14 ms·

I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. Safari seems to be out of fashion: people just assume that it should not be used for some reason, even though it is

by jwr 7y ago

I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. Safari seems to be out of fashion: people just assume that it should not be used for some reason, even though it is actually a great browser. I use Safari for both my own browsing and for development (a fairly large ClojureScript application), and it is by far the best browser on the platform by all measures (speed first and foremost). The only place where Safari falls short is 3D CAD programs (like OnShape), where Chrome is faster and better.

rifung 7y ago
Disclaimer: I work for Google I actually really liked Safari when I used it. The issue for me is just that I don't only use OS X and like having my stuff synced across devices. If I had an iPhone I would probably be very happy with Safari.
iamjustlooking 7y ago
Safari seems lacking in the browser extensions department.
- kossae 7y ago
  This is probably the only reason I don't use Safari on macOS. Especially since their new extension API came out, most of the (few) extensions I was even able to find are now manual-install pains.
javagram 7y ago
Safari redesigned their dev tools at some point a long time ago and made the interface (IMO) terrible. Until they did that I used to use it a lot more. Safari is a great browser if you don’t need the most cutting edge features or extensibility though, and I believe it’s also the best optimized for battery life.
- shados 7y ago
  I legit can't even use the Safari tools even if I try. I have no idea how its supposed to work...the idea is not just terrible. It makes absolutely no sense and I have to google stuff to figure out how to use it every time I do.
  - metafunctor 7y ago
    People keep saying this, but I don't see how Safari dev tools are all that bad. My needs are quite simple, but by and large things appear to work in a way very similar to Chrome. What would be the main things you usually do with the dev tools where Chrome shines and Safari sucks? I'd like to understand what I'm missing by developing on Safari.
    - shados 7y ago
      I have no idea if they're actually good or not when you figure out how to do it. But its getting to figure out where feature xyz is that drives me insane.
    - javagram 7y ago
      The safari dev tools used to be the exact same as chrome. Then they were redesigned and everything was moved to different places. I’m sure they still work fine, it’s just a learning curve to understand where everything was moved. It’s a matter of opinion but IMO the Firefox and chrome tools both have a more intuitive UI as well. Edit: just to be clear this is what I liked https://webkit.org/blog-files/inspector-elements-panel.png https://webkit.org/blog-files/inspector-elements-panel.png
      - om2 7y ago
        They've recently been re-redesigned, particularly the Elements and Network tabs. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the latest version.
        metafunctor 7y ago
        I don't remember any recent redesigns. The Web Inspector has looked more or less the same since Safari 9 was released in 2015. [1] [1] https://webkit.org/blog/5718/10-years-of-web-inspector/ https://webkit.org/blog/5718/10-years-of-web-inspector/
- STRML 7y ago
  That's what WebKit's devtools look like, across all branded browsers. Blink stayed with the old layout and iterated on it. I don't really care which one I use, but change for changes' sake is frustrating. I'm used to Blink/old Webkit and I don't see any reason to learn a new layout.
dhritzkiv 7y ago
Agreed. On macOS, Safari is fastest, hands down. All while preserving battery life better than Chrome, and even Firefox. PiP, swipe to peak navigation, pinch to zoom, better 1Password integration, Apple Pay, etc. are all more than just nice to have features. However, my biggest gripe about Safari has to be the developer tools. They're noticeably slower, clunkier, and the network tab is unpredictable at times. I think it's getting better, but I defer to Firefox to do development.
- k_bx 7y ago
  > and even Firefox if you have a retina display, this "even" is sort of a joke, because ff is so CPU-heavy (and often slow) that it's unusable for me https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042
  - chris_wot 7y ago
    I have a retina display and I'm using Firefox right now with 5 tabs open. Working fine for me!
    - konart 7y ago
      150 tabs here, lol. But it is true that for some users Firefox on retina is barely usable. It is a confirmed bug.
    - sioux77 7y ago
      Do you use scaled resolution? It seems the bug is Retina + scaled resolution which is a default on some Macbooks.
    - novok 7y ago
      I think if you have a 2 core 2015 13" macbook it's slow. If you have a 4 core 2015 15" macbook or better then you are fine with firefox.
      - weberc2 7y ago
el_benhameen 7y ago
I use Safari for non-work browsing (the dev tools make it unusable for work, in my opinion). I was a Chrome user, but Chrome nuked the battery on my mbp in record time. Safari has its kinks and oddities, but it sips the battery even with a ton of tabs open, and it's good enough that I've been using it for about a year with pretty much no thoughts of switching. I also like not feeling like I have the big G looking over my shoulder all the time.
tensor 7y ago
I tried switching to Safari for a few months. Somehow it caused really odd beach balling and freezing of the computer. After a while I couldn't be bothered to jump all the various hoops to debug it, the solution wasn't simple or obvious, and switch to Brave, then finally back to Chrome when dark mode came about. If uBlock stops working, I'll switch off in an instant though.
- nosequel 7y ago
  FWIW Brave also has a dark mode
plorntus 7y ago
To add to others points I find that safari often lags behind implementing standards features and sometimes straight up implements then wrong. For that reason I make a point of not using it. Also as far as I can see I have to upgrade my OS in order to upgrade by browser with safari. Sometimes I just can't be bothered to wait for a 40 minute upgrade to complete.
jrochkind1 7y ago
