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The preachers getting rich from poor Americans

135 points by thisone 7y ago

justAlittleCom 7y ago
Fixed it : Richs getting rich from poors. You're welcome
dessant 7y ago
This is the John Oliver segment the article is referencing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg
umvi 7y ago
What I don't like is when people point to this as a reason why all religion is bad. These are con artists, plain and simple. It would be like if someone on QVC conned tons of people into buying magnets because "science proves this will increase your energy levels" and then I used that as a reason to write off all of science. Target vulnerable people, get them to pay you money, profit. So many dishonest people exploit this formula from televangelists to email spammers.
- AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
  This is normal. Everything has its dark sides: religion, science and even software engineering. My personal problem is the lack of convincing arguments that religion is good.
  - challenger22 7y ago
    Religious people are happier than non-religious people. This replicates fairly well across many countries. This should be a fairly convincing argument all on its own. It is entirely possible to be religious without rejecting rationalism, as well, if you accept God as a metaphorical construct. Religious people are also more charitable. If you break down the numbers, this increased charity is not just benefitting the church. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religio... https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/30/religious-people-more-likely-give-charity-study/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/30/religious-p... https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Give-More/153973 https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Giv...
    - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
      Religious people are happier than non-religious people. Interestingly, when we start talking about countries, not individual people, the trend reverses: atheistic countries are the happiest. https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/the-2018-un-world-happiness-report-most-atheistic-and-socially-well-off-countries-are-the-happiest-while-religious-countries-are-poor-and-unhappy/ https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/the-2018...
      - vekker 7y ago
        Obviously there are many other factors for happiness. To say anything about the effect of religion on happiness, ideally you would compare people in the same region, in similar circumstances.
      - arethuza 7y ago
        Certainly as a Scot I would not naturally associate "religion" and "happiness".... Edit: I'm talking about my experience of religion in Scotland, which is a bit grim and dour, not the rather cheerful kind that they seem to have in the US :-)
      - challenger22 7y ago
        >Of course correlations are not causation, and the negative correlation that I expect between religiosity and happiness does not mean that atheism makes people happier, or religion unhappier. What it means—and this is supported by several sociological studies (see here for one)—is likely that people either turn to religion or maintain their religion when their social situation is so dire that they’re unhappy. When conditions are good, and there’s lots of social support, including help for sick people, old people, free medical care, and so on, then there’s no need to be religious, no need to supplicate a god for what your society can’t provide. When you’re well off, your country gradually loses religion, the thesis of Norris and Inglehart in the preceding link. >In short, what makes people happy is not religion, but material well being and the assurance of material aid. That’s supported by the study’s finding that immigrants, including Muslims from the Middle East, quickly gain the happiness of their new country, while (I suspect), still keeping their religion, though perhaps in an attenuated form. This does not contradict my point- if you live in rural Appalachia, there's a good chance you have a pretty hardscrabble life. Religion is adaptive in this circumstance, and you can become happier by becoming religious. The author of the article you linked also goes on to quote Marx, saying that abolishing religion is curing the masses of their opium addiction, and curing them of their delusions. I would argue that irreligious people are just as delusional, but with different failure modes. Apathy, nihilism, and lack of a sense of self dominate the irreligious; moral absolutism dominates the religious.
  - nostalgk 7y ago
    Spoken as a non-religious person, religion gives a lot of people something to rely on and a base foundation of ethics and morals from an early age. It also opens many people to reading and philosophy, and can create a great sense of community in healthy environments.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      When I was a wee boy here in Scotland our primary school teacher for our class of 12 was an ex WW2 Spitfire pilot - we read the bible every day. For some odd reason we only ever read the old testament and generally the bits where people are being rather beastly to one another. I do believe that dear old Mr C might have been trying to teach us a lesson about the reality of religious beliefs. [NB I grew up in a small quite religious community where things like cycling, playing football, hanging out clothes to dry (and probably humour) were effectively banned on Sundays].
      - Fellshard 7y ago
        If you read a book on the Third Reich, would you suppose it was being raised as a positive example? In a similar way, a great deal of the Old Testament is presenting history, not condoning those beastly actions (and, indeed, often directly and straightforwardly condemning them). Context is vital.
        arethuza 7y ago
        Well, that was rather my point - I suspect he was condemning them. Certainly he never usually mentioned anything to do with his service in WW2 or anything like that - he was a conspicuously decent guy.
        Fellshard 7y ago
        Fair enough, and good to hear about. Others use that to condemn the book as barbaric as a whole, which misses the point. Couldn't tell which you were implying.
    - 7y ago
  - galangalalgol 7y ago
    In "virus of the mind" one of Dawkins' students argues religion is more like a symbiote with both benefits and burdens on the host. His arguments seemed reasonable when I read it but I have forgotten them.
  - jorangreef 7y ago
    I think your point is genuine, but would it be fair to rephrase your personal problem as the lack of convincing arguments... as far as you are aware? Also, just to point out something you take for granted: You use the word "good" in your argument. What is your standard of "good"ness? Is it an objective, universal, absolute standard of good and evil? Or is it whatever the loudest voice in the room demands it to be?
    - username90 7y ago
      Religion is not philosophy. We can have a concept of moral and good without belief in a god or something supernatural. For humans, everyone agrees that society is nicer to live in when people are nice to each other. So teaching people to be nice to each other lies in everyone's interests, a God serves no purpose here. Note that there are Christian and Buddhist philosophy etc which is useful. However, that is philosophy and not religion. You can believe in the golden rule without being christian. You can agree with the teachings of Jesus without believing that he is the son of God. You can read the Bible without thinking that it is anything more than ancient pop-culture. Also, you can believe that some things are "good" without believing in a god. So as far as we know Religion is no better than snake oil. The main purpose of snake oil is to redistribute resources from naive people to conmen. Snake oil might have some positive placebo benefits, and maybe snake oil inspired some people to pursue medicine and help people for real, but snake oil is still just snake oil.
      - jorangreef 7y ago
        "We can have a concept of moral and good without belief in a god" Sure, but how would that be an objective, universal, absolute standard of good and evil? You claim philosophy, and yet this is an age-old philosophical problem. For example, see Hume's guillotine, i.e. Hume's is-ought distinction. "teaching people to be nice to each other lies in everyone's interests, a God serves no purpose here." Is truth determined by fact and reason, or merely by the purpose it serves?
