
    I know not all countries can switch from oil easily. So I am not asking Norway to stop extracting oil together. But what I am concerned is that Norway is expanding oil exploration in the Arctic [0]. Which is a perfect example of hypocrisy. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-oil-idUSKCN1QV1OX https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-oil-idUSKCN1QV1OX
mac_was 7y ago
What are we going to do with millions of people who will loose jobs in the automotive industry? Surely they will if we ban cars!
spacegod 7y ago
Declare war on landlords instead. Support a commercial land value tax instead of a property tax.
- koala_man 7y ago
  I don't follow. How does this help with pollution and congestion?
  - spacegod 7y ago
    You end up with denser development.
  - himlion 7y ago
    Yes it could if implemented properly, because land would get allocated more efficiently. For example more high rises in central locations so people could stay closer to their work. A good subreddit devoted to this subject is /r/georgism.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- semi-extrinsic 7y ago
  If you are talking about landlords as in people who own apartment buildings, Norway has had a war on those for decades, primarily via making the interest paid on your mortgage being tax deductible. Even for people below the official poverty line, owning your apartment is cheaper than renting, and there is not really the concept of a subprime mortgage, you get a good interest rate. To wit, home ownership rate is 83%. The US and the UK are around 65%.
pjc50 7y ago
Clickbait title, register-walled article. Not sure it's even new news: https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2165462/drivers-norways-capital-oslo-see-red-over-citys-green-war-cars https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2165462/drive... https://www.fastcompany.com/90294948/what-happened-when-oslo-decided-to-make-its-downtown-basically-car-free https://www.fastcompany.com/90294948/what-happened-when-oslo...
kfk 7y ago
In Denmark and Germany public transportation is not always that good, they rely heavily on bikes. For instance in Madrid you can rely 100% on a nice, on time, metro system. I hope it’s different in Norway and that they also have public transport that can compete with cars. Of course bikes are good, but not all of us are ready to bike 20-30 mins to work every day in the snow during winter, or hot days during summer.
- atoav 7y ago
  I ride the bike all year around, except for some times in the summer precisely because the subways tend to be full in winter. My commute takes 17min by bike and 26 by subway, due to the stops, during rush hour. The same journey takes well over 50 min with car during that time. i don’t take the bike over the subway because the subway is bad I take it because it is the fastest way to get there.
- vinni2 7y ago
  > I hope it’s different in Norway and that they also have public transport that can compete with cars. I know several people living in Oslo even with 3 kids not needing a car. But on the other hand this is only true for Oslo in Norway. Every other city/town public transport sucks. Cars are a must in all other cities.
- yostrovs 7y ago
  It's probably irrelevant how good public transport is. It's more about the higher ups of society that are living in the city center not wanting their space being taken up by the bridge and tunnel crowd.
- eitland 7y ago
  The tubes are good in Oslo. Runs like clockwork as far as I have seen. Buses are ok, not always according to schedule but so frequent during the day it hardly matters to me. Trains are a bit of both: - most regional ones are brand new - the other aren't to bad either: old fashioned but clean and well maintained. In fact a number of commuters prefer the older ones. - they are expensive (if you teamed up with three others you'd finance a Tesla in 10 years I guess. The downside is you can't expect everyone to go to work and home at the exact same time every day or even stay in their job for ten years) - while they might be reasonably precise for weeks on end it is never a surprise when they are delayed. - information is poor (my guess is because they have to pay alternative transport if they are more than 30 minutes delayed so they'll try to avoid announcing delays as long as possible. Again this is just my guess.) - the commuter trains are always crowded in the Oslo area. Sometimes they are so crowded you literally cannot move around. Having seen and read about stadium fires and other disasters involving crowds I wonder how this is even allowed.
tomglynch 7y ago
"war on cars" ? It's returning the streets to the people! > Late last year, the government removed some 700 parking spaces from the city centre, replacing them with benches, bicycle docks and more pavement. Great! The average parking space is 2*6 metres, so they've regained 8,400 sqm of public space!
