6 ms·

Chinese activists detained ahead of 30th anniversary of Tiananmen crackdown

123 points by okket 7y ago

jacknews 7y ago
Asked if the People’s Liberation Army planned any commemoration on June 4, defence ministry spokesman Wu Qian said on Thursday: "I do not agree with you for using the word ‘suppression’. I think these past 30 years, the stable process of China’s reform and development and the achievements that have been made are an answer to this question.” Stop buying crappy Chinese knock-offs and that excuse will fade.
- geoka9 7y ago
  What about the rest of the stuff we buy, 80% of which is still made in China?
  - adventured 7y ago
    80% huh? China is about 24% of global manufacturing. Their share is also no longer increasing (their manufacturing sector has been net stagnant for years, as they tread water; moving up the ladder in some sectors, while cost-sensitive manufacturing flees to cheaper shores like Vietnam). The US is around 18% to 19% of global manufacturing (it was 28% as recently as 2002). China took the global lead in 2010. Other countries are also still very substantial manufacturing centers. Japan, as of 2016, for example still had a manufacturing output equal to 30% that of China (with an economy ~45% the size of China in that year). Germany has an economy 1/5 the size of the US, but it does about 1/3 the manufacturing output of the US. The US + Japan + Germany have a manufacturing output about 25% larger than China. https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf
    - geoka9 7y ago
      Interesting. I just checked, most of the non-food brand name stuff I buy seems to be made in China. Looking at my last 6 purchases: a Lenovo laptop (China), HP desktop (China), Babolat shoes (China), Penn tennis balls (China), Panasonic rechargeable batteries (China), Fruit of the Loom socks (USA).
      - CharlesColeman 7y ago
        I agree with you, but it may very will be that Chinese manufacturing is over-represented in the high-volume consumer-goods sector. The US/Japan/Germany may have proportionally more of their output in low-volume but massively expensive products, many of which may have little direct consumer exposure.
        mpwoz 7y ago
        Cars are one example.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  China's export economy hasn't been built on crappy knockoffs in 30 years.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    Right, it's been built on real-estate ponzi schemes for at least the last decade.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    A disproportionate number of iffy products are Chinese though. There are a couple of situation playing out here in NZ that are pretty bad. Weak steel that will fail under stress being the main one. When used in earthquake strengthening you can see the issue, and it seems to have caused train derailments here too. And we got a batch of dodgy locomotives. Fake milk caused financial problems for a NZ parent company, while in China it was a literal baby killer, with 54,000 hospitalised and 12 killed. Great products come out of Chiba but it has a long way to go. https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/107334763/reopening-of-steel-inquiry-risks-chinese-tension https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/107334763/reopenin... https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.rnz.co.nz/article/6442509a-9838-44e6-aacc-2f00a8c4d9ad https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.rnz.co.nz/article/6442509... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  Right after my government fixes stagnant wages and undoes the last 20 years of neoliberalist globalization, sure.
- pimlottc 7y ago
  Reposted quote in italics for better readability on mobile: Asked if the People’s Liberation Army planned any commemoration on June 4, defense ministry spokesman Wu Qian said on Thursday: "I do not agree with you for using the word ‘suppression’. I think these past 30 years, the stable process of China’s reform and development and the achievements that have been made are an answer to this question.”
- taobility 7y ago
  do you mind mail your iPhone/Xbox to me?
CharlesColeman 7y ago
A Chinese friend of mine recently summarized to me a lecture by a senior Renmin University sociology professor that talked about the Tiananmen crackdown and compared that generation of students to the current one (and that generation's leadership to the current leaders). Does anyone know what I'm talking about and/or have an English translation? It sounded very interesting and quite candid, and the professor sounded high enough to have actually met some of the leaders in question.
- uranusjr 7y ago
  Is this the one you’re referring to? (The content matches your description, but it’s more of an interview.) The professor (Zhou Xiaozheng) is a famous for being extremely outspoken about the Tiananmen incident, even when he was in China (he lives in the US now). I am not aware of any translations, unfortunately. https://youtu.be/xQM2ICCD94E https://youtu.be/xQM2ICCD94E
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    Yep, I confirmed that's it. Thanks!
dosy 7y ago
The word is dissident. You don't have activism in China, you only have (, ignoring all the regular people who just work hard and don't cause trouble) the state, its law and dissidents (who by definition are stupid people who want to go against the state and its law). You may not be stupid if you're an "activist" in America (but you probably still are ~ engagement not activism is much better), but if people call you an "activist" in China (ha!), then you're just someone who is dumb, because you fail to understand that State and its Law. I think I should clarify why these people are stupid. Because they ought to know that doing this is going to bring them a world of trouble, and achieve nothing, but they do so.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > You don't have activism in China, you only have (, ignoring all the regular people who just work hard and don't cause trouble) the state, its law and dissidents (who by definition are stupid people who want to go against the state and its law).... > I think I should clarify why these people are stupid. Because they ought to know that doing this is going to bring them a world of trouble, and achieve nothing, but they do so. What you're describing as "stupidity" is properly called courage. From some (usually excessively selfish) perspectives it looks "stupid" to be courageous. However, it's is still rightly recognized as a positive and admirable trait, since the perspectives that would label it "stupid" are quite deficient, to put it mildly.
  - vkou 7y ago
    It's only described as a positive and admirable trait when you agree with their politics.
    - CharlesColeman 7y ago
      > It's only described as a positive and admirable trait when you agree with their politics. No, I don't think so. IMHO, that kind of thinking is just lazy cynicism.
- jayess 7y ago
spraak 7y ago
r/socialism and r/communism have a strong narrative about this event, something like ... that "hardly anyone" was killed and that it was the unruly, disorganized students fault.
spraak 7y ago
It's amazing to me to see some people rationalize away the events that happened at Tianamen, in the same way people rationalize away/deny the Holocaust. My previous comment here was flagged and removed talking about the denialists' perspective, so to be clear I am not promoting that, I'm just relating my amazement at how it can be denied and ignored. I've spent some time reading the "real" truth about Tianamen from such sources, and I walk away shaken at how convincing it is. That I almost want to believe it. I don't know what to make of it; I guess just that it's interesting and amazing how beliefs are formed and hardened, and that nearly any perspective can be backed up with convincing evidence.
zwaps 7y ago
It's hilarious that you can go to jail for more than three years for "picking quarrels and provoking trouble”. "Deng was arrested on May 17 and police warned his family not to hire a lawyer, the rights group said in a statement." People defending China - look out. This is not a country that cares about justice or human rights.
xenospn 7y ago
China: "Nothing happened in Beijing 30 years ago" Also China: <Arrests people just in case>