  - francisofascii 7y ago
    Religion offers an alternative to a life based on self interest. To love others, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, give to the poor, care for prisoners, the elderly, the addicts, etc.
- Jedd 7y ago
  Totally agree - it's a poor explanation to explain why religion is bad, especially as there's so many other, better explanations.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  > What I don't like is when people point to this as a reason why all religion is bad. Agreed - it's a pretty weak argument compared to some of the others (terrorism, pedophilia, genocide etc.)
- fredley 7y ago
  Atheists are not immune from scams, this is just a scam that targets Christians. It also happens to operate with the implicit approval of TV networks, and the law/state in general. I don't think the article casts religion as a whole as bad at any point.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    The rest of this thread on the other hand.... I think the commenter here was right to get out in front of the ire and proselytizing.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  You see similar, but less egregious, behaviour in other religious contexts. In the small, poorish town where I grew up there were 10 churches for a town of 1300 people. The town of 400 that was ten miles down the road had 3 churches. This was a huge, one might say parasitic, drain on a town made up of farmers, railway workers, assorted stores, failing restaurants, etc. As attendance fell, the churches started demanding more and more money from their congregations to make up the shortfall. My former church, a Catholic Church, is one of the worst. There are still 7 churches operating in that town.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Maybe you could argue that they provided a better service to the community when they had better representation. Now they are in a recession and people flight to put it in economic terms.
  - euroclydon 7y ago
    Churches have a legacy of being the focal point in a community. It's no more surprising that a small town would have that many churches than it is that they would have bars or community centers. Society is changing. Small towns are getting smaller as kids move away. Also, church attendance is down as people go to Starbucks instead. It will balance out over time.
    - Ensorceled 7y ago
      That's not how small towns work. When I was a kid there was 1 bar, 2 restaurants, 4 community centers (arena, legion, golden age home, library), 2 schools and 10 churches. The largest building the town was the middle school. The next 3 by size were churches.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Well you can think about it as a simple market. There is a demand for salvation and there is a supply provided by the con artists. The price is set based on market dynamics. This is why a particular religion hates psychologists, they do not like competition.
- nathan_long 7y ago
  Exactly. Evangelical Christians have also denounced this kind of con many times. Eg via a documentary: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/american-gospel-blows-hole-prosperity-gospel/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/american-gospel-b... A sermon clip with more than a million views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s A rap which drew a lot of attention when published: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4WevY-GPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4WevY-GPU An explainer article: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-know-about-the-prosperity-gospel/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-k... A church journal issue dedicated to the subject: https://www.9marks.org/journal/prosperity-gospel/ https://www.9marks.org/journal/prosperity-gospel/ An article by the nephew of one of these con artists, explaining why he left the racket: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/october/benny-hinn-costi-uncle-prosperity-preaching-testimony.html https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/october/benny-hinn... And the list goes on and on. There are many ongoing efforts to combat this kind of false teaching. Jesus' own teaching and that of his first followers were quite clear on the point that greed is sinful and dangerous, and that love and generosity to the needy, not wealth and success, should characterize Christians. [Luk 12:15, 33-34 ESV] 15 And he said to them, "Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." ... 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [1Ti 6:9-10 ESV] But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. [Eph 4:28 ESV] 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. [Phl 2:3-4 ESV] 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. [Jas 1:27 ESV] 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. [1Jo 3:16-18 ESV] 16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. Prosperity teaching sells a parody of Christianity. It preys on those whose faith and knowledge of scripture is too shallow to tell the difference.
- nvarsj 7y ago
  All religion isn’t bad. But it’s the perfect vehicle for con artists. The government even encourages it by making religious based cons tax free.
- hoseja 7y ago
  Religious upbringing installs backdoors that these scammers exploit.
- hawkesnest 7y ago
  Religion is "bad" in the eyes of many for completely legitimate reasons, not just because of the opportunity for fraud.
  - kcmastrpc 7y ago
    Not legitimate at all, they're just as dogmatic and disillusioned as those they purport to despise.
    - hawkesnest 7y ago
      Despise? Maybe some, but probably as many religious folks who despise nonbelievers. What are nonbelievers dogmatic and disillusioned about, exactly?
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  One thing that bothers me is that churches still get special status. When you look at the Catholic Church it’s pretty much guaranteed that any other organization would have been shut down a long time ago if it had shown the same behavior in light of child abuse. Churches should be treated like any other organization but I think there is still a lot of reluctance to do so.
  - kcmastrpc 7y ago
    The vast majority of churches are net positives for their communities, this applies to _all_ churches. Are you saying the local Islamic centre, or protestant church should suffer because of the corruption in the Catholic organization?
    - ones_and_zeros 7y ago
      May be just a personal opinion but I don't consider paying taxes on vast amounts of wealth or the land you own in support of a community to be suffering.
      - harimau777 7y ago
        Would requirement to pay these taxes also apply to secular non-profits?
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      No. What I am saying is that the Catholic Church should have been shut down or forced to clean up their act. And other churches who do bad stuff should be treated like secular organizations who do bad stuff. Right now if you call yourself a “church” you can get away with things other organizations can’t.
      - kcmastrpc 7y ago
        Tell that to the branch davidians.
- Zigurd 7y ago
  Don't excuse "established religion" so quickly. With the accumulation of prestige and power comes even greater crimes: https://buffalonews.com/2019/05/19/why-buffalos-child-molesting-priests-werent-arrested/ https://buffalonews.com/2019/05/19/why-buffalos-child-molest...
  - umvi 7y ago
    Oh, I know. I am religious, but I do not agree with all religions. I think some are better than others and even think some religious organizations are evil (like Scientology). But, I feel religion has given me enormous benefits in life - it's helped me focus less on myself, it's given me a profound sense of identity and purpose in life. I don't feel that it has hindered my career or love of learning/science/engineering at all. I think it could help a lot of people who struggle with lack of sense of purpose/identity/community, etc. So I don't like it when all religion is condemned because of bad actors in some religions. To use an imperfect analogy, I don't like it when people use logic like this: "All projects on GitHub are bad. Look at all these poorly written packages: X, Y, Z. Look at all these bigoted project maintainers. Did you know X project was a front for human trafficking? There is no reason for me to explore and contribute to projects on GitHub when there are so many compelling reasons to the contrary."