How's the dev tools (aka whatever the equivalent of Chrome "dev tools" is)? As a web dev, the main reason I don't switch is I know how to use Chrome dev tools, and hate spending time I could be producing code instead learning new tools for something like this. But eventually I'll get myself to (prob to FF rather than safari, as long as I'm switching).
- mmastrac 7y ago
  Safari dev tools are terrible and laid out in a completely un-intuitive manner. It's somewhat sad because the original Safari dev tools (which now live on as the foundation for Chrome's) were best-in-class. At some point they decided to mimic Xcode which pretty much put a nail in them for being useful for anything.
  - jmull 7y ago
    > ...completely un-intuitive manner No, it's just that you're used to something different. I primarily use Safari for development and when I switch to Chrome or Firefox it feels unnatural and weird at first. Then I acclimate and all is well.
- tomjakubowski 7y ago
  The dev tools in Safari are OK, usable and useful enough for the odd task. But there's no reason your everyday browser has to be your primary web dev environment too. I switch to Chrome when doing front-end web dev or hacking in WebGL playgrounds.
- andrethegiant 7y ago
  I prefer Safari's dev tools, actually. The UX is far better, Chrome's dev tools UI is so incredibly cluttered. The only area I find where Chrome's dev tools outshines Safari's is JS profiling — that tree chart graph is pretty useful. The other 95% of the time I stay in Safari.
  - steve_adams_86 7y ago
therealmarv 7y ago
As a web developer I don't like Safari. Safari is for me the number 1 reason to implement workarounds in HTML/JS/CSS because stuff does not work in Safari which is no problem on Chrome and Safari.
kasey_junk 7y ago
I tried to switch the other day and the big blocker is no u2f support. I have switched on my phone, but desktop thats a pretty harsh trade off.
dcope 7y ago
I'd use Safari over Chrome, but Safari has a couple of show-stopping bugs: 1. Swiping back on the trackpad to navigate backwards freezes the page for a couple of seconds. It then redraws the page with any updated elements (perhaps a refresh?). 2. The element CSS attributes in the dev tools often fail to update the DOM, duplicate with every keystroke, or revert what you have typed.
- jmull 7y ago
  For me, for 1. it seems to do the same thing as the back button. There is a refresh, but it has to do that.
- chrischen 7y ago
  1) is a known bug. The fix is to switch to 3 finger back swipe in trackpad settings. Back becomes instant.
  - kkarakk 7y ago
    good of apple to not fix the bug and instead rely on the internet to fix the issue, very safari
pixelrevision 7y ago
Safari has a few things not going for it: 1) ad blocking options are really inferior to chrome (for now) or firefox so a lot of what you gain in speediness gets taken away by some of the garbage that modern websites spit back at you. 2) The dev tools are confusing now. They have good ones but they need to redesign some of the UI on it. 3) There's not a good way to containerize things which means you end up having to open private windows when trying to login to services with different users.
- auiya 7y ago
  While I disagree about ad-blocking and webdev options, Safari's reader mode and overall OS performance is a reason enough to never touch another browser. I have no use-case for multi-user containerization so no opinion there.
scarejunba 7y ago
Safari has a noticeable lag making a new tab, and it doesn’t support my Yubikey.
wmeredith 7y ago
If you use an iOS device, Safari is awesome. The integration between all your hardware devices syncing passwords, tabs, bookmarks, reading list, etc. kicks ass. That’s all not to mention its excellent built-in privacy features and that it’s really really fast.
- unsignedint 7y ago
  I would argue experiences of alternative browsers on iOS is somewhat artificially hindered... Not that I'm saying Safari is bad browser, but on iOS you can't really set other browser as your default browser, browsers can't use their own engines, etc. etc.
  - TheKarateKid 7y ago
    3rd party browsers are not able to make use of the Content Blocking supported by iOS, which is a major sacrifice to use Chrome.
    - robin_reala 7y ago
      That was originally the case, but I believe it was opened up in iOS 11? I certainly use Firefox iOS primarily and don’t see many if any tracking ads.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        Firefox may be doing their own thing, since they own the webview, but they cannot use the content blocking API.
  - smoser 7y ago
    You can set a default browser on iOS w/o Jailbreaking with my app UpTime https://www.producthunt.com/posts/uptime-3/edit https://www.producthunt.com/posts/uptime-3/edit
ddavis 7y ago
mublock origin
askosh 7y ago
Funny, I also use Safari on my Mac and I also work with a rather large ClojureScript application.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jklinger410 7y ago
Safari is the only modern browser I run into that renders differently.
- joemi 7y ago
  I can't claim the same. I get (usually minor) rendering differences between Safari, Chrome, and Firefox pretty equally at work.
Eleopteryx 7y ago
Can Safari play webm files in the browser? Never works for me.
- bobbylarrybobby 7y ago
  It can't. I think Apple is against Webm because there's little hardwire support for it, while mp4 (h264/265) has very good hardware support
- saagarjha 7y ago
  No, and due to the removal NPAPI extension support you cannot add this feature to it.
Lownin 7y ago
I use a lot of different platforms, and Safari only runs on a couple of them. Firefox lets me sync bookmarks, settings and extensions across all of them.
dfabulich 7y ago
Safari doesn't support doesn't support multiple user profiles, and it doesn't support uBlock Origin. If you're switching browsers because you're upset that Chrome is breaking uBO, it makes no sense to switch to another browser that's never supported uBO and probably never will.
- cmplxconjugate 7y ago
  Actually you can get uBO for Safari: https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/blob/safari/README.md https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/blob/safari/README.md
  - latexr 7y ago
