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Americans who fled the country to escape their student debt

76 points by SQL2219 7y ago

oldjokes 7y ago
This is a totally valid move in my opinion, as well as just circumventing the trainwreck of a healthcare system to seek treatment overseas. If congress continues to be negligent in its duties then this is really the only viable path forward for many people. If a large enough percentage of people bail on their student loans/medical debt then eventually dozens of predatory banks and "medical billing" companies will go out of business and then we can actually start to change things.
- rayiner 7y ago
  By "dozens of predatory banks" and "medical billing companies" you mean "the federal government" (who is owed 92% of student loan debt) and "hospitals and doctors offices" right?
  - oldjokes 7y ago
    Absolutely. I am excited by the prospect of hospitals shutting down and doctors being unable to find a job, it's long overdue for them to finally come back down to earth. I can't imagine a quicker way to reform healthcare than that. It's probably our best case scenario right now with a non-functional government. Student loans are a bit more complicated, but yes absolutely I expect to see massive defaults hurting the federal balance sheet and for schools who failed their students to start shutting down. This isn't a bad thing, it's healthy.
    - gok 7y ago
      How would students defaulting on their debt cause the schools to shut down? They get the tuition up front.
      - bluGill 7y ago
        Student loans would presumably not be given if the degree program isn't able to get you a "good" job after finishing it. Nothing wrong with getting a worthless degree: if you are into art you should get an art degree. However you should first get a good job that pays your bills and pay for that degree from your own fun money. As a society I help with your basic education because the value of everybody knowing how to read and do math makes it worth it.
        gok 7y ago
        >Student loans would presumably not be given if the degree program isn't able to get you a "good" job after finishing it. Er, that's pretty much how we got here, they have been and are being given. Government-backed student loans have no requirement that they be spent on degrees that are lucrative.
        bluGill 7y ago
        That can change. The implication that government is choosing which degrees are worthwhile is scary...
- microcolonel 7y ago
  But who pays? The fools who bought the loans, or the public who mostly paid theirs (if they ever took any to begin with)? I suspect that everyone will pay, despite a minority of people benefiting, that hardly seems just. I don't think it's predatory, I think the lendee is a fool being led by the blind; but does that make it right for it to suddenly be everyone else's burden? People make dumb decisions that affect only them all the time; when is it suddenly my business to subsidize people's personal mistakes? Are they even mistakes at all, if the debt is forgiven without prejudice? I don't want to live in a world where taking a loan you have no intention of paying is not a mistake. Also, AFAIK a huge majority of student loans are held directly by the Federal government (which is the other reason I fear "forgiveness" is on the horizon); assuming you don't mean to call the Federal government a "predatory bank".
  - oldjokes 7y ago
    We could slice 10% (maybe less) off the military budget and pay for college for everyone, forever. This "who pays" nonsense is just that: nonsense. I'm sure the Navy would find a way to make do with a mere nine aircraft carriers. If you're worried about freeloaders getting welfare they don't deserve then slashing the insanely corrupt grifting that goes on every day in DHS/Defense should be your top priority.
    - drocer88 7y ago
      Perhaps we could cut back on entitlements , too. That would bring bigger savings and help with the governmental fiscal responsibility thing. Lower debt would let people keep more of their money to spend on making their lives better.
      - tehjoker 7y ago
        The point is to make life easier for people, not harder.
      - MisterBastahrd 7y ago
        Fun thing about "personal fiscal responsibility" is that almost everyone preaching about it when talking about entitlements have either never been poor in their lives or are grifters looking for acceptance from those who have never been poor in their lives.
- at-fates-hands 7y ago
  > eventually dozens of predatory banks The government completely took over student loans in 2010.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    No they didn't. Source: took out a student loan last year.
    - at-fates-hands 7y ago
      Yes they did. Student Loan Overhaul Approved by Congress - https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26loans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26loans.html Ending one of the fiercest lobbying fights in Washington, Congress voted Thursday to force commercial banks out of the federal student loan market, cutting off billions of dollars in profits in a sweeping restructuring of financial-aid programs and redirecting most of the money to new education initiatives. The revamping of student-loan programs was included in — if overshadowed by — the final health care package. The vote was 56 to 43 in the Senate and 220 to 207 in the House, with Republicans unanimously opposed in both chambers. Although private banks will no longer be allowed to make student loans with federal money, many will continue to earn income by servicing those loans. The Congressional Budget Office said the direct-lending approach would save taxpayers about $61 billion over 10 years. Roughly $40 billion of the savings will be redirected to higher education. Education programs will get an additional $10 billion from the health care package.
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >If a large enough percentage of people bail on their student loans/medical debt then eventually dozens of predatory banks and "medical billing" companies will go out of business and then we can actually start to change things. Pretty naive view of the way things work. The more likely outcome is that those in need will be denied service in the future, either medical or financial. Or do you think we should force employees and medical staff to service people who will not pay for said service? How will that work? I realize the entire situation is a mess, but simply bailing on your obligations to "teach these people a lesson" will backfire. Case in point: you think the bank is hurt by your defaulting your $50,000 in obligations? They have a lien on your personal assets, and the number is insignificant to the size of their balance sheet.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- siffland 7y ago
