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New Social Media Question on DS-160 and DS-260 Visa Applications

138 points by throwmex 7y ago

swiley 7y ago
It would have been helpful to get the bill number so we could know who voted for it... Oh, wait, the president just declared that this is the way it is (justified by "terrorism" of course.) I thought we had rules.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  US government operates on a number of bases -- not all rules are based on legislation. Generally, by order pf precedent; Constitution, case law, legislation (US Code), regulation (Code of Federal Regulations), and executive orders. Plus others, such as court procedure, prosecutorial discretion, and more. LLI's resources at Cornell University are a good start (though not a complete list). https://www.law.cornell.edu https://www.law.cornell.edu
thtthings 7y ago
I am so glad I left the US to get a PR in Canada. I have a multiple entry 10-year tourist visa to US now. The immigration system will never get reformed. Once the recession follows in a year or two and unemployment goes up no when is going to talk about immigration(no one cares now but they will care even less).
scrumper 7y ago
> estimated that 0.005% of U.S. visa applicants worldwide, or in the range of 65,000 individuals per year, 1,300,000,000 people apply for visas each year?!
- gniv 7y ago
  That cannot be right. There are about 10 mil visas issued, so the number of applications cannot be much higher (it costs $160 to apply). So probably 13 mil.
  - sbayeta 7y ago
    My US Visa is good for ten years (B1-B2 from Argentina, paid $160 and submitted the DS-160). If they all are like mine, then maybe it's 1.300.000. That's consistent with the total 10M you mentioned.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  The percent sign might be unintentional.
- conanbatt 7y ago
  Most countries need tourist visas to enter at all. Any chinese person that comes to the US for the first time needs to get one. Those last 10 years. 75 million people visit the US every year. The magnitude looks believable.
omegaworks 7y ago
They're adding more hurdles for prospective immigrants, and for those that get through the system to retrospectively invalidate naturalization because of incomplete information on a form. https://theintercept.com/2019/04/04/denaturalization-case-citizenship-parvez-khan/ https://theintercept.com/2019/04/04/denaturalization-case-ci...
dontbenebby 7y ago
This is alarming considering many people have multiple handles. Anonymous speech is a major reason America exists[1] and is a constitutional right[2]: >In Watkins v. United States (1957), NAACP v. Alabama (1958), Bates v. Little Rock (1960), and Gibson v. Florida Legislative Investigation Committee (1963), the Court protected the anonymity of members of controversial groups to ensure their First Amendment right of association. Imagine a visitor has handles not tied to their real name. (Maybe they don't feel comfortable criticizing their government under their real name) Should the visitor be forced to list these sensitive identifies in order to enter America? Keep in mind that lying to border officials is pretty much always a reason to be permanently barred from any country. I hope our allies lead by example and don't respond in kind - I'd hate to have to get turned away at the Peace Bridge because I wouldn't lie and wouldn't endanger my privacy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers [2] https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/32/anonymous-speech https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/32/anonymous-speech
- saltedshiv 7y ago
  Do nonresidents that are not presently in the United States have constitutional rights?
  - dontbenebby 7y ago
    Yes. There's been Supreme Court cases that say you still get due process, can't be beaten into confessions, etc. I don't know if that applies to 1A specifically, but they absolutely have some rights: https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/255281-yes-illegal-aliens-have-constitutional-rights https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/255281-ye...
    - TallGuyShort 7y ago
      America believes that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, as long as they're a couple of generations removed from immigrants and #BackTheBlue.
    - deleted 7y ago
alternateRealty 7y ago
By now, any sane person will just stop using anything but cheap disposable devices, and never ever trust websites with any trackable identifiers ever again. Biometrics and genetic recognition leave us dead to rights, because we're caught in a merciless bear trap with ubiquitous webcams, and because we can't help but crop dust genetic samples simply by waving hello. The genetic problem is even worse than imagined, because in 20 years many children will be tagged and released into the wild at the hospital they were born, if they aren't gene edited by then. So, a war will be fought, and blood spilled for a new constitution, I might guess. Because the old ones were not equipped to think according to such unforgiving realities, whether or not they might've been inclined to.
arendtio 7y ago
Does someone know which platforms/providers are available in the dropdown menu? I mean, sure there will be Facebook and Twitter but what about HN/Reddit/Imgur/Whatsapp for example?
- ufo 7y ago
  Someone else took a picture of the drop down menu: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1972026-ds-160-us-visa-application-now-requires-social-media-accounts.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-d... It seems to match the list that appeared in the news earlier: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/30/world/americas/travelers-visa-social-media.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/30/world/americas/travelers-... > The proposal covers 20 social media platforms. Most of them are based in the United States: Facebook, Flickr, Google+, Instagram, LinkedIn, Myspace, Pinterest, Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter, Vine and YouTube. But several are based overseas: the Chinese sites Douban, QQ, Sina Weibo, Tencent Weibo and Youku; the Russian social network VK; Twoo, which was created in Belgium; and Ask.fm, a question-and-answer platform based in Latvia.
  - josephg 7y ago
    I applied for a visa waiver for a short term trip to the US a couple of weeks ago. They asked about social media, but the question was optional. Surprisingly, Github was also on the list there. I’m not sure what border patrol agents will think of my pull requests - but so long as that question is optional I’m going to opt out of answering it.
    - __m 7y ago
      Obviously they’ll deny you entry if you don’t adhere to the national coding style. It’s about time a nation has the courage to enforce curly braces on a new line.