    That extension has been dead for over a year. For it to work on future macOS versions, the developers would need to convert it to a Safari App Extension and cough up $99/year. They’re not interested.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      I don't think you need to pay to develop a Safari App Extension.
      - latexr 7y ago
        You do if you want to sign and publish it.
    - drevil-v2 7y ago
      It's not the money. The extensions would have to be ported over to Swift or Objective-C. Complete rewrite of what was JS code previously
      - latexr 7y ago
        I seem to recall an issue on Github where they claimed the cost of an Apple Developer Account was a deterrent, but I may be misremembering.
untog 7y ago
Safari is so much better at preserving battery life it's not even funny. I'm still using Firefox because I find their containers concept incredibly useful, here's hoping Apple steal that idea with the next version of macOS.
mschuster91 7y ago
> I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. No profile support. I have four profiles in use right now, mostly "thanks" to the fact that Twitter can't run multiple accounts at once and Tweetdeck is garbage. Three "private" profiles and one for "work" stuff. That's a dealbreaker for me. In addition, as a web developer, Chrome has way better development tools, and I like to use Chromecast integration and see full URLs in a real address bar, not just the domain like Safari does.
- mi100hael 7y ago
  There's a setting to show the full URL in the address bar. Preferences > Advanced > Show full website address
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    Ah, cool, good to know. Thanks. Still, though, the dealbreaker with profiles remains :/ I'd really like to switch to Safari especially because it is extremely battery friendly but there are so many features it lacks :'(
trophycase 7y ago
No uBlock Origin. Literally the singular reason I don't use it.
konart 7y ago
Extensions. Safari has almost none of them and I need them. And not just uBO. I have 10+ of them install and I'd say 8 of them are mandatory for me. I don't care about Safari being the fastest or battery life. Also dev tools are so much better in Fx and Chrome...
- perryprog 7y ago
  Safari user here—I personally have never used extensions much (probably my own loss), and on Safari I just have 1Password and uBlock°. Besides Safari's lack of extensions I find it to be more or less on par with Firefox, assuming you're in the Apple ecosystem. The dev tools feel extremely polished and feature complete. The only thing Safari's dev tools lack IMO is no fancy CSS support for things like grid or animations. I occasional open up Firefox Dev Edition when I get a weird bug on a webpage and that sort of thing but besides that Safari has served all my needs perfectly.
  - alaskamiller 7y ago
    LiveReload, Pocket, PageCapture, Privacy.com, OneTab/TabsOutliner, VideoSpeedController, SocialBlade all add significant value. Safari's inspector always feels obtuse compared to Chrome or Firefox but maybe I'm just not used to it.
  - konart 7y ago
    >The dev tools feel extremely polished and feature complete. Much less than that of Fx or Chrome. No support of extensions means I can't use something like https://github.com/vuejs/vue-devtools https://github.com/vuejs/vue-devtools, no command menu, poor debugger, no performance\memory usage information etc. The list can go on and on. Safari's dev tools are about at the same level as they were in Chrome or Fx 5+ years ago. As for the extensions part... well, not everybody needs them, I guess, but I can't really imagine my browser without at least, 1P, uBO, Stylys, Tempermonkey, TreeStyleTabs, Tab Session manager, Bloody Vikings! and All Mangas Reader.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
TheKarateKid 7y ago
> I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. One word: iCloud. I don't feel like being encapsulated in Apple's ecosystem because their support on non-Apple products is limited, buggy, and/or non-existent.
ar_lan 7y ago
> The only place where Safari falls short is 3D CAD programs (like OnShape), where Chrome is faster and better. You completely disregard one of the biggest appeals to Chrome, which is its massive extension support (which Safari is miles behind on).
actuator 7y ago
As others have said, Safari has vastly inferior dev tools. I am not a fan of the UI at all. Also, Safari generally lags other browsers in supporting features. They added beacon years after others, even Edge had support for it way before Safari.
bgentry 7y ago
Vastly inferior dev tools, amateur tab management (no multi selecting tabs to rearrange or close), and a lack of extensions that are super valuable in web dev. I keep trying to switch but every time it is clear that Safari is an inferior product (aside from efficiency, where it beats the heck out of Chrome).
pps 7y ago
No extensions, no sync between devices if you don't want to (or can't) use iOS, and overall worse experience for me than anything else I can use on Mac. But I'm using Opera, not Chrome. I think that Vivaldi is currently the best browser, but unfortunately they don't have mobile version yet.
OldSchoolJohnny 7y ago
I dont' understand why any non casual users uses Mac for anything these days unless they feel like paying a stupid tax.
- chadwilken 7y ago
  I use a Mac because they come with a bunch of tools that I need out of the box and are easy to use. The interface is nice and I am comfortable with it. On top of that, I have had the same MBP for 7 years. I have never been able to make a computer last 7 years before buying a MBP.
- apocalyptic0n3 7y ago
  iTerm2 is a decent reason. I've tried to switch to Linux numerous times and I have yet to find a terminal app that is even half as good as iTerm. And command line tools on Windows are a joke currently, at least until the new one comes out soon (which looks good, but I doubt it will be better than iTerm). If you spend a lot of time in your terminal, being able to use the best one that behaves the way you want it to and is customizable nearly to a fault is a decent reason to stick to Mac
  - azpekt 7y ago
    Try Tilix. It has nice UI, a tons of cusomization, even quake-mode.
    - apocalyptic0n3 7y ago
      Next time I am messing around on a Linux desktop, I will give it a shot. I don't think that is one of the ones I've tried. Thanks for the suggestion!
