5 ms·

Firefox has ~250M users as of about 9 months ago and $562M revenue for 2017. I'd honestly pay $2 per month (12 times "my share") for a Firefox that completely

by ademup 7y ago

Firefox has ~250M users as of about 9 months ago and $562M revenue for 2017. I'd honestly pay $2 per month (12 times "my share") for a Firefox that completely disavows the ad model and produces a truly user-centric experience sans ads, fingerprinting, etc. However, given that over 95% of their revenue comes from Royalties, I don't see that turning around any time soon.

thethirdone 7y ago
> Firefox has ~250M users as of about 9 months ago and $562M revenue for 2017 I think nearly everyone would be willing to pay the ~$2/year to use Firefox if all browsers weren't free. At that price, the main reason not to pay is the hassle rather than just downloading. Thanks for the context about the revenue of Firefox. I had never given it any though.
- godelski 7y ago
  They have on their donations a monthly donation. That's hassle free. You can also donate to them through Amazon smile.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  > I think nearly everyone would be willing to pay the ~$2/year to use Firefox if all browsers weren't free. Don't forget $2 in USA buys you different things than in Russia, China, India, or Africa.
simias 7y ago
I would too, but clearly most people wouldn't, otherwise advertisement wouldn't be such a popular way to monetize apps and websites (and Google wouldn't be the behemoth that it is today). Actually I would also gladly pay for a decent search engine but even DuckDuckGo decided to monetize using ads, which IMO means that sooner or later if they're successful enough they'll become just as bad as the rest. Besides paying for a product doesn't mean that it becomes privacy-friendly, look at how Spotify still tracks your every actions even when you're a paying customer for instance.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- fencepost 7y ago
  A possibly relevant distinction for DDG ads is that (I believe) they're anonymized and tied only to the search, not to your identity.
  - bad_user 7y ago
    A lot of people here equate advertising with tracking. A lot of people here also have huge double standards regarding Mozilla.
  - simias 7y ago
    You're right but I can't shake the feeling that if they ever become really popular the temptation to change that model will be huge. Maybe the DDG of today is principled enough not to do that (and it's also probably in their best interest at the moment since their most obvious feature compared to other big search engines is its privacy) but what about 10 years from now? Or 20 years? What happens if their growth starts stalling and the shareholders ask for more? Will they take the side of their freeloading users over the paying advertisers and investors? Principles tend to be soluble in a high-enough concentration of dollar bills. After all there was a time where most of us trusted Google and their "Do No Evil" motto. And then eventually in morphed into "Do More Profit" and we have the corporation that we know today.
    - fencepost 7y ago
      If I had the ability to know what a tech company was going to do 10 or 20 years in the future I wouldn't have sold off my Apple stock in the late 90s. DDG may change how they do things, but I expect that if they do there will be someone else that shows up to make money by providing a value-added anonymizing wrapper on top of search performed by a larger company - and it may not even be on top of the duopoly as it exists right now (are there actual search providers in the US not wrapping Google or Bing?). This may particularly happen if a new company grows in India or China then its able to start spreading coverage to other parts of the world.
ChrisSD 7y ago
Well if HN users do want to try to lessen that percentage here's the donation page: https://donate.mozilla.org/ https://donate.mozilla.org/
- eitland 7y ago
  It was said earlier today that because of American tax rules donation money cannot go to software development. So donation money goes to outreach and similar. Which is useful but doesn't fund Firefox. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.
  - ChrisSD 7y ago
    That would be weird considering they accept donations on behalf of thunderbird https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/ https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/
  - pabs3 7y ago
    I'm told that this is incorrect and that the FSF has been doing it for 34 years, the EFF does it, the ACLU has done it and others have even paid for proprietary software development (their apps etc).
    - zobzu 7y ago
      i worked for mozilla, your donations pretty much do not go to coding firefox. there are side effects where it will affect code, or someone that gets employed by foundation that will now have money and free time to code for firefox for free, but its not like "your dollars go to hiring a sw engineer". the donations are still useful though because if there were none mozilla foundation would die, and in turn, mozilla corporation would also die or be sold as its fully owned by the foundation
  - Kadin 7y ago
    There is nothing about how charities work under US Federal tax law that would produce this result. Tax-exempt charities (which must by definition be non-profit, but not all non-profits are charities, and not all charities are tax exempt!) must spend money in a way that's aligned with their mission, and there are rules on how much they can spend outside that. (The really big no-no has to do with political lobbying and the endorsement of candidates for public office -- a relic of a more civilized age when apparently we thought that should be left up to individuals. But I digress.) The Mozilla Foundation is a California corporation with tax-exempt status under US Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3), which covers "public charities, private foundations or private operating foundations". There are slightly different rules for each category. I'm not sure what category Mozilla Foundation is; my suspicion is they are either a public charity or a private operating foundation. In either case, there's nothing that would prohibit them from funding software development, as long as it doesn't unfairly benefit someone involved in the organization's governance. Their 2016 financial statements (I couldn't find anything newer) are available: https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2016/2016_Mozilla_Audited_Financial_Statement.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2016/2016_Mozilla_Au... tl;dr: In 2016 they spent over $250k on software development as a line-item, out of about $500k in revenue total. It's by far their biggest budget item.
sfink 7y ago
How would that be different from what you can already configure Firefox to do by enabling resist fingerprinting options, turning off Pocket's sponsored articles, turning off telemetry, etc.? It seems like you'd be paying $2/month for keeping a set of preferences up to date. A subscription model of some sort would probably make sense, but I don't think you'd want to gate those kinds of features on it.
vorticalbox 7y ago
Isn't that brave?
godelski 7y ago
They have a monthly subscription for donations[0]. You can't expect them to switch over until they meet a certain threshold. [0] https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/?utm_source=foundation.mozilla.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=header https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/?utm_source=foundation.mozi...
- ripdog 7y ago
  Those donations go to supporting Mozilla Foundation's advocacy work, not Mozilla Corporation's work on Firefox.
Fnoord 7y ago
250M users, you would not have a problem with $2 a month. Don't expect the rest of these users to follow. Donations are voluntary, people are unaware, but most importantly: that $2 of yours is of different value elsewhere in the world. All the people who live in poverty (according to my standards) should not feel obligated to pay American price for software. Which is a small quibble I have with proprietary software.

