5 ms·

> When a bargoer visits another PatronScan bar and swipes their ID, their previously flagged transgressions will pop up on the kiosk screen. Unless patrons succ

by koolba 7y ago

> When a bargoer visits another PatronScan bar and swipes their ID, their previously flagged transgressions will pop up on the kiosk screen. Unless patrons successfully appeal their status to PatronScan or the bar directly, their status can follow them for anywhere from a couple weeks to a few months, to much, much longer. “Appeal” to a private company to seek what’s effectively forced arbitration only ends one way en masse. This sounds horrible. I hope there’s some legit privacy regulations passed to ban passive practices like this. Scanning an ID locally to check for duplicates that night sounds reasonable. Auto uploading it without notifying patrons to a central DB is not.

kevin_b_er 7y ago
Under political goals of the removal of regulations and privatization, this will increasingly become the norm. Under private interests, you have no fundamental rights because the writers of founding document of the United States didn't not foresee the level of control the rich and corporate would truly have in this modern era. It offers no protection against abuse by powerful private interests that it does against government.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  >because the writers of founding document of the United States didn't not foresee the level of control the rich and corporate would truly have in this modern era They did, that's why they limited the power of the federal government to interstate commerce and defence. It was later generations that decided interstate commerce means activities that take place in a single state[0] and that we should use legal trickery to get around the protections they created. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
mc32 7y ago
That’s a problem. It’s also a problem that for something that can be a violation or misdemeanor can follow you across state and international boundaries... On another note, how are 18 - 20 year olds going to get into bars? I guess the wristband/no drinks will be the norm for them.
sneak 7y ago
Ultimately, it is up to the bar to decide whether or not they want to use this system. Their bar, their rules. I show my ID to bouncers, in my hand, to avoid the common practice these days of putting it into a scanner and logging my data. If that’s not good enough for them, I go somewhere else.
- onion2k 7y ago
  Ultimately, it is up to the bar to decide whether or not they want to use this system. Their bar, their rules. How long will it be before company behind it are lobbying cities to make it a license requirement for every bar to use their system?
  - droithomme 7y ago
    > How long will it be before company behind it are lobbying cities to make it a license requirement for every bar to use their system? According to the article, it's zero minutes, because it specifically says they are already doing that lobbying. This won't be just for bars, it'll be for restaurants that serve beer, liquor stores, gas stations, and supermarkets. Any place selling alcohol, cigarettes, spray paint, knives, guns, etc., anything that requires id.
smelendez 7y ago
> Scanning an ID locally to check for duplicates that night sounds reasonable. Potentially? What if a customer leaves and then comes back after a shift change?
- phkahler 7y ago
  Stamp their arm when they exit.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- droithomme 7y ago
  I don't comprehend this duplicates thing. If your face and body doesn't match the photo and appearance description on the license, then the bouncer should reject you at that point. Using the machine suggests all they are doing is running the scan, pulling your data, and giving a green or red light to enter. So you can be a 16 yr old boy and come in with the id of his 89 yr old great-grandmother and the machine gives a green light because the id isn't fake. Unless the bouncer is looking at the photo. And now you don't need to scan and store for duplicates because the bouncer will catch that you're not the person on the id. Databases, hand stamping, and other methods are all much more complex and less effective and sensible than the bouncer simply checking the id.
  - liability 7y ago
    Exactly right. The "duplicate ID" narrative is a BS non-issue being used to pretty up this nonsense with a "think of the children" angle.
  - smelendez 7y ago
    You could conceivably have a situation where a 21-year-old exits the bar, slips his ID to his similar looking 19-year-old brother or cousin, and gets him into the bar. I'm sure this happens, but I doubt it's really a major problem.
    - 7y ago
_jal 7y ago
Look down the road a bit. This is the "social credit system" for western nations forming. I only know how this works in the US, so I'm concentrating on it. Firms like this that succeed will be bought out and rolled in to the existing credit firms as new dimensions. (They already track much more than your credit use - google "experian data services", and substitute the other two in as well.) It is private, so in the US there is little regulation to worry about. And the third-party doctrine means no warrants are required for LEO access. Can you smell the freedom yet?
- trophycase 7y ago
  This is the real issue IMO. Any time I see people complain about data breaches or something they seem to be missing the point and diverting away from the true issues
- basementcat 7y ago
  No worries. Just don't forget to get your free annual "Drink Establishment Behavior Report" free from Experian/Equifax/TransUnion if you live in New York or California. Alternatively, just pay a low low price of $1 a month for our "Bar Behavior Report" monitoring service!
- metildaa 7y ago
  R Place in Seattle uses an internet connected ID scanning system. Super sketchy, they do not ask consent to scan or answer any questions about how data is handled. Programs like this will make it much easier to round up LGBTQ people like myself, enabled by shortsighted management of these spaces implementing mass data collection.
- m463 7y ago
  One way to weasel out of this is basically the "grocery store loyalty card" method. Instead of discriminating against people, they could pre-select patrons and move the rest to the end of the bar bouncer's line.
magduf 7y ago
I don't see the problem here. Bars presumably are free to use this system or not, and no one really needs to go to bars anyway. This isn't like being prevented from shopping at a grocery store or getting to work. Honestly, if this system ended up causing a bunch of bars to go out of business, I'd be laughing. Maybe people should find a better way to spend their time than getting drunk.
- xvector 7y ago
  It is a social credit system. Social credit systems degrade society.
  - mymythisisthis 7y ago
    Agreed that social credit systems degrade society. Did you ever notice that nice restaurants attract nice customers, and that scummy looking places attract scum. we are perfectly adept at governing ourselves already. It's a solution looking for a problem.
- dazzawazza 7y ago
  If you think bars are just for people getting drunk then I think you are the one with the problem.
- bluntfang 7y ago
  >Bars presumably are free to use this system or not, and no one really needs to go to bars anyway. Until insurance premiums require the service if you want to be able to afford to operate a bar.
  - jstarfish 7y ago
    We now have bars where people can drink and fling axes around indoors. If the insurance premiums weren't high enough to stop that from happening, I don't see abstaining from user tracking keeping anybody's pub out of business.
    - 7y ago
donarb 7y ago
This happens all the time with people who apply for bank accounts. Chex Systems provides a vetting service for banks. If you ever have a checking account closed by the bank, they report you to Chex Systems who then blacklist you for five years from getting another checking account at the 95% of banks which use Chex. No appealing, no explanation, just blacklisting. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/blacklisted-by-chexsystems-what-to-know/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/blacklisted-by-chexs...
- elbasti 7y ago
  Chex is subject to the FCRA, so at the very least one should be able to appeal (Chex) on the basis of inaccurate information, and to get a report from Chex explaining the information they have on you. As well, if a bank denies you a checking account due to a Chex report, the bank is under obligation of letting you know why (again, thanks to the FCRA). Now, this doesn't mean that it's _fair_ (it isn't), but the law does offer you some measure of transparency.
NullPrefix 7y ago
Wouldn't be a problem if GDPR worked in US too.