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments or flamebait to HN.
novok 7y ago
Tab management is worse on safari vs chrome. Until recently, there were no favicons in tabs so it was hard to differentiate, and once you have a lot of tabs you have to scroll, while on chrome there is no scrolling and you can use favicons to see all of your tabs at a glance. FF has tab scrolling, but you also have tree style tabs which is better than chrome when you have a lot of tabs. Container tabs are also a big plus and is what made me start using firefox again. Chrome has a tree style tabs extension but the user experience makes it unusable for me. I can't find it for safari. Firefox is still slower & consumes more CPU than chrome and safari after all of the improvements. Especially on a few heavyweight websites I use a lot, like facebook and google maps. Chrome is fast enough by comparison. So on my personal macbook I never use firefox because it's too slow. If safari fixed it's tab issues then I would use it. But being silent apple, they will probably never fix that because it goes against some designer's idea of good design. Look how long it took to get favicons in tabs and it's still not the default option.
- qubitcoder 7y ago
  Pro-tip for Safari: Press Command+Shift+\. This will show an overview of all your tabs at once. Just start typing to find a particular tab by name. A two-finger pinch-in gesture will also trigger the Tab Overview. Another fun one: use Command-Option-<+> and Command-Option-<-> to make text larger or smaller (as opposed to zooming the entire page). To view other shortcuts, click the View menu in Safari, and then hold down the Option key.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > Just start typing to find a particular tab by name. Note that this is probably one of the least discoverable features I've ever seen.
latexr 7y ago
> The only place where Safari falls short is 3D CAD programs Safari has poor controls if you care about privacy and having some modicum of control over the websites you visit. In Chrome we can — on a per-site basis — disable/enable JavaScript; disable/enable cookies (and local storage); allow only some cookies; set which cookies clear on exit. You can also do more, but those are the ones I use. You can do all that without extensions, and the controls are right there on the omnibar. In Safari, I can’t even do that with an extension (that I’m aware of).
- om2 7y ago
  Safari gives you privacy by default without the need to fiddle with controls.
  - latexr 7y ago
    Ostensibly. Safari guesses what is privacy invading or not, and as such makes mistakes. I appreciate their effort, but I don’t believe it’s good enough. This month we got reports of browser fingerprinting on iOS that happened via the phone’s gyroscope[1]. There was a way to not be affected: disabling JavaScript. [1]: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/21/iphone_mems_gyroscope_fingerprinting/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/21/iphone_mems_gyrosco...
seabrookmx 7y ago
I'm sure it's fine for casual users, and you can't deny the battery life improvements when using Safari. However as I posted in another comment, Safari is the new IE when it comes to bugs and standards compliance. Here's an example that broke many many sites that use OAuth2 Auth Code Flow for login (including the main UI portal my company provides clients): https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=194906 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=194906 This was also an issue in iOS, and since Apple doesn't let any other browsers actually use their own rendering engine on that platform (they're just wrappers around Safari's guts) this was broken for all iPhone users no matter the browser. This is just one example. There's been numerous other issues such as disabling third party cookies by default. I can only surmise that Mac users use Chrome/FF because the internet just _works better_ when they do.
webninja 7y ago
Does Safari have a sandbox now? (like Firefox and Chrome have had for a long while now)
- om2 7y ago
  Yes. Safari had sandboxed separate processes per tab for years (well before Firefox).
damnyou 7y ago
> I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. Because sensible people don't deliberately handcuff themselves to trillion dollar megacorps. How can I get my Safari bookmarks on my Android phone?
kkarakk 7y ago
Safari UX sucks -as someone who used windows all their life and recently transitioned to mac. i do not understand the choices and can't integrate them into my workflow
DecoPerson 7y ago
Chrome's tabs are nicer to use. They're visually easier to parse at a glance and arguably nicer to look at. Chrome's tab dragging is really tight and predictable. Chrome's first paint is faster and more consistent. I think when I used macOS, Chrome had DNS preloading but Safari didn't. It's been a while since I used macOS (RIP my 2012 13" MacBook Air), but Chrome's scrolling behaviour is more effective -- "solid" is how I'd describe it. The omnibar is simple and usually shows exactly the right suggestions. Safari's address bar often didn't have the thing I wanted, and had extra things that I definitely didn't want or took a second for my brain to parse. Chrome's context menu has better contrast, being black on white rather than black on silver. The choices are ordered better as well. This is all that comes to mind right now. An employee at my old company used a Mac Mini. She's not computer-saavy, but she far preferred Chrome over Safari. I asked her why and she couldn't describe it -- just that she was certain. I think it would be really insightful to do studies where you take tiny features from Safari, like the context menu colour, put them in Chrome and survey users on how they liked the product.
ulzeraj 7y ago
I also use safari as my main browser. When there is the rare case when a site malfunctions (not so rare anyways... sheesh its like IE all over again) I have brave-browser pulled from brew. I’ve tried chrome in the past but it installed some sort of GoogleUpdater daemon without permission and I absolutely hate that. The same reason I don’t install MSOffice on my machines. If a desktop application needs a background service for wathever reason I don’t want it anywhere near my computers.