  How is this a valid move. You bought a service and failed to pay for it. How is this different from predatory payday loans. Sure it is on a larger scale, but do you agree that if you get a payday loan you can leave the country and not pay for it. K-12 education is a right in the US, you get to go to school for free. College is, for better or worse, a paid for service. You chose to go and you signed the paperwork. Medical is a bit different, you certainly didn't ask to have medical conditions (most of the time). So I can't bundle the healthcare system with the Educational systems when it comes to paying back debt.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Lenders should be pricing in the risk of not being paid back, aka figuring out the interest rate, which is their job.
mdorazio 7y ago
Relevant quote that applies to most of the stories in this article: "but, he said, his difficultly finding a college-level job in the U.S. has made that debt oppressive nonetheless." The problem isn't just that students are graduating with debt, it's that they are graduating with debt and degrees that don't translate into actual good job prospects anymore. I think it's also worth mentioning that the "leave the US for a cheaper/easier lifestyle elsewhere" choice isn't new. I met dozens of expats when I lived in China 15 years ago who were there because they could make ends meet and still have fun doing little more than teaching English. The only difference now is that if you ever come back to the US you're pretty much screwed.
- USNetizen 7y ago
  Absolutely agree. We as a society have put so much emphasis on earning a college degree that people are attaining worthless ones at too high of a rate and finding themselves buried in debt with no way to pay it off. It doesn't help that basic financial literacy isn't taught in grade school anymore, either. Too many times, a graduate's first lesson in managing finances and debt comes in the form of a default notice from a lender. The other problem I see here is that the whole mentality of being able to run away from your problems is, well, problematic. These things will only get worse if you don't address them. What they don't apparently realize is, one day, they're going to want to come back to the U.S. for one reason or another just to find out that their mound of student debt has grown into a mountain of defaults which prevents them from even holding certain jobs, getting credit, finding housing, and basically functioning comfortably in society.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    I do think you should be able to declare bankruptcy on worthless degrees. Banks (note that I have a problem with government loan subsidies) should face the risk and not loan to a student getting a worthless degree. What I can't figure out is how to stop someone who gets a useful degree from declaring bankruptcy right after graduating and then getting a job using that degree. This is fraud.
    - 7y ago
jorblumesea 7y ago
> He struggled to come up with the $300 a month he owed upon graduation Don't most loan providers have income based repayment plans? You can just tell them "I can't afford this" and provide pay stubs. I think 15% of take home is standard.
- rayiner 7y ago
  The government, which owns 92% of outstanding student loan debt, has income-based repayment. It's 10% of your income after subtracting 150% of the federal poverty level.
rayiner 7y ago
So the article mentions the average college graduate has $30,000 in debt, which doesn't actually seem that bad. That's the average price of a new car in the U.S. (And, until recently, the average American bought a new car every ~4 years.) The usual rule is that student debt shouldn't exceed your expected first year income, and the median starting salary for a college graduate is considerably over $30,000. So the debt load seems quite in line with recommendations. The article is also missing key bits of information. For example, Chad graduated in 2011, and started in 2007. So he should be eligible for federal income-based repayment, which should key his student loans to his income level. That's a really important fact. 92% of all student loan debt is currently owed to the federal government. Although there have been various programs over the years, those loans have had some sort of income-based repayment plan since 1994: http://www.ibrinfo.org/existingidr.vp.html http://www.ibrinfo.org/existingidr.vp.html. Currently, your payments are 10% of your income above 150% of the federal poverty level. So if Chad is making about $25,000 per year (corresponding to about $1,700 per month take home), his payments would be just $640 per year, or $50 per month under the current PAY-E scheme. I find it curious that articles on the student debt crisis never mention that information. I feel like these articles always pick out exceptional cases (recent graduates who have private loans, for example, even though almost all new student loans are federal). Then they try to link it to the overall $1.6 trillion student debt issue, failing to mention that almost all of that debt is subject to the federal government's income-sensitive repayment options.
- discreditable 7y ago
  Is the average American buying a new car or new to them car every 4 years? Last I checked, new car loan terms are 3-5 years.
  - sharkmerry 7y ago
    they have 6 or 7 years now average is 65 months for new cars https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopping/buying-a-car-what-term-should-your-loan-be-222114 https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopping/buying-a-car-what-te...
    - deleted 7y ago
youeeeeeediot 7y ago
Interesting article, yet not a single mention of what area of study and degree each of those 3 examples received? That is a key piece of information, I wonder why it was left out.
- 781 7y ago
  A previous version of the same story says: - one in philosophy - one in communications and history https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/he-moved-to-a-jungle-in-india-to-escape-his-student-debt--and-hes-not-alone-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/he-moved-to-a-jungle-in-indi...
  - tylerdunkel 7y ago
    all of a sudden I am not as surprised
MBCook 7y ago