by koolba 7y ago

kevin_b_er 7y ago

Under political goals of the removal of regulations and privatization, this will increasingly become the norm. Under private interests, you have no fundamental rights because the writers of founding document of the United States didn't not foresee the level of control the rich and corporate would truly have in this modern era. It offers no protection against abuse by powerful private interests that it does against government.

fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
>because the writers of founding document of the United States didn't not foresee the level of control the rich and corporate would truly have in this modern era They did, that's why they limited the power of the federal government to interstate commerce and defence. It was later generations that decided interstate commerce means activities that take place in a single state[0] and that we should use legal trickery to get around the protections they created. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

mc32 7y ago

That’s a problem. It’s also a problem that for something that can be a violation or misdemeanor can follow you across state and international boundaries... On another note, how are 18 - 20 year olds going to get into bars? I guess the wristband/no drinks will be the norm for them.

sneak 7y ago

Ultimately, it is up to the bar to decide whether or not they want to use this system. Their bar, their rules. I show my ID to bouncers, in my hand, to avoid the common practice these days of putting it into a scanner and logging my data. If that’s not good enough for them, I go somewhere else.

onion2k 7y ago
Ultimately, it is up to the bar to decide whether or not they want to use this system. Their bar, their rules. How long will it be before company behind it are lobbying cities to make it a license requirement for every bar to use their system?
- droithomme 7y ago
  > How long will it be before company behind it are lobbying cities to make it a license requirement for every bar to use their system? According to the article, it's zero minutes, because it specifically says they are already doing that lobbying. This won't be just for bars, it'll be for restaurants that serve beer, liquor stores, gas stations, and supermarkets. Any place selling alcohol, cigarettes, spray paint, knives, guns, etc., anything that requires id.

smelendez 7y ago

> Scanning an ID locally to check for duplicates that night sounds reasonable. Potentially? What if a customer leaves and then comes back after a shift change?