by jwr 7y ago

rifung 7y ago

Disclaimer: I work for Google I actually really liked Safari when I used it. The issue for me is just that I don't only use OS X and like having my stuff synced across devices. If I had an iPhone I would probably be very happy with Safari.

iamjustlooking 7y ago

Safari seems lacking in the browser extensions department.

kossae 7y ago
This is probably the only reason I don't use Safari on macOS. Especially since their new extension API came out, most of the (few) extensions I was even able to find are now manual-install pains.

javagram 7y ago

Safari redesigned their dev tools at some point a long time ago and made the interface (IMO) terrible. Until they did that I used to use it a lot more. Safari is a great browser if you don’t need the most cutting edge features or extensibility though, and I believe it’s also the best optimized for battery life.

shados 7y ago
I legit can't even use the Safari tools even if I try. I have no idea how its supposed to work...the idea is not just terrible. It makes absolutely no sense and I have to google stuff to figure out how to use it every time I do.
- metafunctor 7y ago
  People keep saying this, but I don't see how Safari dev tools are all that bad. My needs are quite simple, but by and large things appear to work in a way very similar to Chrome. What would be the main things you usually do with the dev tools where Chrome shines and Safari sucks? I'd like to understand what I'm missing by developing on Safari.
  - shados 7y ago
    I have no idea if they're actually good or not when you figure out how to do it. But its getting to figure out where feature xyz is that drives me insane.
  - javagram 7y ago
    The safari dev tools used to be the exact same as chrome. Then they were redesigned and everything was moved to different places. I’m sure they still work fine, it’s just a learning curve to understand where everything was moved. It’s a matter of opinion but IMO the Firefox and chrome tools both have a more intuitive UI as well. Edit: just to be clear this is what I liked https://webkit.org/blog-files/inspector-elements-panel.png https://webkit.org/blog-files/inspector-elements-panel.png
    - om2 7y ago
      They've recently been re-redesigned, particularly the Elements and Network tabs. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the latest version.
      - metafunctor 7y ago
        I don't remember any recent redesigns. The Web Inspector has looked more or less the same since Safari 9 was released in 2015. [1] [1] https://webkit.org/blog/5718/10-years-of-web-inspector/ https://webkit.org/blog/5718/10-years-of-web-inspector/
STRML 7y ago
That's what WebKit's devtools look like, across all branded browsers. Blink stayed with the old layout and iterated on it. I don't really care which one I use, but change for changes' sake is frustrating. I'm used to Blink/old Webkit and I don't see any reason to learn a new layout.

dhritzkiv 7y ago

Agreed. On macOS, Safari is fastest, hands down. All while preserving battery life better than Chrome, and even Firefox. PiP, swipe to peak navigation, pinch to zoom, better 1Password integration, Apple Pay, etc. are all more than just nice to have features. However, my biggest gripe about Safari has to be the developer tools. They're noticeably slower, clunkier, and the network tab is unpredictable at times. I think it's getting better, but I defer to Firefox to do development.

k_bx 7y ago
> and even Firefox if you have a retina display, this "even" is sort of a joke, because ff is so CPU-heavy (and often slow) that it's unusable for me https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042
- chris_wot 7y ago
  I have a retina display and I'm using Firefox right now with 5 tabs open. Working fine for me!
  - konart 7y ago
    150 tabs here, lol. But it is true that for some users Firefox on retina is barely usable. It is a confirmed bug.
  - sioux77 7y ago
    Do you use scaled resolution? It seems the bug is Retina + scaled resolution which is a default on some Macbooks.
  - novok 7y ago
    I think if you have a 2 core 2015 13" macbook it's slow. If you have a 4 core 2015 15" macbook or better then you are fine with firefox.
    - weberc2 7y ago

el_benhameen 7y ago

I use Safari for non-work browsing (the dev tools make it unusable for work, in my opinion). I was a Chrome user, but Chrome nuked the battery on my mbp in record time. Safari has its kinks and oddities, but it sips the battery even with a ton of tabs open, and it's good enough that I've been using it for about a year with pretty much no thoughts of switching. I also like not feeling like I have the big G looking over my shoulder all the time.

tensor 7y ago

I tried switching to Safari for a few months. Somehow it caused really odd beach balling and freezing of the computer. After a while I couldn't be bothered to jump all the various hoops to debug it, the solution wasn't simple or obvious, and switch to Brave, then finally back to Chrome when dark mode came about. If uBlock stops working, I'll switch off in an instant though.

nosequel 7y ago
FWIW Brave also has a dark mode

plorntus 7y ago

To add to others points I find that safari often lags behind implementing standards features and sometimes straight up implements then wrong. For that reason I make a point of not using it. Also as far as I can see I have to upgrade my OS in order to upgrade by browser with safari. Sometimes I just can't be bothered to wait for a 40 minute upgrade to complete.

jrochkind1 7y ago

How's the dev tools (aka whatever the equivalent of Chrome "dev tools" is)? As a web dev, the main reason I don't switch is I know how to use Chrome dev tools, and hate spending time I could be producing code instead learning new tools for something like this. But eventually I'll get myself to (prob to FF rather than safari, as long as I'm switching).