This seems like one of those articles where they cite a handful of cases and then draw a big trend line from it. The article says no one tracks this which means it could easily be only a dozen or two people a year at most. Interesting idea though.
spsrich2 7y ago
How long until people with student loan debt are denied passports
- musicale 7y ago
  Probably they are working on this already.
HillaryBriss 7y ago
Where's globalization when you really need it? What if these US students could have earned an equally useful degree for one quarter as much money by attending an accredited college in China, India, Ukraine, Mexico, Russia, Ecuador, Thailand or some other nation where all the costs are lower?
- logicchains 7y ago
  They could have earned an equally useful degree for less than a quarter of the price in some European country like Germany or Finland where university is really cheap even for non-citizens.
boomboomsubban 7y ago
I've seen several stories about this, and people usually become teachers in other countries. I think many of them picked their degrees with an intention of becoming a professor, only to find that job unobtainable. So why are they unwilling to enter the US education system, which has been suffering from a shortage of teachers for years. Are teachers in these other countries better paid? Is the certification in the US that much harder? Or is our public education system so shitty that virtually no one is willing to return after high school?
- Blackthorn 7y ago
  > Are teachers in these other countries better paid? From having some family that were and are teachers here in the states, seems like the answer is: yes. There's also the general lack of respect that American society gives teachers.
- tmm84 7y ago
  When I was fresh out of college (about 6 months), I interviewed for a teacher's assistant in the computer lab. The job only paid $12,500 a year. The school was in a low income area and had a high rate of student on student altercations (they never told me about any student on teacher altercations). I really wanted the job (this was 2007 btw) but didn't get it. I don't know who could stand to work for that little unless they were really loved teaching children or needed money.
La-ang 7y ago
400 dollars as a student repayment of the loan seems small, especially for a single person with no family. There are people working delivery jobs and even off books making way more than that money and yet, going to school in the evening and buying cars and taking loans when necessary. I can tell from these stories that these people hate the struggle, and although college graduates, they never passed the school of hard knocks, as they gave up too easy on America because they couldn't find a job in their city or field, but why not move to another city or expand horizons? I understand if the loan was a colossal 100k, but 30k is quite acceptable. Also some students go study in China to avoid paying for college, so how come the thought never crossed their mind, and working as an expat is a choice, not a last resort.
anbop 7y ago
Don’t know why we get excited about subsidizing the poor choices of the 40th percentile income earner instead of the 5th percentile earner.
hnruss 7y ago
As a software developer, my income has quadrupled since graduating with $25k in student loans from a state college. It was totally worth it for me. However, everyone should do the research to understand their career outlook before going to college. If a profession had low wages, low growth, and/or low demand, I’d be very wary of taking out any student loans to qualify. People should also research what type of college they will need to graduate from in order to achieve their most likely career outcomes. Paying significantly more for private or out-of-state tuition probably won’t be worth it, unless you know for a fact that it will be. Finally, prospective students should critically evaluate their own ability to achieve the grades necessary to graduate. My own degree required nothing more than a C average, which I knew I could achieve.
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  There's strong demand for software engineers now. We can enjoy it while it lasts. But, if you look at some of the latest dev surveys, you'll see there's a ton of fresh talent entering the work force and it's only a matter of time before they become mid-level and senior (5-10 years). At that point, the supply of engineers will far exceed the demand and the same thing will happen to engineers as any other white collar profession.
  - Tehchops 7y ago
    > But, if you look at some of the latest dev surveys, you'll see there's a ton of fresh talent entering the work force and it's only a matter of time before they become mid-level and senior (5-10 years). At that point, the supply of engineers will far exceed the demand and the same thing will happen to engineers as any other white collar profession. While I don't disagree we could see a demand contraction, I think your assertion is based on a tenuous premise at best: tenure == competency. I've had the misfortune of working with many "senior" engineers who struggled with basic technical concepts and even more basic reading comprehension. The demand for great engineers will always be there. What the market will be flooded with is mediocre ones who have improved nothing but their title in the 5-10 years of their career
    - 7y ago
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
The thing is, there's plenty of blue collar waitress/waiter/cook style jobs. Here in the bay area almost every cafe and restaurant has a now hiring sign. But, white collar jobs that require degrees are exceedingly rare. amongst my MBA friends (producers, managers, analysts, etc), their facing an unemployment rate of over 30%! What this indicates is a vast oversupply of workers with degrees. We've just got too many people running around with degrees and not enough blue collar workers.
- egypturnash 7y ago
  “Here in the Bay Area” Sweetheart, your area has its own special problems. You might want to sit down with PadMapper or some other rental site and see what’s available in the Bay Area for a price someone getting paid $11/h (California’s minimum wage) can afford. Especially when you consider there’s a general trend towards never giving anyone enough hours to qualify as full-time.
  - thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
    Believe me I know. They'll never be able to fill those 11$/hour roles without paying more. That's why local inflation is so high. Anything service related becomes increasingly expensive (child care, plumbing, etc). Child care costs 1800$/mo around here vs 600$/mo in other big cities more affordable. the cost of housing raises the eventual total COL