    - tasuki 7y ago
      It appears to me you believe in belief. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Belief_in_belief https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Belief_in_belief
    - socks 7y ago
      Having grown up religious, I used to think this way. In my family, I now see people coming up against real hardship, and because their purpose in life is so deeply rooted in religion, they don't know how to cope with things emotionally (instead, trying to defer the emotional toll of those things, believing that their god will handle it)... and they make strange decisions, things go horribly, they are left struggling to comprehend. They live as if they are on a rollercoaster of hope, anticipation, crisis, disappointment, recovery, hope. In my own experience, having your self worth and sense of identity attached to religion is a fragile existence, especially if you are logically inclined.
- deleted 7y ago
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- Bakary 7y ago
  The problem is that, as "edgy" as this statement might sound, it's genuinely hard to draw the line between the con and the real thing. This doesn't appear to be qualitatively different from the Church's system of indulgences, to name one example. Religious organizations have a clear incentive to generate money. At least with science, you can point to actual inventions and innovations that have a measurable and noticeable impact. Religion can and does have a beneficial impact especially in poor regions, but it does so independently of whether its teachings have any particular truth to them. If the world were reset somehow, you'd end up with a completely different set of religious beliefs that would nonetheless have a similar role as a social bonding agent, whereas you would have a decent chance of the same research being done again if the scientific method does end up being developed in the world.
  - umvi 7y ago
    > If the world were reset somehow, you'd end up with a completely different set of religious beliefs that would nonetheless have a similar role as a social bonding agent, whereas you would have a decent chance of the same research being done again if the scientific method does end up being developed in the world. This statement is made from the assumption that God doesn't exist and that all religions are equally false. From my perspective, I would argue that if you reset the world, yes, purely man-made religions would disappear and be replaced by different (man-made) ones, but ultimately God's true religion would always re-emerge. For example, in my completely biased opinion, religions like Scientology and Buddism would disappear on world reset to possibly be replaced with some roughly equivalent man-made belief systems under different names (or not). But Christianity (insert the "true" religion here) would persist on world reset (perhaps even under the same name), and the entire Abrahamic-family of religions would re-emerge under different names. They might not be known as "Judaism" or "Islam" or "Protestantism" but basically God would call Abraham-esque prophets to establish his religion, the religion would go off the rails, false prophets would emerge, people would try to restore the church to it's previous state, God would re-establish with new prophets, etc., and you would be left with hundreds of similar prophet-based religions all in the same family of religions, all worshiping the same God, all acknowledging a common set of scripture (which would have the same core religious beliefs as the pre-reset world did), all acknowledging a common set of (ancient) prophets, but with varying dogmatic differences due to aforementioned corruptions.
- gameswithgo 7y ago
  You don't need to appeal to anything like this to see why religion is bad. Its just straight up crazy. I spend decades of my life trying to have deep arguments about this with people on the internet and elsewhere before it occurred to me that its so obviously crazy that trying to have deep discussions about it are a waste of time. Imagine trying to convince someone that Thor isn't real. That is how crazy it is no matter what religion you are talking about.
- mikeash 7y ago
  The difference is that science trains people to be skeptical and challenge all claims, whereas religion leaves people ripe for being taken advantage of by training people to believe weird and unverifiable claims from people with the right title.
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auiya 7y ago
If you travel through rural America, it's quite telling to see all the township money spent on churches and government buildings, while the residences and public infrastructure sit in dilapidation. Frequently the people from these areas claim to be fiscally conservative, so one would think there would be more demand for the collective spending they do to be more beneficial to the community, rather than those perpetuating the exploitation.
- deadbunny 7y ago
  You can't spend money on helping the community, that's basically communism! /s
- luckylion 7y ago
  The churches are funded by public money?
  - simonh 7y ago
    I think 'Township money' just means the resources of the community.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      Possibly. I guess op has a very different understanding of "collective spending" than people that consider themselves "fiscally conservative".
      - auiya 7y ago
        Collective spending in this case != elective spending. Taxes are compulsory, church tithes are not, but the end result is the same - the exploitation of the lower and middle class.
        luckylion 7y ago
        There is no "collective spending" when the spending isn't done by "the collective". To argue that "some people spend money, those people are part of the collective, therefore the collective spends that money" just removes all value from the terms. Sure, the "worldwide collective" spends money on everything ...
tossawayonphine 7y ago
what about outfits like hillsong. those parishiners dont look poor to me. picking on rural america is short sighted and ignorant.
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apo 7y ago
These stories are hard to process because there appears to be such blatant abuse, exploitation, and stupidity. > A couple of years later, the Federal Communications Commission reportedly came close to introducing a "truth-in-advertising" clause for religious solicitations. This would have meant that any claims of boosting finances or curing disease would have to be verifiable, and Ole took various trips to Washington to lobby for it. The thing that's easily forgotten is that any sufficiently-advanced con is indistinguishable from religion.
torgian 7y ago
I remember when I was a teen, the church we went to had an elderly couple that taught “Awana”, a children’s group. A few months the after they started teaching, their daughters, upon turning 18, accused their parents of sexual abuse. The church tried to keep it quiet and said “we cannot judge. God will judge weather it is truth or falsehood.” And they allowed the elderly couple to continue teaching children. I don’t know what happened after that since I decided to stop going to church after that. Bullshit like this happens more often than people think.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Our daughter’s (very liberal and secular) school recently launched an investigation into sexual abuse of students by teachers over a period of many years back in the 1970s. It was well known at the time, of course, people just were discouraged from making waves or doing anything about it. Sexual abuse was widespread back then, and it was uniformly suppressed, regardless of the sort of community. (Frankly, it still is.)
- euroclydon 7y ago
  Small churches have even less accountability, structure and resources than small municipalities, who routinely abuse their criminal justice responsibilities. The Southern Baptist Convention is finally looking to dedicate some of their resources to investigations and action on the sexual abuse that's been happening in their (very loosely affiliated churches), but it will be tough sledding. https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2019/02/18/southern-baptist-convention-president-greear-reform-sexual-abuse-crisis/2905893002/ https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2019/02/18/so...