mmastrac 7y ago
Safari dev tools are terrible and laid out in a completely un-intuitive manner. It's somewhat sad because the original Safari dev tools (which now live on as the foundation for Chrome's) were best-in-class. At some point they decided to mimic Xcode which pretty much put a nail in them for being useful for anything.
- jmull 7y ago
  > ...completely un-intuitive manner No, it's just that you're used to something different. I primarily use Safari for development and when I switch to Chrome or Firefox it feels unnatural and weird at first. Then I acclimate and all is well.
tomjakubowski 7y ago
The dev tools in Safari are OK, usable and useful enough for the odd task. But there's no reason your everyday browser has to be your primary web dev environment too. I switch to Chrome when doing front-end web dev or hacking in WebGL playgrounds.
andrethegiant 7y ago
I prefer Safari's dev tools, actually. The UX is far better, Chrome's dev tools UI is so incredibly cluttered. The only area I find where Chrome's dev tools outshines Safari's is JS profiling — that tree chart graph is pretty useful. The other 95% of the time I stay in Safari.
- steve_adams_86 7y ago

therealmarv 7y ago

As a web developer I don't like Safari. Safari is for me the number 1 reason to implement workarounds in HTML/JS/CSS because stuff does not work in Safari which is no problem on Chrome and Safari.

kasey_junk 7y ago

I tried to switch the other day and the big blocker is no u2f support. I have switched on my phone, but desktop thats a pretty harsh trade off.

dcope 7y ago

I'd use Safari over Chrome, but Safari has a couple of show-stopping bugs: 1. Swiping back on the trackpad to navigate backwards freezes the page for a couple of seconds. It then redraws the page with any updated elements (perhaps a refresh?). 2. The element CSS attributes in the dev tools often fail to update the DOM, duplicate with every keystroke, or revert what you have typed.

jmull 7y ago
For me, for 1. it seems to do the same thing as the back button. There is a refresh, but it has to do that.
chrischen 7y ago
1) is a known bug. The fix is to switch to 3 finger back swipe in trackpad settings. Back becomes instant.
- kkarakk 7y ago
  good of apple to not fix the bug and instead rely on the internet to fix the issue, very safari

pixelrevision 7y ago

Safari has a few things not going for it: 1) ad blocking options are really inferior to chrome (for now) or firefox so a lot of what you gain in speediness gets taken away by some of the garbage that modern websites spit back at you. 2) The dev tools are confusing now. They have good ones but they need to redesign some of the UI on it. 3) There's not a good way to containerize things which means you end up having to open private windows when trying to login to services with different users.

auiya 7y ago
While I disagree about ad-blocking and webdev options, Safari's reader mode and overall OS performance is a reason enough to never touch another browser. I have no use-case for multi-user containerization so no opinion there.

scarejunba 7y ago

Safari has a noticeable lag making a new tab, and it doesn’t support my Yubikey.

wmeredith 7y ago

If you use an iOS device, Safari is awesome. The integration between all your hardware devices syncing passwords, tabs, bookmarks, reading list, etc. kicks ass. That’s all not to mention its excellent built-in privacy features and that it’s really really fast.

unsignedint 7y ago
I would argue experiences of alternative browsers on iOS is somewhat artificially hindered... Not that I'm saying Safari is bad browser, but on iOS you can't really set other browser as your default browser, browsers can't use their own engines, etc. etc.
- TheKarateKid 7y ago
  3rd party browsers are not able to make use of the Content Blocking supported by iOS, which is a major sacrifice to use Chrome.
  - robin_reala 7y ago
    That was originally the case, but I believe it was opened up in iOS 11? I certainly use Firefox iOS primarily and don’t see many if any tracking ads.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Firefox may be doing their own thing, since they own the webview, but they cannot use the content blocking API.
- smoser 7y ago
  You can set a default browser on iOS w/o Jailbreaking with my app UpTime https://www.producthunt.com/posts/uptime-3/edit https://www.producthunt.com/posts/uptime-3/edit

ddavis 7y ago

mublock origin

askosh 7y ago

Funny, I also use Safari on my Mac and I also work with a rather large ClojureScript application.

deleted 7y ago

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jklinger410 7y ago

Safari is the only modern browser I run into that renders differently.

joemi 7y ago
I can't claim the same. I get (usually minor) rendering differences between Safari, Chrome, and Firefox pretty equally at work.

Eleopteryx 7y ago

Can Safari play webm files in the browser? Never works for me.

bobbylarrybobby 7y ago
It can't. I think Apple is against Webm because there's little hardwire support for it, while mp4 (h264/265) has very good hardware support
saagarjha 7y ago
No, and due to the removal NPAPI extension support you cannot add this feature to it.