- yardie 7y ago
  Ask someone in the trades what they think of their kids going into the trades. Everyone in those jobs are busting their ass so their kids don't have to take a job like that. Those jobs never pay enough and never pay enough compared to the amount of work involved. Most jobs want cheap, reliable, and productive labor. And you can only get 2 of those. An employee that can hit all 3 is not sticking around if they can get paid better elsewhere. And that is why you see those unfulfilled help wanted signs.
- Blackthorn 7y ago
  Those signs exist because they can't find workers because said workers can't afford to live there!
Tehchops 7y ago
> "He then went back to school to pursue a master’s degree in comparative literature at the University of Colorado Boulder." So: * Get degree * Struggle to find steady/career employment in a job market still rippling from a massive recession * Decide the best ROI is to go back to school for a Master's in Comparative Literature While I'm totally cognizant of the systematic and pervasive failures of the modern college lending system... I don't think the system is totally to blame for this one. Four years of college AND working experience and you still can't make a basic CBA for how you spend your time?
- rayiner 7y ago
  Frankly, his moving to India is a net gain for the US.
- strikelaserclaw 7y ago
  I believe in personal responsibility as much as the next guy, but my generation (i'm about 29) was heavily taught two things by our parents 1)Having a degree is better than not having a degree and 2) You should pursue your interests and passions above all. I am thankful that i became interested in computers at a young age and make a decent living but that guy could have totally been me if i had been interested in something unemployable. Mental models that we are taught about the world growing up have a huge influence on our behaviors as we venture out into the real world. This guy might have doubled down on his "follow your passions" by getting a unemployable masters degree.
bensonn 7y ago
He struggled to come up with the $300 a month he owed upon graduation... He then went back to school to pursue a master’s degree in comparative literature. He brought home $1700 per month and lived with his mother but still couldn't afford to pay off 20k. He couldn't afford to live in the (expensive) city of Denver so he moved into a concrete house in a jungle in India where some toilets are holes in the ground you squat over and restaurants serve spoiled goat meat. He considers his standard of living higher in India. The above is 90% copy/pasted from the article, just shortened and summarized. Maybe this sounds harsh but I don't think he will be missed. Writing off 20k seems like a deal for the US, enjoy him India!
SQL2219 7y ago
I recently toured a state university with my son. The rec center had a lazy river, hot tubs, weight room, climbing wall, etc. It was all very new, and looked very expensive.
purplezooey 7y ago
I have a higher standard of living in a Third World country than I would in America, because of my student loans. In a way, that's really sad, that we can't do better here.
- tylerdunkel 7y ago
  I think most people do, do better. 3 cases of people getting very questionable degrees and then running on their loan obligations does not make a trend.
Blackthorn 7y ago
Really, good for them. They recognized the problem in front of them and did something to fix it. The Bush administration that pushed making student loan debt not dischargeable in bankruptcy has been absolutely ruinous.
lostmymind66 7y ago
Not everyone needs to go to college and a student thinking about enrolling really should look at the likelihood of being able to get a job that pays well enough to pay off the student loan. I know so many history, art, English, and various other liberal arts majors that have $50k+ in debt and are still scraping by. They can't find a job, can't pay off their debt, and are barely surviving. College is an investment in your education. I don't think this is taught enough in school. The Federal loan system is also the problem. Universities get their money up-front and don't care if the student can pay it back. They can continue to increase 'administrative' costs and the students get stuck with the bills and have virtually no risk. The risk needs to be shifted to the University. Shitty, useless, majors would be gone pretty quickly.
musicale 7y ago
If you have high student loan payments and low income, income-based repayment is essential. However, companies systematically (and probably illegally) direct borrowers toward expensive deferment and capitalized interest rather than income-based repayment. Moreover, while traditional payment terms might offer a 30 to 90 day grace period, student loan companies routinely declare a borrower "delinquent" for being one day late, triggering aggressive collections actions as well as credit damage, and or course vectoring borrowers into the aforementioned deferment/capitalized interest. And of course with income-based repayment you may very well be making student loan payments for the rest of your life. Though checking a student loan web site recently it did say that you may be eligible for loan relief if you have recently "become deceased." Good to know.
RickJWagner 7y ago
“Any rational person who learns that people are fleeing the country as a result of their student loan debt will conclude that something has gone horribly awry with this lending system,” I agree. The current system is built to shovel money into ever-growing college bureaucracies. Kids are being given loans without a fair chance to repay and are being encouraged to live lives they can't sustain. The whole thing needs a good reset. MOOCs might help. One thing I strongly oppose: foisting the payoff onto the entire population (taxpayers). That makes non-college people (who make very little) foot the bill for this boondoggle.
business_s1 7y ago
check out this high school district - finally a superintendent paving the way for students not to fall into the college student loan fiasco: https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-students-minimize-college-debt/5323587/ https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-...
business_s1 7y ago
here's a great example of a school district doing something to help kids not get into debt: https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-students-minimize-college-debt/5323587/ https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-... what do you guys think?

