5 ms·

I rather like my buildings' set up for this— We have passcarded doors and then inside we have gates like many subway stations do that are timed only long enoug

I rather like my buildings' set up for this— We have passcarded doors and then inside we have gates like many subway stations do that are timed only long enough for one person to pass through. So I can hold the door open for someone on the way in—especially if they have their badge out— but there's nothing I can do about those giant plexi gates once inside. They have to swipe.

Scoundreller 7y ago
The city of Toronto would like to hear from you. Our Subway turnstiles keep breaking. And since they’re entry and exit, there’s many methods to enter by triggering the exit side, from umbrellas to a small dog.
- hatchnyc 7y ago
  The German U-Bahn has a brilliant solution to this. No turnstiles or gates, you're just expected to have a ticket. The penalty for getting caught without a ticket is considered sufficiently high to make "Schwarzfahren" statistically more expensive.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    "Screw 'em hard enough for breaking the rules and they'll follow the rules out of fear" is generally not considered to be a good model for organizational policy.
    - hatchnyc 7y ago
      ??? But the alternative solution employed around the world is metal bars...
    - baroffoos 7y ago
      For public transport it makes perfect sense. You don't care about people getting on for free, you care about ticket profits falling because of people getting on for free. If the fine is high enough that they totally cover all the lost profit from people not paying the you are doing well.
    - MRD85 7y ago
      I feel you've made a huge blanket statement here. Militaries are one organisation where the rules have really sharp teeth and it works well enough. In fact, military organisations have had strong selection pressure applied to them over the past few thousand years and heavy-handed punishments are the norm.
  - Thorrez 7y ago
    But I don't think that will work for corporate building security, where a single attacker could cause a large amount of damage, not just losing a ticket fare.
  - pcwalton 7y ago
    Same with Muni and Caltrain in the San Francisco area.
  - leiroigh 7y ago
    While I agree that the solution is brilliant (and obvious), I'd like to note that freeriding (Schwarzfahren) is not statistically more expensive in monetary terms (the fine is not that large, controls are not that frequent and tickets are not that cheap). The social stigma, unpredictability and inconvenience of having to pay the fine is a big part of it (not having a ticket is just stressful). Another part is that you don't need to prevent freeriding, nor recoup all the lost ticket sales. You just need enough of a nudge to keep most people honest most of the time.
    - Piskvorrr 7y ago
      Indeed. The city I live in has this random-fare-inspection system, and considered turnstiles. The study's result was surprising: the additional fare from mandatory inspections was much lower than the capital and ops cost. Of course, this depends on an overwhelming majority of people being honest. Obviously "not having too many unauthorized riders" is a very different objective from "only allowing authorized access and refusing all else".
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      This is how the GO Train system in metropolitan Toronto & southern Ontario works as well.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Very arguably, transit (literally) free-ridership isn't a problem. Nuisance riders are: disturbing peace, damaging proprty, assaulting passengers or staff. Police behaviour, not fares. (And have social and justice systems which can effectively deal with individuals in need of help or discipline / isolation.)
- chepaslaaa 7y ago
  In montréal I've seen people just pull the turnstile back a little and then get like a foot wide gap to walk right in.
- dsr_ 7y ago
  The City does not want to be sued by the estate of someone cut in half by a turnstile gate. This limits the available force and material strength. The specifications for those gates almost certainly include a requirement that they allow a sufficiently determined person through without breaking themselves, and probably sound an audible alert.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    True for turnstiles that open and close. New York's full-height subway gates are just metal revolving doors that only revolve enough for one person per card.
- xvedejas 7y ago
  BART gates are entry and exit, but require card entry on both entry and exit (there are separate emergency exits which set off alarms). So it's not possible to trick them to open, though their current configuration does make it easy to jump over.
  - daveFNbuck 7y ago
    I haven't been on BART in a few years, but I remember many stations having a wheelchair entrance that anyone could go through if security wasn't watching.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Hahaha. Tell me about it. I live and work in Toronto and use Sherbourne station every day. 80% of their gates are currently under maintenance. The gates at my work are enter/exit as well but we have to swipe out.
snug 7y ago
A company I worked for just had revolving doors for all entrances
- close04 7y ago
  Some revolving door systems (not the ones you mean, probably) actually improve a lot on the classic turnstiles or gates. They allow one authorized person to pass from one side through but sensors on both sides can easily detect if another person is trying to piggy back from the other side of the door. And there's no way over or around them. In higher security environments where unauthorized persons getting on the other side of the door is already an unacceptable risk they can also allow security personnel to trap someone in the door (rotate only 90 degrees). And as far as usability and efficiency goes, they can allow traffic both ways at the same time (as long as both people are authorized).
  - snug 7y ago
    That's exactly the ones that I mean :)
Terr_ 7y ago
It might be easier to try detection (and embarrassing alarms) instead of physical prevention. For example, floor sensors could detect when multiple sets of feet are enter on the same activation. Granted, they might not know the difference between one person and a handcart versus two people where one is in a wheelchair, but I doubt many would-be infiltrators would draw attention to themselves that way.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- singron 7y ago
  I know for a fact that people will ignore it and set off the alarm anyway even with a large sign covering the entire top half of the door. Then the alarm goes off so often that all the bystanders ignore it too, so there really is no point.