Lownin 7y ago

I use a lot of different platforms, and Safari only runs on a couple of them. Firefox lets me sync bookmarks, settings and extensions across all of them.

dfabulich 7y ago

Safari doesn't support doesn't support multiple user profiles, and it doesn't support uBlock Origin. If you're switching browsers because you're upset that Chrome is breaking uBO, it makes no sense to switch to another browser that's never supported uBO and probably never will.

cmplxconjugate 7y ago
Actually you can get uBO for Safari: https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/blob/safari/README.md https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/blob/safari/README.md
- latexr 7y ago
  That extension has been dead for over a year. For it to work on future macOS versions, the developers would need to convert it to a Safari App Extension and cough up $99/year. They’re not interested.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    I don't think you need to pay to develop a Safari App Extension.
    - latexr 7y ago
      You do if you want to sign and publish it.
  - drevil-v2 7y ago
    It's not the money. The extensions would have to be ported over to Swift or Objective-C. Complete rewrite of what was JS code previously
    - latexr 7y ago
      I seem to recall an issue on Github where they claimed the cost of an Apple Developer Account was a deterrent, but I may be misremembering.

untog 7y ago

Safari is so much better at preserving battery life it's not even funny. I'm still using Firefox because I find their containers concept incredibly useful, here's hoping Apple steal that idea with the next version of macOS.

mschuster91 7y ago

> I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. No profile support. I have four profiles in use right now, mostly "thanks" to the fact that Twitter can't run multiple accounts at once and Tweetdeck is garbage. Three "private" profiles and one for "work" stuff. That's a dealbreaker for me. In addition, as a web developer, Chrome has way better development tools, and I like to use Chromecast integration and see full URLs in a real address bar, not just the domain like Safari does.

mi100hael 7y ago
There's a setting to show the full URL in the address bar. Preferences > Advanced > Show full website address
- mschuster91 7y ago
  Ah, cool, good to know. Thanks. Still, though, the dealbreaker with profiles remains :/ I'd really like to switch to Safari especially because it is extremely battery friendly but there are so many features it lacks :'(

trophycase 7y ago

No uBlock Origin. Literally the singular reason I don't use it.

konart 7y ago

Extensions. Safari has almost none of them and I need them. And not just uBO. I have 10+ of them install and I'd say 8 of them are mandatory for me. I don't care about Safari being the fastest or battery life. Also dev tools are so much better in Fx and Chrome...

perryprog 7y ago
Safari user here—I personally have never used extensions much (probably my own loss), and on Safari I just have 1Password and uBlock°. Besides Safari's lack of extensions I find it to be more or less on par with Firefox, assuming you're in the Apple ecosystem. The dev tools feel extremely polished and feature complete. The only thing Safari's dev tools lack IMO is no fancy CSS support for things like grid or animations. I occasional open up Firefox Dev Edition when I get a weird bug on a webpage and that sort of thing but besides that Safari has served all my needs perfectly.
- alaskamiller 7y ago
  LiveReload, Pocket, PageCapture, Privacy.com, OneTab/TabsOutliner, VideoSpeedController, SocialBlade all add significant value. Safari's inspector always feels obtuse compared to Chrome or Firefox but maybe I'm just not used to it.
- konart 7y ago
  >The dev tools feel extremely polished and feature complete. Much less than that of Fx or Chrome. No support of extensions means I can't use something like https://github.com/vuejs/vue-devtools https://github.com/vuejs/vue-devtools, no command menu, poor debugger, no performance\memory usage information etc. The list can go on and on. Safari's dev tools are about at the same level as they were in Chrome or Fx 5+ years ago. As for the extensions part... well, not everybody needs them, I guess, but I can't really imagine my browser without at least, 1P, uBO, Stylys, Tempermonkey, TreeStyleTabs, Tab Session manager, Bloody Vikings! and All Mangas Reader.
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TheKarateKid 7y ago

> I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. One word: iCloud. I don't feel like being encapsulated in Apple's ecosystem because their support on non-Apple products is limited, buggy, and/or non-existent.

ar_lan 7y ago

> The only place where Safari falls short is 3D CAD programs (like OnShape), where Chrome is faster and better. You completely disregard one of the biggest appeals to Chrome, which is its massive extension support (which Safari is miles behind on).

actuator 7y ago

As others have said, Safari has vastly inferior dev tools. I am not a fan of the UI at all. Also, Safari generally lags other browsers in supporting features. They added beacon years after others, even Edge had support for it way before Safari.

bgentry 7y ago

Vastly inferior dev tools, amateur tab management (no multi selecting tabs to rearrange or close), and a lack of extensions that are super valuable in web dev. I keep trying to switch but every time it is clear that Safari is an inferior product (aside from efficiency, where it beats the heck out of Chrome).

pps 7y ago

No extensions, no sync between devices if you don't want to (or can't) use iOS, and overall worse experience for me than anything else I can use on Mac. But I'm using Opera, not Chrome. I think that Vivaldi is currently the best browser, but unfortunately they don't have mobile version yet.

OldSchoolJohnny 7y ago

I dont' understand why any non casual users uses Mac for anything these days unless they feel like paying a stupid tax.

chadwilken 7y ago
I use a Mac because they come with a bunch of tools that I need out of the box and are easy to use. The interface is nice and I am comfortable with it. On top of that, I have had the same MBP for 7 years. I have never been able to make a computer last 7 years before buying a MBP.
apocalyptic0n3 7y ago
iTerm2 is a decent reason. I've tried to switch to Linux numerous times and I have yet to find a terminal app that is even half as good as iTerm. And command line tools on Windows are a joke currently, at least until the new one comes out soon (which looks good, but I doubt it will be better than iTerm). If you spend a lot of time in your terminal, being able to use the best one that behaves the way you want it to and is customizable nearly to a fault is a decent reason to stick to Mac
- azpekt 7y ago
  Try Tilix. It has nice UI, a tons of cusomization, even quake-mode.
  - apocalyptic0n3 7y ago
    Next time I am messing around on a Linux desktop, I will give it a shot. I don't think that is one of the ones I've tried. Thanks for the suggestion!
dang 7y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments or flamebait to HN.