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  > Bullshit like this happens more often than people think. I would argue that this does not. I don't know anyone who goes to church who would have allowed this to go on without alerting the authorities. Assuming your recollection is true, this was just a group of bad people being bad under the false pretense of being a "Church". Look, bad people are everywhere. And just because someone calls himself a Christian doesn't mean he is.
kazinator 7y ago
Using "poor" as synonym for "stupid" seems kind of insulting to poor people who don't happen to be stupid.
Hasknewbie 7y ago
Something that should be pointed out and that is specific to the US: the legal status of religion there invites that type of behaviour. As John Oliver noted in the segment mentioned, the law is extremely vague in its definition of what a religious activity is, and gives pretty clear advantages in terms of tax exemption. That high rewards to low obligation ratio naturally invites parasites. If, say, NGO had a similar status instead, said parasites would move there.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
Well, this thread turned into a dumpster fire real quick.
tmux314 7y ago
Whether you are religious or not, this should sicken you. The difference between a religious scam and a non-religious scam is that religious organizations don't pay taxes and have close to zero accountability financially (at least in the US). They can peddle snake oil with no repercussions. On top of that, there is a special kind of betrayal when a spiritual leader abuses his follower's trust. Others may feel differently, but to me these scams are more sinister than QVS promising 'science-proven results' or a 'Nigerian prince' email spam.
- umvi 7y ago
  It is indeed sickening. But it's difficult to just address these abuses of the system when people are so quick to grab their pitchforks against all religion. I assume you were referring to my comment. To be frank, I always feel a little threatened by these types of stories because so many people end up using it as leverage to question the value of freedom of religion (a freedom I hold dear). Perhaps you may have felt the same defensive instinct when a popular response to the sickening display of racism or hate is to call into question the value of freedom of speech.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    I don't think it is difficult. Just require full public report on the expenses.
  - zamadatix 7y ago
    What does tax exemption and financial regulation have to do with freedom of religion? It certainly doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech.
- steve76 7y ago
  Today's default foreign policy is to leave dictators alone. That yes it's horrible they nerve gas hundreds of thousands of kids and shoot down passenger airliners because they are corrupt murderers who pack attack their own people. Yet they know something about their country that you don't. There are two ways to earn $20,000 a year: Earn $400 a week, and only live on that. Live on $0 and save up $19,000 and a penny, and get a thousand dollar discount on what you want to buy. Don't think little of rural people. They are smarter than you think. That car there is a shakedown. Hey, you just scratched it. Give me $100. Dumping millions of dollars on drug addicted college students really is more moral? How about a few hours south of SF? No one ever OD'ed in Hollywood, right? Also what happens if you do go down there, and get religion actually working? That's the real scary thing and avoidable grave matter behind the data, the humanism in it.
mlang23 7y ago
In a way, I feel people that fall for such stuff deserve it. OTOH, whenever reading stuff like that, I cant help but think that religious freedom is one of the bigger errors of our modern society.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > I feel people that fall for such stuff deserve it. How? Do they only fall for this, because they are bad people who deserve punishment?
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  Do you deserve the things you fall for? > I cant help but think that religious freedom is one of the bigger errors of our modern society. So, you think people should be told what religion to follow?
  - username90 7y ago
    Religious freedom as USA practices it lets parents indoctrinate their kids. In my eyes that is not religious freedom at all, where I come from doing that is illegal. Some people still end up religious but most don't.
    - JustSomeNobody 7y ago
      If these people are claiming to be Christian, then they're doing it wrong and I'd argue they're not Christian. I can't speak for other religions.
  - mlang23 7y ago
    No, I ultimately think reliions should be banned as the scams as they are.
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MisterTea 7y ago
tl;dr religion is spiritually optional. god is truly within. you are your own church. What people really need to acknowledge is that humans are naturally spiritual animals. I like to theorize that we evolved spirituality as a mechanism to cope with being lonely intelligent beings. Imagine being a feral yet intelligent, self aware, social being with few others like yourself wandering the land, surviving as wild animals. We knew nothing of how anything worked. What made the lightning and thunder, what fire is, what volcanoes are, disease, predators, earthquakes, drought, floods, etc, and the most scary of all, death. Then throw in more layers of emotional complexity thanks to that big complex brain. What a lonely and terrifying existence. Who do you talk to in a time of great need? Who do you cry out to? For a near infinite number of reasons, we can't always express our feelings to others so we created internal people to listen to us. Those people are gods. So remember, religion fulfills the humans natural need for spirituality. Religious leaders are nothing more than personifications of our inner gods we can both speak and relate to. So think of religion as a form of spiritual food. And I can see the benefits of religion in the social sense where a common inner voice brings people together based on common spiritual grounds. It also introduces another very important concept which helps reinforce diciplice and even learning: ritual. This was incredibly important in the early days of human evolution, it's probably one of the first forms of casual social bonding we developed. Of course there are those who seek power over others. And what better way to socially hack groups of people via exploiting highly vulnerable built in behaviour? This is where religion and spirituality diverge, when it's used for control. Religion has been corrupted. I grew up catholic but don't like religion because I don't find its dogma spiritually nourishing. However I do pray, not to a god but to the ether or friends and family who have passed. My church is whatever brings me inner peace, though stereotypically I'm naming nature, the wilderness away from society. I'm not sure on an afterlife, and I've half come to peace with accepting that there may be nothing beyond this life. So I mix in ritual, spirituality, philosophy and disciplines into a sort of mini religion for myself. Life is a complex maze and having something to listen to your woes is incredibly comforting, and that's what god(s) really are, comfort. Admittedly I'm still hungry. But that's part of the spiritual journey: finding good spiritual comfort food.
vivekd 7y ago
Problem: mega church pastors are getting rich off the mist vulnerable and government doesnt care This seems ripe for a tech based solution like an independent chruch rating group like the charity ratings people to encourage transparency about how these ministries use their funds and how well their doctrines line up with basic christian beliefs like tge nicene creed. These TV minitries usually fail on both counts. The trinity group in the article seems to be doing great work but they seem to fail in being overly reliant on legislatures
ninjavis 7y ago
This is NOT Christianity. This is not Jesus Christ's will. I hate the fact that all these mega-church millionaire preachers claim to be followers of Christ in any way, shape or form.