76 points by SQL2219 7y ago

This is a totally valid move in my opinion, as well as just circumventing the trainwreck of a healthcare system to seek treatment overseas. If congress continues to be negligent in its duties then this is really the only viable path forward for many people. If a large enough percentage of people bail on their student loans/medical debt then eventually dozens of predatory banks and "medical billing" companies will go out of business and then we can actually start to change things.

rayiner 7y ago
By "dozens of predatory banks" and "medical billing companies" you mean "the federal government" (who is owed 92% of student loan debt) and "hospitals and doctors offices" right?
- oldjokes 7y ago
  Absolutely. I am excited by the prospect of hospitals shutting down and doctors being unable to find a job, it's long overdue for them to finally come back down to earth. I can't imagine a quicker way to reform healthcare than that. It's probably our best case scenario right now with a non-functional government. Student loans are a bit more complicated, but yes absolutely I expect to see massive defaults hurting the federal balance sheet and for schools who failed their students to start shutting down. This isn't a bad thing, it's healthy.
  - gok 7y ago
    How would students defaulting on their debt cause the schools to shut down? They get the tuition up front.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Student loans would presumably not be given if the degree program isn't able to get you a "good" job after finishing it. Nothing wrong with getting a worthless degree: if you are into art you should get an art degree. However you should first get a good job that pays your bills and pay for that degree from your own fun money. As a society I help with your basic education because the value of everybody knowing how to read and do math makes it worth it.
      - gok 7y ago
        >Student loans would presumably not be given if the degree program isn't able to get you a "good" job after finishing it. Er, that's pretty much how we got here, they have been and are being given. Government-backed student loans have no requirement that they be spent on degrees that are lucrative.
        bluGill 7y ago
        That can change. The implication that government is choosing which degrees are worthwhile is scary...
microcolonel 7y ago
But who pays? The fools who bought the loans, or the public who mostly paid theirs (if they ever took any to begin with)? I suspect that everyone will pay, despite a minority of people benefiting, that hardly seems just. I don't think it's predatory, I think the lendee is a fool being led by the blind; but does that make it right for it to suddenly be everyone else's burden? People make dumb decisions that affect only them all the time; when is it suddenly my business to subsidize people's personal mistakes? Are they even mistakes at all, if the debt is forgiven without prejudice? I don't want to live in a world where taking a loan you have no intention of paying is not a mistake. Also, AFAIK a huge majority of student loans are held directly by the Federal government (which is the other reason I fear "forgiveness" is on the horizon); assuming you don't mean to call the Federal government a "predatory bank".
- oldjokes 7y ago
  We could slice 10% (maybe less) off the military budget and pay for college for everyone, forever. This "who pays" nonsense is just that: nonsense. I'm sure the Navy would find a way to make do with a mere nine aircraft carriers. If you're worried about freeloaders getting welfare they don't deserve then slashing the insanely corrupt grifting that goes on every day in DHS/Defense should be your top priority.
  - drocer88 7y ago
    Perhaps we could cut back on entitlements , too. That would bring bigger savings and help with the governmental fiscal responsibility thing. Lower debt would let people keep more of their money to spend on making their lives better.
    - tehjoker 7y ago
      The point is to make life easier for people, not harder.
    - MisterBastahrd 7y ago
      Fun thing about "personal fiscal responsibility" is that almost everyone preaching about it when talking about entitlements have either never been poor in their lives or are grifters looking for acceptance from those who have never been poor in their lives.
at-fates-hands 7y ago
> eventually dozens of predatory banks The government completely took over student loans in 2010.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  No they didn't. Source: took out a student loan last year.
  - at-fates-hands 7y ago
    Yes they did. Student Loan Overhaul Approved by Congress - https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26loans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26loans.html Ending one of the fiercest lobbying fights in Washington, Congress voted Thursday to force commercial banks out of the federal student loan market, cutting off billions of dollars in profits in a sweeping restructuring of financial-aid programs and redirecting most of the money to new education initiatives. The revamping of student-loan programs was included in — if overshadowed by — the final health care package. The vote was 56 to 43 in the Senate and 220 to 207 in the House, with Republicans unanimously opposed in both chambers. Although private banks will no longer be allowed to make student loans with federal money, many will continue to earn income by servicing those loans. The Congressional Budget Office said the direct-lending approach would save taxpayers about $61 billion over 10 years. Roughly $40 billion of the savings will be redirected to higher education. Education programs will get an additional $10 billion from the health care package.
navigatesol 7y ago
>If a large enough percentage of people bail on their student loans/medical debt then eventually dozens of predatory banks and "medical billing" companies will go out of business and then we can actually start to change things. Pretty naive view of the way things work. The more likely outcome is that those in need will be denied service in the future, either medical or financial. Or do you think we should force employees and medical staff to service people who will not pay for said service? How will that work? I realize the entire situation is a mess, but simply bailing on your obligations to "teach these people a lesson" will backfire. Case in point: you think the bank is hurt by your defaulting your $50,000 in obligations? They have a lien on your personal assets, and the number is insignificant to the size of their balance sheet.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
siffland 7y ago
How is this a valid move. You bought a service and failed to pay for it. How is this different from predatory payday loans. Sure it is on a larger scale, but do you agree that if you get a payday loan you can leave the country and not pay for it. K-12 education is a right in the US, you get to go to school for free. College is, for better or worse, a paid for service. You chose to go and you signed the paperwork. Medical is a bit different, you certainly didn't ask to have medical conditions (most of the time). So I can't bundle the healthcare system with the Educational systems when it comes to paying back debt.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Lenders should be pricing in the risk of not being paid back, aka figuring out the interest rate, which is their job.