novok 7y ago

Tab management is worse on safari vs chrome. Until recently, there were no favicons in tabs so it was hard to differentiate, and once you have a lot of tabs you have to scroll, while on chrome there is no scrolling and you can use favicons to see all of your tabs at a glance. FF has tab scrolling, but you also have tree style tabs which is better than chrome when you have a lot of tabs. Container tabs are also a big plus and is what made me start using firefox again. Chrome has a tree style tabs extension but the user experience makes it unusable for me. I can't find it for safari. Firefox is still slower & consumes more CPU than chrome and safari after all of the improvements. Especially on a few heavyweight websites I use a lot, like facebook and google maps. Chrome is fast enough by comparison. So on my personal macbook I never use firefox because it's too slow. If safari fixed it's tab issues then I would use it. But being silent apple, they will probably never fix that because it goes against some designer's idea of good design. Look how long it took to get favicons in tabs and it's still not the default option.

qubitcoder 7y ago
Pro-tip for Safari: Press Command+Shift+\. This will show an overview of all your tabs at once. Just start typing to find a particular tab by name. A two-finger pinch-in gesture will also trigger the Tab Overview. Another fun one: use Command-Option-<+> and Command-Option-<-> to make text larger or smaller (as opposed to zooming the entire page). To view other shortcuts, click the View menu in Safari, and then hold down the Option key.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > Just start typing to find a particular tab by name. Note that this is probably one of the least discoverable features I've ever seen.

latexr 7y ago

> The only place where Safari falls short is 3D CAD programs Safari has poor controls if you care about privacy and having some modicum of control over the websites you visit. In Chrome we can — on a per-site basis — disable/enable JavaScript; disable/enable cookies (and local storage); allow only some cookies; set which cookies clear on exit. You can also do more, but those are the ones I use. You can do all that without extensions, and the controls are right there on the omnibar. In Safari, I can’t even do that with an extension (that I’m aware of).

om2 7y ago
Safari gives you privacy by default without the need to fiddle with controls.
- latexr 7y ago
  Ostensibly. Safari guesses what is privacy invading or not, and as such makes mistakes. I appreciate their effort, but I don’t believe it’s good enough. This month we got reports of browser fingerprinting on iOS that happened via the phone’s gyroscope[1]. There was a way to not be affected: disabling JavaScript. [1]: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/21/iphone_mems_gyroscope_fingerprinting/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/21/iphone_mems_gyrosco...

seabrookmx 7y ago

I'm sure it's fine for casual users, and you can't deny the battery life improvements when using Safari. However as I posted in another comment, Safari is the new IE when it comes to bugs and standards compliance. Here's an example that broke many many sites that use OAuth2 Auth Code Flow for login (including the main UI portal my company provides clients): https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=194906 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=194906 This was also an issue in iOS, and since Apple doesn't let any other browsers actually use their own rendering engine on that platform (they're just wrappers around Safari's guts) this was broken for all iPhone users no matter the browser. This is just one example. There's been numerous other issues such as disabling third party cookies by default. I can only surmise that Mac users use Chrome/FF because the internet just _works better_ when they do.

webninja 7y ago

Does Safari have a sandbox now? (like Firefox and Chrome have had for a long while now)

om2 7y ago
Yes. Safari had sandboxed separate processes per tab for years (well before Firefox).

damnyou 7y ago

> I don't understand why Mac users use Chrome. Because sensible people don't deliberately handcuff themselves to trillion dollar megacorps. How can I get my Safari bookmarks on my Android phone?

kkarakk 7y ago

Safari UX sucks -as someone who used windows all their life and recently transitioned to mac. i do not understand the choices and can't integrate them into my workflow

DecoPerson 7y ago

Chrome's tabs are nicer to use. They're visually easier to parse at a glance and arguably nicer to look at. Chrome's tab dragging is really tight and predictable. Chrome's first paint is faster and more consistent. I think when I used macOS, Chrome had DNS preloading but Safari didn't. It's been a while since I used macOS (RIP my 2012 13" MacBook Air), but Chrome's scrolling behaviour is more effective -- "solid" is how I'd describe it. The omnibar is simple and usually shows exactly the right suggestions. Safari's address bar often didn't have the thing I wanted, and had extra things that I definitely didn't want or took a second for my brain to parse. Chrome's context menu has better contrast, being black on white rather than black on silver. The choices are ordered better as well. This is all that comes to mind right now. An employee at my old company used a Mac Mini. She's not computer-saavy, but she far preferred Chrome over Safari. I asked her why and she couldn't describe it -- just that she was certain. I think it would be really insightful to do studies where you take tiny features from Safari, like the context menu colour, put them in Chrome and survey users on how they liked the product.

ulzeraj 7y ago

I also use safari as my main browser. When there is the rare case when a site malfunctions (not so rare anyways... sheesh its like IE all over again) I have brave-browser pulled from brew. I’ve tried chrome in the past but it installed some sort of GoogleUpdater daemon without permission and I absolutely hate that. The same reason I don’t install MSOffice on my machines. If a desktop application needs a background service for wathever reason I don’t want it anywhere near my computers.