by ademup 7y ago

thethirdone 7y ago

> Firefox has ~250M users as of about 9 months ago and $562M revenue for 2017 I think nearly everyone would be willing to pay the ~$2/year to use Firefox if all browsers weren't free. At that price, the main reason not to pay is the hassle rather than just downloading. Thanks for the context about the revenue of Firefox. I had never given it any though.

godelski 7y ago
They have on their donations a monthly donation. That's hassle free. You can also donate to them through Amazon smile.
Fnoord 7y ago
> I think nearly everyone would be willing to pay the ~$2/year to use Firefox if all browsers weren't free. Don't forget $2 in USA buys you different things than in Russia, China, India, or Africa.

simias 7y ago

I would too, but clearly most people wouldn't, otherwise advertisement wouldn't be such a popular way to monetize apps and websites (and Google wouldn't be the behemoth that it is today). Actually I would also gladly pay for a decent search engine but even DuckDuckGo decided to monetize using ads, which IMO means that sooner or later if they're successful enough they'll become just as bad as the rest. Besides paying for a product doesn't mean that it becomes privacy-friendly, look at how Spotify still tracks your every actions even when you're a paying customer for instance.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
fencepost 7y ago
A possibly relevant distinction for DDG ads is that (I believe) they're anonymized and tied only to the search, not to your identity.
- bad_user 7y ago
  A lot of people here equate advertising with tracking. A lot of people here also have huge double standards regarding Mozilla.
- simias 7y ago
  You're right but I can't shake the feeling that if they ever become really popular the temptation to change that model will be huge. Maybe the DDG of today is principled enough not to do that (and it's also probably in their best interest at the moment since their most obvious feature compared to other big search engines is its privacy) but what about 10 years from now? Or 20 years? What happens if their growth starts stalling and the shareholders ask for more? Will they take the side of their freeloading users over the paying advertisers and investors? Principles tend to be soluble in a high-enough concentration of dollar bills. After all there was a time where most of us trusted Google and their "Do No Evil" motto. And then eventually in morphed into "Do More Profit" and we have the corporation that we know today.
  - fencepost 7y ago
    If I had the ability to know what a tech company was going to do 10 or 20 years in the future I wouldn't have sold off my Apple stock in the late 90s. DDG may change how they do things, but I expect that if they do there will be someone else that shows up to make money by providing a value-added anonymizing wrapper on top of search performed by a larger company - and it may not even be on top of the duopoly as it exists right now (are there actual search providers in the US not wrapping Google or Bing?). This may particularly happen if a new company grows in India or China then its able to start spreading coverage to other parts of the world.