- koodiorja 7y ago
  Good for people who find the idea of spending their free time in an ugly concrete jungle enjoyable, bad for everyone else. I would rather cut my salary half than move to a city with more than 200k people.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    So stay in a small town. But those of us living in larger towns, with jobs, families, interests, obligations and involvement there, would like a humane living space too. Taking back the public space so thoughtlessly set aside for cars is a part of this.
    - imtringued 7y ago
      I'd like to see that town with 199999 residents.
    - koodiorja 7y ago
      Unfortunately working in a small town might not be an option for everyone in the current job market. Due to that any action that makes private motoring more difficult should only happen with equal investment on public transport connections from outside the city. Nobody should be forced to live in a large city simply because all the jobs are there.
  - ocschwar 7y ago
    5 paces out of Oslo city limits and you're surrounded by woodlots and farming. Easy to reach that line by public transit.
- 7y ago
kmlx 7y ago
> Madrid could become first European city to scrap low-emissions zone > Region’s likely new president Isabel Díaz Ayuso believes congestion is part of city’s cultural identity https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/31/madrid-set-to-end-clean-air-project-in-rightwing-power-switch https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/31/madrid-set-to... you win some, you lose some.
- willio58 7y ago
  Currently in Spain for a month vacation and I was considering if I should visit Madrid.. this makes me have little interest.
  - heraclius 7y ago
    The PP aren’t even in power yet and when they are they won’t be able to implement it instantly. If you are in Spain at the moment this shouldn’t put you off.
  - aivisol 7y ago
    Are you not going to visit Madrid only because of views of its regional politicians or you were hoping the number of cars on the streets will be significantly reduced by time you get there? Just curious.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
    As a Spaniard, I had become reconciled with Madrid in the last years, I visit frequently it has really improved a lot. But now it's likely to become a dirty, congested den of corruption again, I don't think I will keep visiting it. Note that the regression is still not implemented, so you can still go and enjoy it before they ruin it.
kumarvvr 7y ago
Off topic : Publication should really stop using such extreme expressions for what is essentially simple progressive policies. "War on cars" really? Are they banning cars from ever entering the capital? The whole thing is more like "Govt. is actively discouraging usage of cars"
- Thlom 7y ago
  Ongoing since last election 4 years ago which gave the Green Party and the left control over the city for the first time in 2 decades. Just visited Oslo the first time in years last week, and the city was so much more enjoyable with less cars on the streets. New election this autumn, fingers crossed.
neonate 7y ago
http://archive.is/FsDgN http://archive.is/FsDgN
atemerev 7y ago
OK, will not go there. I love cars and driving. It is commuting that creates congestion problems.
- elygre 7y ago
  That’s ok. You can go elsewhere.
- truckerbill 7y ago
  Thinking in terms of 'I' is part of the problem.
  - rtmaximo 7y ago
    Found the groupthinker. Joking aside, what is the alternative you propose? Especially in view of human nature
    - truckerbill 7y ago
      'Is what I view as a necessity really a luxury? And what impact does it have on my community and the environment as a whole?'
      - atemerev 7y ago
        Not a luxury, neither a necessity, just a nice affordable thing to have that greatly improves nearly everybody’s quality of life, especially if you have children.
- codetrotter 7y ago
  You don't need a car in Oslo though. Provided you weren't planning on going there by car. In fact bringing a car to Oslo is mostly just bringing yourself more trouble. It's not a big city so you can get to almost "anywhere" in Oslo by foot. Or you can take the bus or the tram or the subway, depending on where you are going. Whereas with a car you will struggle to find parking and there are multiple one-way streets in the very center. And also there are toll stations if you go across the boundary between the outer parts of the city and the rest of the world outside of it. That being said, I don't know you so of course I don't known how important cars and driving is to you. But in general I would recommend not bringing a car to Oslo unless you have a good reason to bring it. Even if you have a lot of luggage you should have no significant problem transporting it on the train from the airport outside of Oslo on the train and then bring it to the hotel or wherever you are staying by jumping on to a bus for example.