mdorazio 7y ago

Relevant quote that applies to most of the stories in this article: "but, he said, his difficultly finding a college-level job in the U.S. has made that debt oppressive nonetheless." The problem isn't just that students are graduating with debt, it's that they are graduating with debt and degrees that don't translate into actual good job prospects anymore. I think it's also worth mentioning that the "leave the US for a cheaper/easier lifestyle elsewhere" choice isn't new. I met dozens of expats when I lived in China 15 years ago who were there because they could make ends meet and still have fun doing little more than teaching English. The only difference now is that if you ever come back to the US you're pretty much screwed.

USNetizen 7y ago
Absolutely agree. We as a society have put so much emphasis on earning a college degree that people are attaining worthless ones at too high of a rate and finding themselves buried in debt with no way to pay it off. It doesn't help that basic financial literacy isn't taught in grade school anymore, either. Too many times, a graduate's first lesson in managing finances and debt comes in the form of a default notice from a lender. The other problem I see here is that the whole mentality of being able to run away from your problems is, well, problematic. These things will only get worse if you don't address them. What they don't apparently realize is, one day, they're going to want to come back to the U.S. for one reason or another just to find out that their mound of student debt has grown into a mountain of defaults which prevents them from even holding certain jobs, getting credit, finding housing, and basically functioning comfortably in society.
- bluGill 7y ago
  I do think you should be able to declare bankruptcy on worthless degrees. Banks (note that I have a problem with government loan subsidies) should face the risk and not loan to a student getting a worthless degree. What I can't figure out is how to stop someone who gets a useful degree from declaring bankruptcy right after graduating and then getting a job using that degree. This is fraud.
  - 7y ago

jorblumesea 7y ago

> He struggled to come up with the $300 a month he owed upon graduation Don't most loan providers have income based repayment plans? You can just tell them "I can't afford this" and provide pay stubs. I think 15% of take home is standard.

rayiner 7y ago
The government, which owns 92% of outstanding student loan debt, has income-based repayment. It's 10% of your income after subtracting 150% of the federal poverty level.

rayiner 7y ago

So the article mentions the average college graduate has $30,000 in debt, which doesn't actually seem that bad. That's the average price of a new car in the U.S. (And, until recently, the average American bought a new car every ~4 years.) The usual rule is that student debt shouldn't exceed your expected first year income, and the median starting salary for a college graduate is considerably over $30,000. So the debt load seems quite in line with recommendations. The article is also missing key bits of information. For example, Chad graduated in 2011, and started in 2007. So he should be eligible for federal income-based repayment, which should key his student loans to his income level. That's a really important fact. 92% of all student loan debt is currently owed to the federal government. Although there have been various programs over the years, those loans have had some sort of income-based repayment plan since 1994: http://www.ibrinfo.org/existingidr.vp.html http://www.ibrinfo.org/existingidr.vp.html. Currently, your payments are 10% of your income above 150% of the federal poverty level. So if Chad is making about $25,000 per year (corresponding to about $1,700 per month take home), his payments would be just $640 per year, or $50 per month under the current PAY-E scheme. I find it curious that articles on the student debt crisis never mention that information. I feel like these articles always pick out exceptional cases (recent graduates who have private loans, for example, even though almost all new student loans are federal). Then they try to link it to the overall $1.6 trillion student debt issue, failing to mention that almost all of that debt is subject to the federal government's income-sensitive repayment options.

discreditable 7y ago
Is the average American buying a new car or new to them car every 4 years? Last I checked, new car loan terms are 3-5 years.
- sharkmerry 7y ago
  they have 6 or 7 years now average is 65 months for new cars https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopping/buying-a-car-what-term-should-your-loan-be-222114 https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopping/buying-a-car-what-te...
  - deleted 7y ago

youeeeeeediot 7y ago

Interesting article, yet not a single mention of what area of study and degree each of those 3 examples received? That is a key piece of information, I wonder why it was left out.

781 7y ago
A previous version of the same story says: - one in philosophy - one in communications and history https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/he-moved-to-a-jungle-in-india-to-escape-his-student-debt--and-hes-not-alone-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/he-moved-to-a-jungle-in-indi...
- tylerdunkel 7y ago
  all of a sudden I am not as surprised

MBCook 7y ago

This seems like one of those articles where they cite a handful of cases and then draw a big trend line from it. The article says no one tracks this which means it could easily be only a dozen or two people a year at most. Interesting idea though.

spsrich2 7y ago

How long until people with student loan debt are denied passports

musicale 7y ago
Probably they are working on this already.