- chirag64 7y ago
  https://twitter.com/gsiskind/status/1134459671706832896?s=12 https://twitter.com/gsiskind/status/1134459671706832896?s=12
kevin_b_er 7y ago
You have few, if any, fundamental rights at or near the US border. It is why PR releases from the ALCU call it a "Constitution Free Zone".
- tptacek 7y ago
  As we can clearly see with this comment, that's a headline that does much more harm than good. In fact: you are broadly subject to search at the US border (that "exception" to the presumption against search was in effect during the administrations of the framers of the Constitution), but that's approximately the extent of it (don't get us started on that dumb map they drew). It helps nobody to perpetuate the idea that you lose your rights to due process, &c simply by dint of being intercepted by CBP at the border. Similarly: citizens of the US can neither be detained indefinitely nor denied entry at the border.
  - kevin_b_er 7y ago
    Yes you conveniently ignore that you are not secure in your persons, effects, or papers at the border. What happens if you refuse to unlock your phone as a US Citizen?
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      They take your phone, hold you for a while, then let you into the United States?
    - tptacek 7y ago
      That 4A doesn't mean the same thing at the border as it does on the streets of Chicago is not in dispute.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      The constitution doesn’t guarantee that you’ll be secure in those things “under all circumstances.” It says you shall be secure in those things “against unreasonable searches and seizures.” Searches at the border have always been considered reasonable.
throwmex 7y ago
No one will bother. Because this does not affect citizens. Let's see how many will call their congressmen about this because it violates rights of non US citizens.
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  > No one will bother. Because this does not affect citizens. I, a US citizen literally JUST spoke out against the practice in the post you are directly replying to.
  - aasasd 7y ago
    This just in: DOS reverses the immigration policy changes, citing Dontbenebby's comment on HN.
    - dang 7y ago
      Please don't break the site guidelines by being snarky or doing personal attacks. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - enraged_camel 7y ago
    You made a comment on the Internet, yes. The real question is: are you willing to call your Congress critters and pressure them to do something about it?
    - dontbenebby 7y ago
      >You made a comment on the Internet, yes. The real question is: are you willing to call your Congress critters and pressure them to do something about it? From the HN guidelines: >Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Do you think you're "assuming good faith" when you imply that all I will do on this issue is make an internet comment?
droithomme 7y ago
There's absolutely no search hits on the text of this question. Is this real?
- whoisjuan 7y ago
  Well of course you won't find search hits for this. This is an online form you get when applying for a visa. It doesn't get indexed by search engines since it's hidden behind an application system.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    It's obviously a hoax, which is obvious with even the smallest amount of research. People who fell for the hoax should be pretty embarrassed. https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/PDF-other/DS-160_Example.pdf https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/PDF-other/DS-160_...
    - whoisjuan 7y ago
      You're linking a DS-160 example from 2017. I don't understand what are you trying to disprove (or prove) with this.
- gfaure 7y ago
  You can apply for a DS-160 at https://ceac.state.gov/genniv/ https://ceac.state.gov/genniv/, where I guarantee you will now find this question.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    NB: That site fails to provide the visa request form for me, even with JS enabled. Direct link?
andr 7y ago
I wonder what happens some of your social media accounts are private. Do they just move on, or do they get the data from the provider?
gfaure 7y ago
Anyone who wants to see the exact wording can start a DS-160 application at https://ceac.state.gov/genniv https://ceac.state.gov/genniv.
nraynaud 7y ago
And remember that they want the list of all the clubs and associations you have ever been “associated” (not just a member) with in your lifetime if you apply for a green card. They want the address, name of the president and dates of association, for your entire life.
jen729w 7y ago
FWIW this has been a question on the ESTA (visa waiver for, say, Australians) for at least 2 years.
- vinni2 7y ago
  Ya but isn’t it optional?
  - jen729w 7y ago
    As far as I remember it's the same question. It's easy to say no ... I mean, I have a Twitter account, but I can't remember the last time I posted. Easy enough to forget about, no?
  - okusername 7y ago
    Yes, it's optional.
intricatedetail 7y ago
That's why I am not going to visit the US. It is essentially becoming another dystopian police state. Shame because there is so many great places to see there, but there is also plenty of other countries that are no paranoid controlling freaks. I can only vote with my wallet.
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  Which countries do you travel to that DO NOT check social media as part of their visa process? Here is a 2015 article talking about it being done in the UK and how the US is lagging because they were not using social media as part of the visa process. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754/Immigration-officers-to-check-social-media-of-applicants-to-root-out-fanatics.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754...
  - NamTaf 7y ago
    China has never asked me for my social media accounts in any of the multiple times I've applied for a visa.
  - intricatedetail 7y ago
    Last time I was in Mexico and Jamaica. They didn't need my social accounts.
  - asqueella 7y ago
    All of Schengen Europe (as of 2017)?
sailfast 7y ago
Anybody listed “NONE” and run into issues? One might also delete accounts or add caveats that they are not your personal accounts? Also yet another reason to stop engaging in these networks. This is actually using them for surveillance and network analysis and you have no insight into what’s happening. The companies are allowing it. Just have to hope your ex high school girlfriend isn’t an anarchist or has a friend of a friend that “liked” a terrorist video I guess?
- dclowd9901 7y ago
  It looks like, according to the article, you at least have to have a history of email accounts. I don’t know if that applies for the other social accounts.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