59 points by edward 7y ago

What bothers me is the hypocrisy of Norway. On the one hand they wage war against cars and fossil fuels domestically. On the other hand they refuse to stop exploring new oil deposits or reduce oil production and exports. They are not bothered with all this oil burnt elsewhere. They are doing very little about that.

dropofwill 7y ago
Norway isn’t a monolith. Oslo city councilors don’t have any control over oil production/exports.
- vinni2 7y ago
  There are nation wide policies in Norway promoting green energy for example, they give incentives to electricity cars. There are policies in other cities too which is adding tolls and expensive parking etc. to discourage use of cars. Which is great but that is nothing compared to all the oil that is exported. I get that they can’t immediately stop producing oil. but they are also not slowing and also exploring new deposits.
SJetKaran 7y ago
That is the right way to do things. If Norway can export oil to India, they should. Not all countries can switch away from oil as easily, and countries should let other countries to switch on their own cost and time.
- vinni2 7y ago
  I know not all countries can switch from oil easily. So I am not asking Norway to stop extracting oil together. But what I am concerned is that Norway is expanding oil exploration in the Arctic [0]. Which is a perfect example of hypocrisy. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-oil-idUSKCN1QV1OX https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-oil-idUSKCN1QV1OX

mac_was 7y ago

What are we going to do with millions of people who will loose jobs in the automotive industry? Surely they will if we ban cars!

spacegod 7y ago

Declare war on landlords instead. Support a commercial land value tax instead of a property tax.

koala_man 7y ago
I don't follow. How does this help with pollution and congestion?
- spacegod 7y ago
  You end up with denser development.
- himlion 7y ago
  Yes it could if implemented properly, because land would get allocated more efficiently. For example more high rises in central locations so people could stay closer to their work. A good subreddit devoted to this subject is /r/georgism.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
semi-extrinsic 7y ago
If you are talking about landlords as in people who own apartment buildings, Norway has had a war on those for decades, primarily via making the interest paid on your mortgage being tax deductible. Even for people below the official poverty line, owning your apartment is cheaper than renting, and there is not really the concept of a subprime mortgage, you get a good interest rate. To wit, home ownership rate is 83%. The US and the UK are around 65%.

pjc50 7y ago

Clickbait title, register-walled article. Not sure it's even new news: https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2165462/drivers-norways-capital-oslo-see-red-over-citys-green-war-cars https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2165462/drive... https://www.fastcompany.com/90294948/what-happened-when-oslo-decided-to-make-its-downtown-basically-car-free https://www.fastcompany.com/90294948/what-happened-when-oslo...

kfk 7y ago

In Denmark and Germany public transportation is not always that good, they rely heavily on bikes. For instance in Madrid you can rely 100% on a nice, on time, metro system. I hope it’s different in Norway and that they also have public transport that can compete with cars. Of course bikes are good, but not all of us are ready to bike 20-30 mins to work every day in the snow during winter, or hot days during summer.

atoav 7y ago
I ride the bike all year around, except for some times in the summer precisely because the subways tend to be full in winter. My commute takes 17min by bike and 26 by subway, due to the stops, during rush hour. The same journey takes well over 50 min with car during that time. i don’t take the bike over the subway because the subway is bad I take it because it is the fastest way to get there.
vinni2 7y ago
> I hope it’s different in Norway and that they also have public transport that can compete with cars. I know several people living in Oslo even with 3 kids not needing a car. But on the other hand this is only true for Oslo in Norway. Every other city/town public transport sucks. Cars are a must in all other cities.
yostrovs 7y ago
It's probably irrelevant how good public transport is. It's more about the higher ups of society that are living in the city center not wanting their space being taken up by the bridge and tunnel crowd.
eitland 7y ago
The tubes are good in Oslo. Runs like clockwork as far as I have seen. Buses are ok, not always according to schedule but so frequent during the day it hardly matters to me. Trains are a bit of both: - most regional ones are brand new - the other aren't to bad either: old fashioned but clean and well maintained. In fact a number of commuters prefer the older ones. - they are expensive (if you teamed up with three others you'd finance a Tesla in 10 years I guess. The downside is you can't expect everyone to go to work and home at the exact same time every day or even stay in their job for ten years) - while they might be reasonably precise for weeks on end it is never a surprise when they are delayed. - information is poor (my guess is because they have to pay alternative transport if they are more than 30 minutes delayed so they'll try to avoid announcing delays as long as possible. Again this is just my guess.) - the commuter trains are always crowded in the Oslo area. Sometimes they are so crowded you literally cannot move around. Having seen and read about stadium fires and other disasters involving crowds I wonder how this is even allowed.