HillaryBriss 7y ago

Where's globalization when you really need it? What if these US students could have earned an equally useful degree for one quarter as much money by attending an accredited college in China, India, Ukraine, Mexico, Russia, Ecuador, Thailand or some other nation where all the costs are lower?

logicchains 7y ago
They could have earned an equally useful degree for less than a quarter of the price in some European country like Germany or Finland where university is really cheap even for non-citizens.

boomboomsubban 7y ago

I've seen several stories about this, and people usually become teachers in other countries. I think many of them picked their degrees with an intention of becoming a professor, only to find that job unobtainable. So why are they unwilling to enter the US education system, which has been suffering from a shortage of teachers for years. Are teachers in these other countries better paid? Is the certification in the US that much harder? Or is our public education system so shitty that virtually no one is willing to return after high school?

Blackthorn 7y ago
> Are teachers in these other countries better paid? From having some family that were and are teachers here in the states, seems like the answer is: yes. There's also the general lack of respect that American society gives teachers.
tmm84 7y ago
When I was fresh out of college (about 6 months), I interviewed for a teacher's assistant in the computer lab. The job only paid $12,500 a year. The school was in a low income area and had a high rate of student on student altercations (they never told me about any student on teacher altercations). I really wanted the job (this was 2007 btw) but didn't get it. I don't know who could stand to work for that little unless they were really loved teaching children or needed money.

La-ang 7y ago

400 dollars as a student repayment of the loan seems small, especially for a single person with no family. There are people working delivery jobs and even off books making way more than that money and yet, going to school in the evening and buying cars and taking loans when necessary. I can tell from these stories that these people hate the struggle, and although college graduates, they never passed the school of hard knocks, as they gave up too easy on America because they couldn't find a job in their city or field, but why not move to another city or expand horizons? I understand if the loan was a colossal 100k, but 30k is quite acceptable. Also some students go study in China to avoid paying for college, so how come the thought never crossed their mind, and working as an expat is a choice, not a last resort.

anbop 7y ago

Don’t know why we get excited about subsidizing the poor choices of the 40th percentile income earner instead of the 5th percentile earner.

hnruss 7y ago

As a software developer, my income has quadrupled since graduating with $25k in student loans from a state college. It was totally worth it for me. However, everyone should do the research to understand their career outlook before going to college. If a profession had low wages, low growth, and/or low demand, I’d be very wary of taking out any student loans to qualify. People should also research what type of college they will need to graduate from in order to achieve their most likely career outcomes. Paying significantly more for private or out-of-state tuition probably won’t be worth it, unless you know for a fact that it will be. Finally, prospective students should critically evaluate their own ability to achieve the grades necessary to graduate. My own degree required nothing more than a C average, which I knew I could achieve.

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
There's strong demand for software engineers now. We can enjoy it while it lasts. But, if you look at some of the latest dev surveys, you'll see there's a ton of fresh talent entering the work force and it's only a matter of time before they become mid-level and senior (5-10 years). At that point, the supply of engineers will far exceed the demand and the same thing will happen to engineers as any other white collar profession.
- Tehchops 7y ago
  > But, if you look at some of the latest dev surveys, you'll see there's a ton of fresh talent entering the work force and it's only a matter of time before they become mid-level and senior (5-10 years). At that point, the supply of engineers will far exceed the demand and the same thing will happen to engineers as any other white collar profession. While I don't disagree we could see a demand contraction, I think your assertion is based on a tenuous premise at best: tenure == competency. I've had the misfortune of working with many "senior" engineers who struggled with basic technical concepts and even more basic reading comprehension. The demand for great engineers will always be there. What the market will be flooded with is mediocre ones who have improved nothing but their title in the 5-10 years of their career
  - 7y ago

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago

The thing is, there's plenty of blue collar waitress/waiter/cook style jobs. Here in the bay area almost every cafe and restaurant has a now hiring sign. But, white collar jobs that require degrees are exceedingly rare. amongst my MBA friends (producers, managers, analysts, etc), their facing an unemployment rate of over 30%! What this indicates is a vast oversupply of workers with degrees. We've just got too many people running around with degrees and not enough blue collar workers.

egypturnash 7y ago
“Here in the Bay Area” Sweetheart, your area has its own special problems. You might want to sit down with PadMapper or some other rental site and see what’s available in the Bay Area for a price someone getting paid $11/h (California’s minimum wage) can afford. Especially when you consider there’s a general trend towards never giving anyone enough hours to qualify as full-time.
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  Believe me I know. They'll never be able to fill those 11$/hour roles without paying more. That's why local inflation is so high. Anything service related becomes increasingly expensive (child care, plumbing, etc). Child care costs 1800$/mo around here vs 600$/mo in other big cities more affordable. the cost of housing raises the eventual total COL
yardie 7y ago
Ask someone in the trades what they think of their kids going into the trades. Everyone in those jobs are busting their ass so their kids don't have to take a job like that. Those jobs never pay enough and never pay enough compared to the amount of work involved. Most jobs want cheap, reliable, and productive labor. And you can only get 2 of those. An employee that can hit all 3 is not sticking around if they can get paid better elsewhere. And that is why you see those unfulfilled help wanted signs.
Blackthorn 7y ago
Those signs exist because they can't find workers because said workers can't afford to live there!