123 points by okket 7y ago

Asked if the People’s Liberation Army planned any commemoration on June 4, defence ministry spokesman Wu Qian said on Thursday: "I do not agree with you for using the word ‘suppression’. I think these past 30 years, the stable process of China’s reform and development and the achievements that have been made are an answer to this question.” Stop buying crappy Chinese knock-offs and that excuse will fade.

geoka9 7y ago
What about the rest of the stuff we buy, 80% of which is still made in China?
- adventured 7y ago
  80% huh? China is about 24% of global manufacturing. Their share is also no longer increasing (their manufacturing sector has been net stagnant for years, as they tread water; moving up the ladder in some sectors, while cost-sensitive manufacturing flees to cheaper shores like Vietnam). The US is around 18% to 19% of global manufacturing (it was 28% as recently as 2002). China took the global lead in 2010. Other countries are also still very substantial manufacturing centers. Japan, as of 2016, for example still had a manufacturing output equal to 30% that of China (with an economy ~45% the size of China in that year). Germany has an economy 1/5 the size of the US, but it does about 1/3 the manufacturing output of the US. The US + Japan + Germany have a manufacturing output about 25% larger than China. https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf
  - geoka9 7y ago
    Interesting. I just checked, most of the non-food brand name stuff I buy seems to be made in China. Looking at my last 6 purchases: a Lenovo laptop (China), HP desktop (China), Babolat shoes (China), Penn tennis balls (China), Panasonic rechargeable batteries (China), Fruit of the Loom socks (USA).
    - CharlesColeman 7y ago
      I agree with you, but it may very will be that Chinese manufacturing is over-represented in the high-volume consumer-goods sector. The US/Japan/Germany may have proportionally more of their output in low-volume but massively expensive products, many of which may have little direct consumer exposure.
      - mpwoz 7y ago
        Cars are one example.
_bxg1 7y ago
China's export economy hasn't been built on crappy knockoffs in 30 years.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Right, it's been built on real-estate ponzi schemes for at least the last decade.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  A disproportionate number of iffy products are Chinese though. There are a couple of situation playing out here in NZ that are pretty bad. Weak steel that will fail under stress being the main one. When used in earthquake strengthening you can see the issue, and it seems to have caused train derailments here too. And we got a batch of dodgy locomotives. Fake milk caused financial problems for a NZ parent company, while in China it was a literal baby killer, with 54,000 hospitalised and 12 killed. Great products come out of Chiba but it has a long way to go. https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/107334763/reopening-of-steel-inquiry-risks-chinese-tension https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/107334763/reopenin... https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.rnz.co.nz/article/6442509a-9838-44e6-aacc-2f00a8c4d9ad https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.rnz.co.nz/article/6442509... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
soulofmischief 7y ago
Right after my government fixes stagnant wages and undoes the last 20 years of neoliberalist globalization, sure.
pimlottc 7y ago
Reposted quote in italics for better readability on mobile: Asked if the People’s Liberation Army planned any commemoration on June 4, defense ministry spokesman Wu Qian said on Thursday: "I do not agree with you for using the word ‘suppression’. I think these past 30 years, the stable process of China’s reform and development and the achievements that have been made are an answer to this question.”
taobility 7y ago
do you mind mail your iPhone/Xbox to me?