ChrisSD 7y ago

Well if HN users do want to try to lessen that percentage here's the donation page: https://donate.mozilla.org/ https://donate.mozilla.org/

eitland 7y ago
It was said earlier today that because of American tax rules donation money cannot go to software development. So donation money goes to outreach and similar. Which is useful but doesn't fund Firefox. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.
- ChrisSD 7y ago
  That would be weird considering they accept donations on behalf of thunderbird https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/ https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/
- pabs3 7y ago
  I'm told that this is incorrect and that the FSF has been doing it for 34 years, the EFF does it, the ACLU has done it and others have even paid for proprietary software development (their apps etc).
  - zobzu 7y ago
    i worked for mozilla, your donations pretty much do not go to coding firefox. there are side effects where it will affect code, or someone that gets employed by foundation that will now have money and free time to code for firefox for free, but its not like "your dollars go to hiring a sw engineer". the donations are still useful though because if there were none mozilla foundation would die, and in turn, mozilla corporation would also die or be sold as its fully owned by the foundation
- Kadin 7y ago
  There is nothing about how charities work under US Federal tax law that would produce this result. Tax-exempt charities (which must by definition be non-profit, but not all non-profits are charities, and not all charities are tax exempt!) must spend money in a way that's aligned with their mission, and there are rules on how much they can spend outside that. (The really big no-no has to do with political lobbying and the endorsement of candidates for public office -- a relic of a more civilized age when apparently we thought that should be left up to individuals. But I digress.) The Mozilla Foundation is a California corporation with tax-exempt status under US Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3), which covers "public charities, private foundations or private operating foundations". There are slightly different rules for each category. I'm not sure what category Mozilla Foundation is; my suspicion is they are either a public charity or a private operating foundation. In either case, there's nothing that would prohibit them from funding software development, as long as it doesn't unfairly benefit someone involved in the organization's governance. Their 2016 financial statements (I couldn't find anything newer) are available: https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2016/2016_Mozilla_Audited_Financial_Statement.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2016/2016_Mozilla_Au... tl;dr: In 2016 they spent over $250k on software development as a line-item, out of about $500k in revenue total. It's by far their biggest budget item.

sfink 7y ago

How would that be different from what you can already configure Firefox to do by enabling resist fingerprinting options, turning off Pocket's sponsored articles, turning off telemetry, etc.? It seems like you'd be paying $2/month for keeping a set of preferences up to date. A subscription model of some sort would probably make sense, but I don't think you'd want to gate those kinds of features on it.

vorticalbox 7y ago

Isn't that brave?

godelski 7y ago

They have a monthly subscription for donations[0]. You can't expect them to switch over until they meet a certain threshold. [0] https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/?utm_source=foundation.mozilla.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=header https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/?utm_source=foundation.mozi...

ripdog 7y ago
Those donations go to supporting Mozilla Foundation's advocacy work, not Mozilla Corporation's work on Firefox.

Fnoord 7y ago

250M users, you would not have a problem with $2 a month. Don't expect the rest of these users to follow. Donations are voluntary, people are unaware, but most importantly: that $2 of yours is of different value elsewhere in the world. All the people who live in poverty (according to my standards) should not feel obligated to pay American price for software. Which is a small quibble I have with proprietary software.