138 points by throwmex 7y ago

It would have been helpful to get the bill number so we could know who voted for it... Oh, wait, the president just declared that this is the way it is (justified by "terrorism" of course.) I thought we had rules.

dredmorbius 7y ago
US government operates on a number of bases -- not all rules are based on legislation. Generally, by order pf precedent; Constitution, case law, legislation (US Code), regulation (Code of Federal Regulations), and executive orders. Plus others, such as court procedure, prosecutorial discretion, and more. LLI's resources at Cornell University are a good start (though not a complete list). https://www.law.cornell.edu https://www.law.cornell.edu

thtthings 7y ago

I am so glad I left the US to get a PR in Canada. I have a multiple entry 10-year tourist visa to US now. The immigration system will never get reformed. Once the recession follows in a year or two and unemployment goes up no when is going to talk about immigration(no one cares now but they will care even less).

scrumper 7y ago

> estimated that 0.005% of U.S. visa applicants worldwide, or in the range of 65,000 individuals per year, 1,300,000,000 people apply for visas each year?!

gniv 7y ago
That cannot be right. There are about 10 mil visas issued, so the number of applications cannot be much higher (it costs $160 to apply). So probably 13 mil.
- sbayeta 7y ago
  My US Visa is good for ten years (B1-B2 from Argentina, paid $160 and submitted the DS-160). If they all are like mine, then maybe it's 1.300.000. That's consistent with the total 10M you mentioned.
saagarjha 7y ago
The percent sign might be unintentional.
conanbatt 7y ago
Most countries need tourist visas to enter at all. Any chinese person that comes to the US for the first time needs to get one. Those last 10 years. 75 million people visit the US every year. The magnitude looks believable.

omegaworks 7y ago

They're adding more hurdles for prospective immigrants, and for those that get through the system to retrospectively invalidate naturalization because of incomplete information on a form. https://theintercept.com/2019/04/04/denaturalization-case-citizenship-parvez-khan/ https://theintercept.com/2019/04/04/denaturalization-case-ci...