135 points by thisone 7y ago

Fixed it : Richs getting rich from poors. You're welcome

This is the John Oliver segment the article is referencing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

umvi 7y ago

What I don't like is when people point to this as a reason why all religion is bad. These are con artists, plain and simple. It would be like if someone on QVC conned tons of people into buying magnets because "science proves this will increase your energy levels" and then I used that as a reason to write off all of science. Target vulnerable people, get them to pay you money, profit. So many dishonest people exploit this formula from televangelists to email spammers.

AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
This is normal. Everything has its dark sides: religion, science and even software engineering. My personal problem is the lack of convincing arguments that religion is good.
- challenger22 7y ago
  Religious people are happier than non-religious people. This replicates fairly well across many countries. This should be a fairly convincing argument all on its own. It is entirely possible to be religious without rejecting rationalism, as well, if you accept God as a metaphorical construct. Religious people are also more charitable. If you break down the numbers, this increased charity is not just benefitting the church. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religio... https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/30/religious-people-more-likely-give-charity-study/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/30/religious-p... https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Give-More/153973 https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Giv...
  - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
    Religious people are happier than non-religious people. Interestingly, when we start talking about countries, not individual people, the trend reverses: atheistic countries are the happiest. https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/the-2018-un-world-happiness-report-most-atheistic-and-socially-well-off-countries-are-the-happiest-while-religious-countries-are-poor-and-unhappy/ https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/the-2018...
    - vekker 7y ago
      Obviously there are many other factors for happiness. To say anything about the effect of religion on happiness, ideally you would compare people in the same region, in similar circumstances.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      Certainly as a Scot I would not naturally associate "religion" and "happiness".... Edit: I'm talking about my experience of religion in Scotland, which is a bit grim and dour, not the rather cheerful kind that they seem to have in the US :-)
    - challenger22 7y ago
      >Of course correlations are not causation, and the negative correlation that I expect between religiosity and happiness does not mean that atheism makes people happier, or religion unhappier. What it means—and this is supported by several sociological studies (see here for one)—is likely that people either turn to religion or maintain their religion when their social situation is so dire that they’re unhappy. When conditions are good, and there’s lots of social support, including help for sick people, old people, free medical care, and so on, then there’s no need to be religious, no need to supplicate a god for what your society can’t provide. When you’re well off, your country gradually loses religion, the thesis of Norris and Inglehart in the preceding link. >In short, what makes people happy is not religion, but material well being and the assurance of material aid. That’s supported by the study’s finding that immigrants, including Muslims from the Middle East, quickly gain the happiness of their new country, while (I suspect), still keeping their religion, though perhaps in an attenuated form. This does not contradict my point- if you live in rural Appalachia, there's a good chance you have a pretty hardscrabble life. Religion is adaptive in this circumstance, and you can become happier by becoming religious. The author of the article you linked also goes on to quote Marx, saying that abolishing religion is curing the masses of their opium addiction, and curing them of their delusions. I would argue that irreligious people are just as delusional, but with different failure modes. Apathy, nihilism, and lack of a sense of self dominate the irreligious; moral absolutism dominates the religious.
- nostalgk 7y ago
  Spoken as a non-religious person, religion gives a lot of people something to rely on and a base foundation of ethics and morals from an early age. It also opens many people to reading and philosophy, and can create a great sense of community in healthy environments.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    When I was a wee boy here in Scotland our primary school teacher for our class of 12 was an ex WW2 Spitfire pilot - we read the bible every day. For some odd reason we only ever read the old testament and generally the bits where people are being rather beastly to one another. I do believe that dear old Mr C might have been trying to teach us a lesson about the reality of religious beliefs. [NB I grew up in a small quite religious community where things like cycling, playing football, hanging out clothes to dry (and probably humour) were effectively banned on Sundays].
    - Fellshard 7y ago
      If you read a book on the Third Reich, would you suppose it was being raised as a positive example? In a similar way, a great deal of the Old Testament is presenting history, not condoning those beastly actions (and, indeed, often directly and straightforwardly condemning them). Context is vital.
      - arethuza 7y ago
        Well, that was rather my point - I suspect he was condemning them. Certainly he never usually mentioned anything to do with his service in WW2 or anything like that - he was a conspicuously decent guy.
        Fellshard 7y ago
        Fair enough, and good to hear about. Others use that to condemn the book as barbaric as a whole, which misses the point. Couldn't tell which you were implying.
  - 7y ago
- galangalalgol 7y ago
  In "virus of the mind" one of Dawkins' students argues religion is more like a symbiote with both benefits and burdens on the host. His arguments seemed reasonable when I read it but I have forgotten them.
- jorangreef 7y ago
  I think your point is genuine, but would it be fair to rephrase your personal problem as the lack of convincing arguments... as far as you are aware? Also, just to point out something you take for granted: You use the word "good" in your argument. What is your standard of "good"ness? Is it an objective, universal, absolute standard of good and evil? Or is it whatever the loudest voice in the room demands it to be?
  - username90 7y ago
    Religion is not philosophy. We can have a concept of moral and good without belief in a god or something supernatural. For humans, everyone agrees that society is nicer to live in when people are nice to each other. So teaching people to be nice to each other lies in everyone's interests, a God serves no purpose here. Note that there are Christian and Buddhist philosophy etc which is useful. However, that is philosophy and not religion. You can believe in the golden rule without being christian. You can agree with the teachings of Jesus without believing that he is the son of God. You can read the Bible without thinking that it is anything more than ancient pop-culture. Also, you can believe that some things are "good" without believing in a god. So as far as we know Religion is no better than snake oil. The main purpose of snake oil is to redistribute resources from naive people to conmen. Snake oil might have some positive placebo benefits, and maybe snake oil inspired some people to pursue medicine and help people for real, but snake oil is still just snake oil.
    - jorangreef 7y ago
      "We can have a concept of moral and good without belief in a god" Sure, but how would that be an objective, universal, absolute standard of good and evil? You claim philosophy, and yet this is an age-old philosophical problem. For example, see Hume's guillotine, i.e. Hume's is-ought distinction. "teaching people to be nice to each other lies in everyone's interests, a God serves no purpose here." Is truth determined by fact and reason, or merely by the purpose it serves?
- francisofascii 7y ago
  Religion offers an alternative to a life based on self interest. To love others, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, give to the poor, care for prisoners, the elderly, the addicts, etc.
Jedd 7y ago
Totally agree - it's a poor explanation to explain why religion is bad, especially as there's so many other, better explanations.
SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
> What I don't like is when people point to this as a reason why all religion is bad. Agreed - it's a pretty weak argument compared to some of the others (terrorism, pedophilia, genocide etc.)
fredley 7y ago
Atheists are not immune from scams, this is just a scam that targets Christians. It also happens to operate with the implicit approval of TV networks, and the law/state in general. I don't think the article casts religion as a whole as bad at any point.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  The rest of this thread on the other hand.... I think the commenter here was right to get out in front of the ire and proselytizing.
Ensorceled 7y ago
You see similar, but less egregious, behaviour in other religious contexts. In the small, poorish town where I grew up there were 10 churches for a town of 1300 people. The town of 400 that was ten miles down the road had 3 churches. This was a huge, one might say parasitic, drain on a town made up of farmers, railway workers, assorted stores, failing restaurants, etc. As attendance fell, the churches started demanding more and more money from their congregations to make up the shortfall. My former church, a Catholic Church, is one of the worst. There are still 7 churches operating in that town.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Maybe you could argue that they provided a better service to the community when they had better representation. Now they are in a recession and people flight to put it in economic terms.
- euroclydon 7y ago
  Churches have a legacy of being the focal point in a community. It's no more surprising that a small town would have that many churches than it is that they would have bars or community centers. Society is changing. Small towns are getting smaller as kids move away. Also, church attendance is down as people go to Starbucks instead. It will balance out over time.