Scoundreller 7y ago

The city of Toronto would like to hear from you. Our Subway turnstiles keep breaking. And since they’re entry and exit, there’s many methods to enter by triggering the exit side, from umbrellas to a small dog.

hatchnyc 7y ago
The German U-Bahn has a brilliant solution to this. No turnstiles or gates, you're just expected to have a ticket. The penalty for getting caught without a ticket is considered sufficiently high to make "Schwarzfahren" statistically more expensive.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  "Screw 'em hard enough for breaking the rules and they'll follow the rules out of fear" is generally not considered to be a good model for organizational policy.
  - hatchnyc 7y ago
    ??? But the alternative solution employed around the world is metal bars...
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    For public transport it makes perfect sense. You don't care about people getting on for free, you care about ticket profits falling because of people getting on for free. If the fine is high enough that they totally cover all the lost profit from people not paying the you are doing well.
  - MRD85 7y ago
    I feel you've made a huge blanket statement here. Militaries are one organisation where the rules have really sharp teeth and it works well enough. In fact, military organisations have had strong selection pressure applied to them over the past few thousand years and heavy-handed punishments are the norm.
- Thorrez 7y ago
  But I don't think that will work for corporate building security, where a single attacker could cause a large amount of damage, not just losing a ticket fare.
- pcwalton 7y ago
  Same with Muni and Caltrain in the San Francisco area.
- leiroigh 7y ago
  While I agree that the solution is brilliant (and obvious), I'd like to note that freeriding (Schwarzfahren) is not statistically more expensive in monetary terms (the fine is not that large, controls are not that frequent and tickets are not that cheap). The social stigma, unpredictability and inconvenience of having to pay the fine is a big part of it (not having a ticket is just stressful). Another part is that you don't need to prevent freeriding, nor recoup all the lost ticket sales. You just need enough of a nudge to keep most people honest most of the time.
  - Piskvorrr 7y ago
    Indeed. The city I live in has this random-fare-inspection system, and considered turnstiles. The study's result was surprising: the additional fare from mandatory inspections was much lower than the capital and ops cost. Of course, this depends on an overwhelming majority of people being honest. Obviously "not having too many unauthorized riders" is a very different objective from "only allowing authorized access and refusing all else".
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    This is how the GO Train system in metropolitan Toronto & southern Ontario works as well.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Very arguably, transit (literally) free-ridership isn't a problem. Nuisance riders are: disturbing peace, damaging proprty, assaulting passengers or staff. Police behaviour, not fares. (And have social and justice systems which can effectively deal with individuals in need of help or discipline / isolation.)
chepaslaaa 7y ago
In montréal I've seen people just pull the turnstile back a little and then get like a foot wide gap to walk right in.
dsr_ 7y ago
The City does not want to be sued by the estate of someone cut in half by a turnstile gate. This limits the available force and material strength. The specifications for those gates almost certainly include a requirement that they allow a sufficiently determined person through without breaking themselves, and probably sound an audible alert.
- closeparen 7y ago
  True for turnstiles that open and close. New York's full-height subway gates are just metal revolving doors that only revolve enough for one person per card.
xvedejas 7y ago
BART gates are entry and exit, but require card entry on both entry and exit (there are separate emergency exits which set off alarms). So it's not possible to trick them to open, though their current configuration does make it easy to jump over.
- daveFNbuck 7y ago
  I haven't been on BART in a few years, but I remember many stations having a wheelchair entrance that anyone could go through if security wasn't watching.
52-6F-62 7y ago
Hahaha. Tell me about it. I live and work in Toronto and use Sherbourne station every day. 80% of their gates are currently under maintenance. The gates at my work are enter/exit as well but we have to swipe out.

snug 7y ago

A company I worked for just had revolving doors for all entrances

close04 7y ago
Some revolving door systems (not the ones you mean, probably) actually improve a lot on the classic turnstiles or gates. They allow one authorized person to pass from one side through but sensors on both sides can easily detect if another person is trying to piggy back from the other side of the door. And there's no way over or around them. In higher security environments where unauthorized persons getting on the other side of the door is already an unacceptable risk they can also allow security personnel to trap someone in the door (rotate only 90 degrees). And as far as usability and efficiency goes, they can allow traffic both ways at the same time (as long as both people are authorized).
- snug 7y ago
  That's exactly the ones that I mean :)

Terr_ 7y ago

It might be easier to try detection (and embarrassing alarms) instead of physical prevention. For example, floor sensors could detect when multiple sets of feet are enter on the same activation. Granted, they might not know the difference between one person and a handcart versus two people where one is in a wheelchair, but I doubt many would-be infiltrators would draw attention to themselves that way.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
singron 7y ago
I know for a fact that people will ignore it and set off the alarm anyway even with a large sign covering the entire top half of the door. Then the alarm goes off so often that all the bystanders ignore it too, so there really is no point.