CharlesColeman 7y ago

A Chinese friend of mine recently summarized to me a lecture by a senior Renmin University sociology professor that talked about the Tiananmen crackdown and compared that generation of students to the current one (and that generation's leadership to the current leaders). Does anyone know what I'm talking about and/or have an English translation? It sounded very interesting and quite candid, and the professor sounded high enough to have actually met some of the leaders in question.

uranusjr 7y ago
Is this the one you’re referring to? (The content matches your description, but it’s more of an interview.) The professor (Zhou Xiaozheng) is a famous for being extremely outspoken about the Tiananmen incident, even when he was in China (he lives in the US now). I am not aware of any translations, unfortunately. https://youtu.be/xQM2ICCD94E https://youtu.be/xQM2ICCD94E
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  Yep, I confirmed that's it. Thanks!

dosy 7y ago

The word is dissident. You don't have activism in China, you only have (, ignoring all the regular people who just work hard and don't cause trouble) the state, its law and dissidents (who by definition are stupid people who want to go against the state and its law). You may not be stupid if you're an "activist" in America (but you probably still are ~ engagement not activism is much better), but if people call you an "activist" in China (ha!), then you're just someone who is dumb, because you fail to understand that State and its Law. I think I should clarify why these people are stupid. Because they ought to know that doing this is going to bring them a world of trouble, and achieve nothing, but they do so.

CharlesColeman 7y ago
> You don't have activism in China, you only have (, ignoring all the regular people who just work hard and don't cause trouble) the state, its law and dissidents (who by definition are stupid people who want to go against the state and its law).... > I think I should clarify why these people are stupid. Because they ought to know that doing this is going to bring them a world of trouble, and achieve nothing, but they do so. What you're describing as "stupidity" is properly called courage. From some (usually excessively selfish) perspectives it looks "stupid" to be courageous. However, it's is still rightly recognized as a positive and admirable trait, since the perspectives that would label it "stupid" are quite deficient, to put it mildly.
- vkou 7y ago
  It's only described as a positive and admirable trait when you agree with their politics.
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > It's only described as a positive and admirable trait when you agree with their politics. No, I don't think so. IMHO, that kind of thinking is just lazy cynicism.
jayess 7y ago

spraak 7y ago

r/socialism and r/communism have a strong narrative about this event, something like ... that "hardly anyone" was killed and that it was the unruly, disorganized students fault.

spraak 7y ago

It's amazing to me to see some people rationalize away the events that happened at Tianamen, in the same way people rationalize away/deny the Holocaust. My previous comment here was flagged and removed talking about the denialists' perspective, so to be clear I am not promoting that, I'm just relating my amazement at how it can be denied and ignored. I've spent some time reading the "real" truth about Tianamen from such sources, and I walk away shaken at how convincing it is. That I almost want to believe it. I don't know what to make of it; I guess just that it's interesting and amazing how beliefs are formed and hardened, and that nearly any perspective can be backed up with convincing evidence.

zwaps 7y ago

It's hilarious that you can go to jail for more than three years for "picking quarrels and provoking trouble”. "Deng was arrested on May 17 and police warned his family not to hire a lawyer, the rights group said in a statement." People defending China - look out. This is not a country that cares about justice or human rights.

xenospn 7y ago

China: "Nothing happened in Beijing 30 years ago" Also China: <Arrests people just in case>