dontbenebby 7y ago

This is alarming considering many people have multiple handles. Anonymous speech is a major reason America exists[1] and is a constitutional right[2]: >In Watkins v. United States (1957), NAACP v. Alabama (1958), Bates v. Little Rock (1960), and Gibson v. Florida Legislative Investigation Committee (1963), the Court protected the anonymity of members of controversial groups to ensure their First Amendment right of association. Imagine a visitor has handles not tied to their real name. (Maybe they don't feel comfortable criticizing their government under their real name) Should the visitor be forced to list these sensitive identifies in order to enter America? Keep in mind that lying to border officials is pretty much always a reason to be permanently barred from any country. I hope our allies lead by example and don't respond in kind - I'd hate to have to get turned away at the Peace Bridge because I wouldn't lie and wouldn't endanger my privacy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers [2] https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/32/anonymous-speech https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/32/anonymous-speech

saltedshiv 7y ago
Do nonresidents that are not presently in the United States have constitutional rights?
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  Yes. There's been Supreme Court cases that say you still get due process, can't be beaten into confessions, etc. I don't know if that applies to 1A specifically, but they absolutely have some rights: https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/255281-yes-illegal-aliens-have-constitutional-rights https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/255281-ye...
  - TallGuyShort 7y ago
    America believes that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, as long as they're a couple of generations removed from immigrants and #BackTheBlue.
  - deleted 7y ago

alternateRealty 7y ago

By now, any sane person will just stop using anything but cheap disposable devices, and never ever trust websites with any trackable identifiers ever again. Biometrics and genetic recognition leave us dead to rights, because we're caught in a merciless bear trap with ubiquitous webcams, and because we can't help but crop dust genetic samples simply by waving hello. The genetic problem is even worse than imagined, because in 20 years many children will be tagged and released into the wild at the hospital they were born, if they aren't gene edited by then. So, a war will be fought, and blood spilled for a new constitution, I might guess. Because the old ones were not equipped to think according to such unforgiving realities, whether or not they might've been inclined to.

arendtio 7y ago

Does someone know which platforms/providers are available in the dropdown menu? I mean, sure there will be Facebook and Twitter but what about HN/Reddit/Imgur/Whatsapp for example?

ufo 7y ago
Someone else took a picture of the drop down menu: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1972026-ds-160-us-visa-application-now-requires-social-media-accounts.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-d... It seems to match the list that appeared in the news earlier: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/30/world/americas/travelers-visa-social-media.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/30/world/americas/travelers-... > The proposal covers 20 social media platforms. Most of them are based in the United States: Facebook, Flickr, Google+, Instagram, LinkedIn, Myspace, Pinterest, Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter, Vine and YouTube. But several are based overseas: the Chinese sites Douban, QQ, Sina Weibo, Tencent Weibo and Youku; the Russian social network VK; Twoo, which was created in Belgium; and Ask.fm, a question-and-answer platform based in Latvia.
- josephg 7y ago
  I applied for a visa waiver for a short term trip to the US a couple of weeks ago. They asked about social media, but the question was optional. Surprisingly, Github was also on the list there. I’m not sure what border patrol agents will think of my pull requests - but so long as that question is optional I’m going to opt out of answering it.
  - __m 7y ago
    Obviously they’ll deny you entry if you don’t adhere to the national coding style. It’s about time a nation has the courage to enforce curly braces on a new line.
chirag64 7y ago
https://twitter.com/gsiskind/status/1134459671706832896?s=12 https://twitter.com/gsiskind/status/1134459671706832896?s=12

kevin_b_er 7y ago

You have few, if any, fundamental rights at or near the US border. It is why PR releases from the ALCU call it a "Constitution Free Zone".

tptacek 7y ago
As we can clearly see with this comment, that's a headline that does much more harm than good. In fact: you are broadly subject to search at the US border (that "exception" to the presumption against search was in effect during the administrations of the framers of the Constitution), but that's approximately the extent of it (don't get us started on that dumb map they drew). It helps nobody to perpetuate the idea that you lose your rights to due process, &c simply by dint of being intercepted by CBP at the border. Similarly: citizens of the US can neither be detained indefinitely nor denied entry at the border.
- kevin_b_er 7y ago
  Yes you conveniently ignore that you are not secure in your persons, effects, or papers at the border. What happens if you refuse to unlock your phone as a US Citizen?
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    They take your phone, hold you for a while, then let you into the United States?
  - tptacek 7y ago
    That 4A doesn't mean the same thing at the border as it does on the streets of Chicago is not in dispute.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    The constitution doesn’t guarantee that you’ll be secure in those things “under all circumstances.” It says you shall be secure in those things “against unreasonable searches and seizures.” Searches at the border have always been considered reasonable.