  - Ensorceled 7y ago
    That's not how small towns work. When I was a kid there was 1 bar, 2 restaurants, 4 community centers (arena, legion, golden age home, library), 2 schools and 10 churches. The largest building the town was the middle school. The next 3 by size were churches.
StreamBright 7y ago
Well you can think about it as a simple market. There is a demand for salvation and there is a supply provided by the con artists. The price is set based on market dynamics. This is why a particular religion hates psychologists, they do not like competition.
nathan_long 7y ago
Exactly. Evangelical Christians have also denounced this kind of con many times. Eg via a documentary: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/american-gospel-blows-hole-prosperity-gospel/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/american-gospel-b... A sermon clip with more than a million views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s A rap which drew a lot of attention when published: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4WevY-GPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4WevY-GPU An explainer article: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-know-about-the-prosperity-gospel/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-k... A church journal issue dedicated to the subject: https://www.9marks.org/journal/prosperity-gospel/ https://www.9marks.org/journal/prosperity-gospel/ An article by the nephew of one of these con artists, explaining why he left the racket: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/october/benny-hinn-costi-uncle-prosperity-preaching-testimony.html https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/october/benny-hinn... And the list goes on and on. There are many ongoing efforts to combat this kind of false teaching. Jesus' own teaching and that of his first followers were quite clear on the point that greed is sinful and dangerous, and that love and generosity to the needy, not wealth and success, should characterize Christians. [Luk 12:15, 33-34 ESV] 15 And he said to them, "Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." ... 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [1Ti 6:9-10 ESV] But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. [Eph 4:28 ESV] 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. [Phl 2:3-4 ESV] 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. [Jas 1:27 ESV] 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. [1Jo 3:16-18 ESV] 16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. Prosperity teaching sells a parody of Christianity. It preys on those whose faith and knowledge of scripture is too shallow to tell the difference.
nvarsj 7y ago
All religion isn’t bad. But it’s the perfect vehicle for con artists. The government even encourages it by making religious based cons tax free.
hoseja 7y ago
Religious upbringing installs backdoors that these scammers exploit.
hawkesnest 7y ago
Religion is "bad" in the eyes of many for completely legitimate reasons, not just because of the opportunity for fraud.
- kcmastrpc 7y ago
  Not legitimate at all, they're just as dogmatic and disillusioned as those they purport to despise.
  - hawkesnest 7y ago
    Despise? Maybe some, but probably as many religious folks who despise nonbelievers. What are nonbelievers dogmatic and disillusioned about, exactly?
maxxxxx 7y ago
One thing that bothers me is that churches still get special status. When you look at the Catholic Church it’s pretty much guaranteed that any other organization would have been shut down a long time ago if it had shown the same behavior in light of child abuse. Churches should be treated like any other organization but I think there is still a lot of reluctance to do so.
- kcmastrpc 7y ago
  The vast majority of churches are net positives for their communities, this applies to _all_ churches. Are you saying the local Islamic centre, or protestant church should suffer because of the corruption in the Catholic organization?
  - ones_and_zeros 7y ago
    May be just a personal opinion but I don't consider paying taxes on vast amounts of wealth or the land you own in support of a community to be suffering.
    - harimau777 7y ago
      Would requirement to pay these taxes also apply to secular non-profits?
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    No. What I am saying is that the Catholic Church should have been shut down or forced to clean up their act. And other churches who do bad stuff should be treated like secular organizations who do bad stuff. Right now if you call yourself a “church” you can get away with things other organizations can’t.
    - kcmastrpc 7y ago
      Tell that to the branch davidians.
Zigurd 7y ago
Don't excuse "established religion" so quickly. With the accumulation of prestige and power comes even greater crimes: https://buffalonews.com/2019/05/19/why-buffalos-child-molesting-priests-werent-arrested/ https://buffalonews.com/2019/05/19/why-buffalos-child-molest...
- umvi 7y ago
  Oh, I know. I am religious, but I do not agree with all religions. I think some are better than others and even think some religious organizations are evil (like Scientology). But, I feel religion has given me enormous benefits in life - it's helped me focus less on myself, it's given me a profound sense of identity and purpose in life. I don't feel that it has hindered my career or love of learning/science/engineering at all. I think it could help a lot of people who struggle with lack of sense of purpose/identity/community, etc. So I don't like it when all religion is condemned because of bad actors in some religions. To use an imperfect analogy, I don't like it when people use logic like this: "All projects on GitHub are bad. Look at all these poorly written packages: X, Y, Z. Look at all these bigoted project maintainers. Did you know X project was a front for human trafficking? There is no reason for me to explore and contribute to projects on GitHub when there are so many compelling reasons to the contrary."
  - tasuki 7y ago
    It appears to me you believe in belief. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Belief_in_belief https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Belief_in_belief
  - socks 7y ago
    Having grown up religious, I used to think this way. In my family, I now see people coming up against real hardship, and because their purpose in life is so deeply rooted in religion, they don't know how to cope with things emotionally (instead, trying to defer the emotional toll of those things, believing that their god will handle it)... and they make strange decisions, things go horribly, they are left struggling to comprehend. They live as if they are on a rollercoaster of hope, anticipation, crisis, disappointment, recovery, hope. In my own experience, having your self worth and sense of identity attached to religion is a fragile existence, especially if you are logically inclined.
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Bakary 7y ago
The problem is that, as "edgy" as this statement might sound, it's genuinely hard to draw the line between the con and the real thing. This doesn't appear to be qualitatively different from the Church's system of indulgences, to name one example. Religious organizations have a clear incentive to generate money. At least with science, you can point to actual inventions and innovations that have a measurable and noticeable impact. Religion can and does have a beneficial impact especially in poor regions, but it does so independently of whether its teachings have any particular truth to them. If the world were reset somehow, you'd end up with a completely different set of religious beliefs that would nonetheless have a similar role as a social bonding agent, whereas you would have a decent chance of the same research being done again if the scientific method does end up being developed in the world.
- umvi 7y ago
  > If the world were reset somehow, you'd end up with a completely different set of religious beliefs that would nonetheless have a similar role as a social bonding agent, whereas you would have a decent chance of the same research being done again if the scientific method does end up being developed in the world. This statement is made from the assumption that God doesn't exist and that all religions are equally false. From my perspective, I would argue that if you reset the world, yes, purely man-made religions would disappear and be replaced by different (man-made) ones, but ultimately God's true religion would always re-emerge. For example, in my completely biased opinion, religions like Scientology and Buddism would disappear on world reset to possibly be replaced with some roughly equivalent man-made belief systems under different names (or not). But Christianity (insert the "true" religion here) would persist on world reset (perhaps even under the same name), and the entire Abrahamic-family of religions would re-emerge under different names. They might not be known as "Judaism" or "Islam" or "Protestantism" but basically God would call Abraham-esque prophets to establish his religion, the religion would go off the rails, false prophets would emerge, people would try to restore the church to it's previous state, God would re-establish with new prophets, etc., and you would be left with hundreds of similar prophet-based religions all in the same family of religions, all worshiping the same God, all acknowledging a common set of scripture (which would have the same core religious beliefs as the pre-reset world did), all acknowledging a common set of (ancient) prophets, but with varying dogmatic differences due to aforementioned corruptions.
gameswithgo 7y ago
You don't need to appeal to anything like this to see why religion is bad. Its just straight up crazy. I spend decades of my life trying to have deep arguments about this with people on the internet and elsewhere before it occurred to me that its so obviously crazy that trying to have deep discussions about it are a waste of time. Imagine trying to convince someone that Thor isn't real. That is how crazy it is no matter what religion you are talking about.
mikeash 7y ago
The difference is that science trains people to be skeptical and challenge all claims, whereas religion leaves people ripe for being taken advantage of by training people to believe weird and unverifiable claims from people with the right title.