Tehchops 7y ago

> "He then went back to school to pursue a master’s degree in comparative literature at the University of Colorado Boulder." So: * Get degree * Struggle to find steady/career employment in a job market still rippling from a massive recession * Decide the best ROI is to go back to school for a Master's in Comparative Literature While I'm totally cognizant of the systematic and pervasive failures of the modern college lending system... I don't think the system is totally to blame for this one. Four years of college AND working experience and you still can't make a basic CBA for how you spend your time?

rayiner 7y ago
Frankly, his moving to India is a net gain for the US.
strikelaserclaw 7y ago
I believe in personal responsibility as much as the next guy, but my generation (i'm about 29) was heavily taught two things by our parents 1)Having a degree is better than not having a degree and 2) You should pursue your interests and passions above all. I am thankful that i became interested in computers at a young age and make a decent living but that guy could have totally been me if i had been interested in something unemployable. Mental models that we are taught about the world growing up have a huge influence on our behaviors as we venture out into the real world. This guy might have doubled down on his "follow your passions" by getting a unemployable masters degree.

bensonn 7y ago

He struggled to come up with the $300 a month he owed upon graduation... He then went back to school to pursue a master’s degree in comparative literature. He brought home $1700 per month and lived with his mother but still couldn't afford to pay off 20k. He couldn't afford to live in the (expensive) city of Denver so he moved into a concrete house in a jungle in India where some toilets are holes in the ground you squat over and restaurants serve spoiled goat meat. He considers his standard of living higher in India. The above is 90% copy/pasted from the article, just shortened and summarized. Maybe this sounds harsh but I don't think he will be missed. Writing off 20k seems like a deal for the US, enjoy him India!

SQL2219 7y ago

I recently toured a state university with my son. The rec center had a lazy river, hot tubs, weight room, climbing wall, etc. It was all very new, and looked very expensive.

purplezooey 7y ago

I have a higher standard of living in a Third World country than I would in America, because of my student loans. In a way, that's really sad, that we can't do better here.

tylerdunkel 7y ago
I think most people do, do better. 3 cases of people getting very questionable degrees and then running on their loan obligations does not make a trend.

Blackthorn 7y ago

Really, good for them. They recognized the problem in front of them and did something to fix it. The Bush administration that pushed making student loan debt not dischargeable in bankruptcy has been absolutely ruinous.

lostmymind66 7y ago

Not everyone needs to go to college and a student thinking about enrolling really should look at the likelihood of being able to get a job that pays well enough to pay off the student loan. I know so many history, art, English, and various other liberal arts majors that have $50k+ in debt and are still scraping by. They can't find a job, can't pay off their debt, and are barely surviving. College is an investment in your education. I don't think this is taught enough in school. The Federal loan system is also the problem. Universities get their money up-front and don't care if the student can pay it back. They can continue to increase 'administrative' costs and the students get stuck with the bills and have virtually no risk. The risk needs to be shifted to the University. Shitty, useless, majors would be gone pretty quickly.

musicale 7y ago

If you have high student loan payments and low income, income-based repayment is essential. However, companies systematically (and probably illegally) direct borrowers toward expensive deferment and capitalized interest rather than income-based repayment. Moreover, while traditional payment terms might offer a 30 to 90 day grace period, student loan companies routinely declare a borrower "delinquent" for being one day late, triggering aggressive collections actions as well as credit damage, and or course vectoring borrowers into the aforementioned deferment/capitalized interest. And of course with income-based repayment you may very well be making student loan payments for the rest of your life. Though checking a student loan web site recently it did say that you may be eligible for loan relief if you have recently "become deceased." Good to know.

RickJWagner 7y ago

“Any rational person who learns that people are fleeing the country as a result of their student loan debt will conclude that something has gone horribly awry with this lending system,” I agree. The current system is built to shovel money into ever-growing college bureaucracies. Kids are being given loans without a fair chance to repay and are being encouraged to live lives they can't sustain. The whole thing needs a good reset. MOOCs might help. One thing I strongly oppose: foisting the payoff onto the entire population (taxpayers). That makes non-college people (who make very little) foot the bill for this boondoggle.

business_s1 7y ago

check out this high school district - finally a superintendent paving the way for students not to fall into the college student loan fiasco: https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-students-minimize-college-debt/5323587/ https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-...

business_s1 7y ago

here's a great example of a school district doing something to help kids not get into debt: https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-students-minimize-college-debt/5323587/ https://abc7chicago.com/education/high-school-program-helps-... what do you guys think?