phkahler 7y ago
Stamp their arm when they exit.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
droithomme 7y ago
I don't comprehend this duplicates thing. If your face and body doesn't match the photo and appearance description on the license, then the bouncer should reject you at that point. Using the machine suggests all they are doing is running the scan, pulling your data, and giving a green or red light to enter. So you can be a 16 yr old boy and come in with the id of his 89 yr old great-grandmother and the machine gives a green light because the id isn't fake. Unless the bouncer is looking at the photo. And now you don't need to scan and store for duplicates because the bouncer will catch that you're not the person on the id. Databases, hand stamping, and other methods are all much more complex and less effective and sensible than the bouncer simply checking the id.
- liability 7y ago
  Exactly right. The "duplicate ID" narrative is a BS non-issue being used to pretty up this nonsense with a "think of the children" angle.
- smelendez 7y ago
  You could conceivably have a situation where a 21-year-old exits the bar, slips his ID to his similar looking 19-year-old brother or cousin, and gets him into the bar. I'm sure this happens, but I doubt it's really a major problem.
  - 7y ago

_jal 7y ago

Look down the road a bit. This is the "social credit system" for western nations forming. I only know how this works in the US, so I'm concentrating on it. Firms like this that succeed will be bought out and rolled in to the existing credit firms as new dimensions. (They already track much more than your credit use - google "experian data services", and substitute the other two in as well.) It is private, so in the US there is little regulation to worry about. And the third-party doctrine means no warrants are required for LEO access. Can you smell the freedom yet?

trophycase 7y ago
This is the real issue IMO. Any time I see people complain about data breaches or something they seem to be missing the point and diverting away from the true issues
basementcat 7y ago
No worries. Just don't forget to get your free annual "Drink Establishment Behavior Report" free from Experian/Equifax/TransUnion if you live in New York or California. Alternatively, just pay a low low price of $1 a month for our "Bar Behavior Report" monitoring service!
metildaa 7y ago
R Place in Seattle uses an internet connected ID scanning system. Super sketchy, they do not ask consent to scan or answer any questions about how data is handled. Programs like this will make it much easier to round up LGBTQ people like myself, enabled by shortsighted management of these spaces implementing mass data collection.
m463 7y ago
One way to weasel out of this is basically the "grocery store loyalty card" method. Instead of discriminating against people, they could pre-select patrons and move the rest to the end of the bar bouncer's line.

magduf 7y ago

I don't see the problem here. Bars presumably are free to use this system or not, and no one really needs to go to bars anyway. This isn't like being prevented from shopping at a grocery store or getting to work. Honestly, if this system ended up causing a bunch of bars to go out of business, I'd be laughing. Maybe people should find a better way to spend their time than getting drunk.

xvector 7y ago
It is a social credit system. Social credit systems degrade society.
- mymythisisthis 7y ago
  Agreed that social credit systems degrade society. Did you ever notice that nice restaurants attract nice customers, and that scummy looking places attract scum. we are perfectly adept at governing ourselves already. It's a solution looking for a problem.
dazzawazza 7y ago
If you think bars are just for people getting drunk then I think you are the one with the problem.
bluntfang 7y ago
>Bars presumably are free to use this system or not, and no one really needs to go to bars anyway. Until insurance premiums require the service if you want to be able to afford to operate a bar.
- jstarfish 7y ago
  We now have bars where people can drink and fling axes around indoors. If the insurance premiums weren't high enough to stop that from happening, I don't see abstaining from user tracking keeping anybody's pub out of business.
  - 7y ago

donarb 7y ago

This happens all the time with people who apply for bank accounts. Chex Systems provides a vetting service for banks. If you ever have a checking account closed by the bank, they report you to Chex Systems who then blacklist you for five years from getting another checking account at the 95% of banks which use Chex. No appealing, no explanation, just blacklisting. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/blacklisted-by-chexsystems-what-to-know/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/blacklisted-by-chexs...

elbasti 7y ago
Chex is subject to the FCRA, so at the very least one should be able to appeal (Chex) on the basis of inaccurate information, and to get a report from Chex explaining the information they have on you. As well, if a bank denies you a checking account due to a Chex report, the bank is under obligation of letting you know why (again, thanks to the FCRA). Now, this doesn't mean that it's _fair_ (it isn't), but the law does offer you some measure of transparency.

NullPrefix 7y ago

Wouldn't be a problem if GDPR worked in US too.