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auiya 7y ago

If you travel through rural America, it's quite telling to see all the township money spent on churches and government buildings, while the residences and public infrastructure sit in dilapidation. Frequently the people from these areas claim to be fiscally conservative, so one would think there would be more demand for the collective spending they do to be more beneficial to the community, rather than those perpetuating the exploitation.

deadbunny 7y ago
You can't spend money on helping the community, that's basically communism! /s
luckylion 7y ago
The churches are funded by public money?
- simonh 7y ago
  I think 'Township money' just means the resources of the community.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Possibly. I guess op has a very different understanding of "collective spending" than people that consider themselves "fiscally conservative".
    - auiya 7y ago
      Collective spending in this case != elective spending. Taxes are compulsory, church tithes are not, but the end result is the same - the exploitation of the lower and middle class.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        There is no "collective spending" when the spending isn't done by "the collective". To argue that "some people spend money, those people are part of the collective, therefore the collective spends that money" just removes all value from the terms. Sure, the "worldwide collective" spends money on everything ...

tossawayonphine 7y ago

what about outfits like hillsong. those parishiners dont look poor to me. picking on rural america is short sighted and ignorant.

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apo 7y ago

These stories are hard to process because there appears to be such blatant abuse, exploitation, and stupidity. > A couple of years later, the Federal Communications Commission reportedly came close to introducing a "truth-in-advertising" clause for religious solicitations. This would have meant that any claims of boosting finances or curing disease would have to be verifiable, and Ole took various trips to Washington to lobby for it. The thing that's easily forgotten is that any sufficiently-advanced con is indistinguishable from religion.

torgian 7y ago

I remember when I was a teen, the church we went to had an elderly couple that taught “Awana”, a children’s group. A few months the after they started teaching, their daughters, upon turning 18, accused their parents of sexual abuse. The church tried to keep it quiet and said “we cannot judge. God will judge weather it is truth or falsehood.” And they allowed the elderly couple to continue teaching children. I don’t know what happened after that since I decided to stop going to church after that. Bullshit like this happens more often than people think.

rayiner 7y ago
Our daughter’s (very liberal and secular) school recently launched an investigation into sexual abuse of students by teachers over a period of many years back in the 1970s. It was well known at the time, of course, people just were discouraged from making waves or doing anything about it. Sexual abuse was widespread back then, and it was uniformly suppressed, regardless of the sort of community. (Frankly, it still is.)
euroclydon 7y ago
Small churches have even less accountability, structure and resources than small municipalities, who routinely abuse their criminal justice responsibilities. The Southern Baptist Convention is finally looking to dedicate some of their resources to investigations and action on the sexual abuse that's been happening in their (very loosely affiliated churches), but it will be tough sledding. https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2019/02/18/southern-baptist-convention-president-greear-reform-sexual-abuse-crisis/2905893002/ https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2019/02/18/so...
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
> Bullshit like this happens more often than people think. I would argue that this does not. I don't know anyone who goes to church who would have allowed this to go on without alerting the authorities. Assuming your recollection is true, this was just a group of bad people being bad under the false pretense of being a "Church". Look, bad people are everywhere. And just because someone calls himself a Christian doesn't mean he is.

kazinator 7y ago

Using "poor" as synonym for "stupid" seems kind of insulting to poor people who don't happen to be stupid.