tomglynch 7y ago

"war on cars" ? It's returning the streets to the people! > Late last year, the government removed some 700 parking spaces from the city centre, replacing them with benches, bicycle docks and more pavement. Great! The average parking space is 2*6 metres, so they've regained 8,400 sqm of public space!

koodiorja 7y ago
Good for people who find the idea of spending their free time in an ugly concrete jungle enjoyable, bad for everyone else. I would rather cut my salary half than move to a city with more than 200k people.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  So stay in a small town. But those of us living in larger towns, with jobs, families, interests, obligations and involvement there, would like a humane living space too. Taking back the public space so thoughtlessly set aside for cars is a part of this.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    I'd like to see that town with 199999 residents.
  - koodiorja 7y ago
    Unfortunately working in a small town might not be an option for everyone in the current job market. Due to that any action that makes private motoring more difficult should only happen with equal investment on public transport connections from outside the city. Nobody should be forced to live in a large city simply because all the jobs are there.
- ocschwar 7y ago
  5 paces out of Oslo city limits and you're surrounded by woodlots and farming. Easy to reach that line by public transit.
7y ago

kmlx 7y ago

> Madrid could become first European city to scrap low-emissions zone > Region’s likely new president Isabel Díaz Ayuso believes congestion is part of city’s cultural identity https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/31/madrid-set-to-end-clean-air-project-in-rightwing-power-switch https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/31/madrid-set-to... you win some, you lose some.

willio58 7y ago
Currently in Spain for a month vacation and I was considering if I should visit Madrid.. this makes me have little interest.
- heraclius 7y ago
  The PP aren’t even in power yet and when they are they won’t be able to implement it instantly. If you are in Spain at the moment this shouldn’t put you off.
- aivisol 7y ago
  Are you not going to visit Madrid only because of views of its regional politicians or you were hoping the number of cars on the streets will be significantly reduced by time you get there? Just curious.
- Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
  As a Spaniard, I had become reconciled with Madrid in the last years, I visit frequently it has really improved a lot. But now it's likely to become a dirty, congested den of corruption again, I don't think I will keep visiting it. Note that the regression is still not implemented, so you can still go and enjoy it before they ruin it.

kumarvvr 7y ago

Off topic : Publication should really stop using such extreme expressions for what is essentially simple progressive policies. "War on cars" really? Are they banning cars from ever entering the capital? The whole thing is more like "Govt. is actively discouraging usage of cars"

Thlom 7y ago
Ongoing since last election 4 years ago which gave the Green Party and the left control over the city for the first time in 2 decades. Just visited Oslo the first time in years last week, and the city was so much more enjoyable with less cars on the streets. New election this autumn, fingers crossed.

neonate 7y ago

http://archive.is/FsDgN http://archive.is/FsDgN

atemerev 7y ago

OK, will not go there. I love cars and driving. It is commuting that creates congestion problems.

elygre 7y ago
That’s ok. You can go elsewhere.
truckerbill 7y ago
Thinking in terms of 'I' is part of the problem.
- rtmaximo 7y ago
  Found the groupthinker. Joking aside, what is the alternative you propose? Especially in view of human nature
  - truckerbill 7y ago
    'Is what I view as a necessity really a luxury? And what impact does it have on my community and the environment as a whole?'
    - atemerev 7y ago
      Not a luxury, neither a necessity, just a nice affordable thing to have that greatly improves nearly everybody’s quality of life, especially if you have children.
codetrotter 7y ago
You don't need a car in Oslo though. Provided you weren't planning on going there by car. In fact bringing a car to Oslo is mostly just bringing yourself more trouble. It's not a big city so you can get to almost "anywhere" in Oslo by foot. Or you can take the bus or the tram or the subway, depending on where you are going. Whereas with a car you will struggle to find parking and there are multiple one-way streets in the very center. And also there are toll stations if you go across the boundary between the outer parts of the city and the rest of the world outside of it. That being said, I don't know you so of course I don't known how important cars and driving is to you. But in general I would recommend not bringing a car to Oslo unless you have a good reason to bring it. Even if you have a lot of luggage you should have no significant problem transporting it on the train from the airport outside of Oslo on the train and then bring it to the hotel or wherever you are staying by jumping on to a bus for example.