throwmex 7y ago

No one will bother. Because this does not affect citizens. Let's see how many will call their congressmen about this because it violates rights of non US citizens.

dontbenebby 7y ago
> No one will bother. Because this does not affect citizens. I, a US citizen literally JUST spoke out against the practice in the post you are directly replying to.
- aasasd 7y ago
  This just in: DOS reverses the immigration policy changes, citing Dontbenebby's comment on HN.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines by being snarky or doing personal attacks. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  You made a comment on the Internet, yes. The real question is: are you willing to call your Congress critters and pressure them to do something about it?
  - dontbenebby 7y ago
    >You made a comment on the Internet, yes. The real question is: are you willing to call your Congress critters and pressure them to do something about it? From the HN guidelines: >Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Do you think you're "assuming good faith" when you imply that all I will do on this issue is make an internet comment?

droithomme 7y ago

There's absolutely no search hits on the text of this question. Is this real?

whoisjuan 7y ago
Well of course you won't find search hits for this. This is an online form you get when applying for a visa. It doesn't get indexed by search engines since it's hidden behind an application system.
- droithomme 7y ago
  It's obviously a hoax, which is obvious with even the smallest amount of research. People who fell for the hoax should be pretty embarrassed. https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/PDF-other/DS-160_Example.pdf https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/PDF-other/DS-160_...
  - whoisjuan 7y ago
    You're linking a DS-160 example from 2017. I don't understand what are you trying to disprove (or prove) with this.
gfaure 7y ago
You can apply for a DS-160 at https://ceac.state.gov/genniv/ https://ceac.state.gov/genniv/, where I guarantee you will now find this question.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  NB: That site fails to provide the visa request form for me, even with JS enabled. Direct link?

andr 7y ago

I wonder what happens some of your social media accounts are private. Do they just move on, or do they get the data from the provider?

gfaure 7y ago

Anyone who wants to see the exact wording can start a DS-160 application at https://ceac.state.gov/genniv https://ceac.state.gov/genniv.

nraynaud 7y ago

And remember that they want the list of all the clubs and associations you have ever been “associated” (not just a member) with in your lifetime if you apply for a green card. They want the address, name of the president and dates of association, for your entire life.

jen729w 7y ago

FWIW this has been a question on the ESTA (visa waiver for, say, Australians) for at least 2 years.

vinni2 7y ago
Ya but isn’t it optional?
- jen729w 7y ago
  As far as I remember it's the same question. It's easy to say no ... I mean, I have a Twitter account, but I can't remember the last time I posted. Easy enough to forget about, no?
- okusername 7y ago
  Yes, it's optional.

intricatedetail 7y ago

That's why I am not going to visit the US. It is essentially becoming another dystopian police state. Shame because there is so many great places to see there, but there is also plenty of other countries that are no paranoid controlling freaks. I can only vote with my wallet.

pnw_hazor 7y ago
Which countries do you travel to that DO NOT check social media as part of their visa process? Here is a 2015 article talking about it being done in the UK and how the US is lagging because they were not using social media as part of the visa process. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754/Immigration-officers-to-check-social-media-of-applicants-to-root-out-fanatics.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754...
- NamTaf 7y ago
  China has never asked me for my social media accounts in any of the multiple times I've applied for a visa.
- intricatedetail 7y ago
  Last time I was in Mexico and Jamaica. They didn't need my social accounts.
- asqueella 7y ago
  All of Schengen Europe (as of 2017)?

sailfast 7y ago

Anybody listed “NONE” and run into issues? One might also delete accounts or add caveats that they are not your personal accounts? Also yet another reason to stop engaging in these networks. This is actually using them for surveillance and network analysis and you have no insight into what’s happening. The companies are allowing it. Just have to hope your ex high school girlfriend isn’t an anarchist or has a friend of a friend that “liked” a terrorist video I guess?

dclowd9901 7y ago
It looks like, according to the article, you at least have to have a history of email accounts. I don’t know if that applies for the other social accounts.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]