Hasknewbie 7y ago

Something that should be pointed out and that is specific to the US: the legal status of religion there invites that type of behaviour. As John Oliver noted in the segment mentioned, the law is extremely vague in its definition of what a religious activity is, and gives pretty clear advantages in terms of tax exemption. That high rewards to low obligation ratio naturally invites parasites. If, say, NGO had a similar status instead, said parasites would move there.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

Well, this thread turned into a dumpster fire real quick.

tmux314 7y ago

Whether you are religious or not, this should sicken you. The difference between a religious scam and a non-religious scam is that religious organizations don't pay taxes and have close to zero accountability financially (at least in the US). They can peddle snake oil with no repercussions. On top of that, there is a special kind of betrayal when a spiritual leader abuses his follower's trust. Others may feel differently, but to me these scams are more sinister than QVS promising 'science-proven results' or a 'Nigerian prince' email spam.

umvi 7y ago
It is indeed sickening. But it's difficult to just address these abuses of the system when people are so quick to grab their pitchforks against all religion. I assume you were referring to my comment. To be frank, I always feel a little threatened by these types of stories because so many people end up using it as leverage to question the value of freedom of religion (a freedom I hold dear). Perhaps you may have felt the same defensive instinct when a popular response to the sickening display of racism or hate is to call into question the value of freedom of speech.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  I don't think it is difficult. Just require full public report on the expenses.
- zamadatix 7y ago
  What does tax exemption and financial regulation have to do with freedom of religion? It certainly doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech.
steve76 7y ago
Today's default foreign policy is to leave dictators alone. That yes it's horrible they nerve gas hundreds of thousands of kids and shoot down passenger airliners because they are corrupt murderers who pack attack their own people. Yet they know something about their country that you don't. There are two ways to earn $20,000 a year: Earn $400 a week, and only live on that. Live on $0 and save up $19,000 and a penny, and get a thousand dollar discount on what you want to buy. Don't think little of rural people. They are smarter than you think. That car there is a shakedown. Hey, you just scratched it. Give me $100. Dumping millions of dollars on drug addicted college students really is more moral? How about a few hours south of SF? No one ever OD'ed in Hollywood, right? Also what happens if you do go down there, and get religion actually working? That's the real scary thing and avoidable grave matter behind the data, the humanism in it.

mlang23 7y ago

In a way, I feel people that fall for such stuff deserve it. OTOH, whenever reading stuff like that, I cant help but think that religious freedom is one of the bigger errors of our modern society.

luckylion 7y ago
> I feel people that fall for such stuff deserve it. How? Do they only fall for this, because they are bad people who deserve punishment?
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
Do you deserve the things you fall for? > I cant help but think that religious freedom is one of the bigger errors of our modern society. So, you think people should be told what religion to follow?
- username90 7y ago
  Religious freedom as USA practices it lets parents indoctrinate their kids. In my eyes that is not religious freedom at all, where I come from doing that is illegal. Some people still end up religious but most don't.
  - JustSomeNobody 7y ago
    If these people are claiming to be Christian, then they're doing it wrong and I'd argue they're not Christian. I can't speak for other religions.
- mlang23 7y ago
  No, I ultimately think reliions should be banned as the scams as they are.

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MisterTea 7y ago

tl;dr religion is spiritually optional. god is truly within. you are your own church. What people really need to acknowledge is that humans are naturally spiritual animals. I like to theorize that we evolved spirituality as a mechanism to cope with being lonely intelligent beings. Imagine being a feral yet intelligent, self aware, social being with few others like yourself wandering the land, surviving as wild animals. We knew nothing of how anything worked. What made the lightning and thunder, what fire is, what volcanoes are, disease, predators, earthquakes, drought, floods, etc, and the most scary of all, death. Then throw in more layers of emotional complexity thanks to that big complex brain. What a lonely and terrifying existence. Who do you talk to in a time of great need? Who do you cry out to? For a near infinite number of reasons, we can't always express our feelings to others so we created internal people to listen to us. Those people are gods. So remember, religion fulfills the humans natural need for spirituality. Religious leaders are nothing more than personifications of our inner gods we can both speak and relate to. So think of religion as a form of spiritual food. And I can see the benefits of religion in the social sense where a common inner voice brings people together based on common spiritual grounds. It also introduces another very important concept which helps reinforce diciplice and even learning: ritual. This was incredibly important in the early days of human evolution, it's probably one of the first forms of casual social bonding we developed. Of course there are those who seek power over others. And what better way to socially hack groups of people via exploiting highly vulnerable built in behaviour? This is where religion and spirituality diverge, when it's used for control. Religion has been corrupted. I grew up catholic but don't like religion because I don't find its dogma spiritually nourishing. However I do pray, not to a god but to the ether or friends and family who have passed. My church is whatever brings me inner peace, though stereotypically I'm naming nature, the wilderness away from society. I'm not sure on an afterlife, and I've half come to peace with accepting that there may be nothing beyond this life. So I mix in ritual, spirituality, philosophy and disciplines into a sort of mini religion for myself. Life is a complex maze and having something to listen to your woes is incredibly comforting, and that's what god(s) really are, comfort. Admittedly I'm still hungry. But that's part of the spiritual journey: finding good spiritual comfort food.

vivekd 7y ago

Problem: mega church pastors are getting rich off the mist vulnerable and government doesnt care This seems ripe for a tech based solution like an independent chruch rating group like the charity ratings people to encourage transparency about how these ministries use their funds and how well their doctrines line up with basic christian beliefs like tge nicene creed. These TV minitries usually fail on both counts. The trinity group in the article seems to be doing great work but they seem to fail in being overly reliant on legislatures

ninjavis 7y ago

This is NOT Christianity. This is not Jesus Christ's will. I hate the fact that all these mega-church millionaire preachers claim to be followers of Christ in any way, shape or form.