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Except straws make up less than a percent of ocean plastic, while almost half is fishing gear. Fishing is destroying the ocean for that and several other reason

Except straws make up less than a percent of ocean plastic, while almost half is fishing gear. Fishing is destroying the ocean for that and several other reasons. Even if we're wildly successful and completely outlaw straws and a dozen other things, the impact of the real problems is going to outweigh all of the former victories.

p1necone 7y ago
That might be true, but bringing it up in a conversation about a different solution to a different problem in a tone that suggests that people shouldn't be trying to use less plastic straws (especially when most of them have no connection to the fishing industry) isn't helpful. If you care about it, talk about it in the context of fishing, don't just bring it up as a way to snarkily shut down people doing something good, no matter how small. This is exactly the kind of "plausible deniability" tactics that people who actively push to disregard all environmental concerns use.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  But for any sort of rational cost/benefit analysis, the plastic straw wins. Lower energy cost than a disposable paper straw, it works better, feels better, and (while I'm not positive of this) lower monetary cost too. And when you consider how few straws make it into the oceans from California, there are far more worthy targets. Or, to put it another way - banning plastic straws is a passable way to reduce the number of straws added to the ocean. It's a really shitty way to reduce plastic. It's things like this (and opposition to nuclear, and refusal to consider geoengineering) that make people skeptical of the general environmental movement. After all, if this was such a huge problem... People would be trying to actually solve it instead of virtue signalling.
  - dr_dshiv 7y ago
    Well said. It makes sense to be outraged by environmental degradation. But it is good to channel our efforts to help in those places where it is most helpful by orders of magnitude. That said, this article is one of the few that really changed my perception. I admit that I have released many balloons over the years, joyfully, with the assumption that latex biodegrades. Now that I see how empirically dangerous they are to seabirds, I won't be so joyful and will surely share the facts instead of releasing the balloons.
  - dTal 7y ago
    Not all plastic pollution is created equal. Plastic straws are especially dangerous for sea turtles, in the same way that balloons are dangerous for sea birds and 6-pack rings are dangerous to both. People didn't single out plastic straws to "virtue signal". As for 'the plastic straw wins', I'm unconvinced. The energy cost might be lower, but none of your other reasons factor in environmental cost at all. I don't think any amount of 'feels good' is worth any amount of environmental damage. Lastly, even if it were entirely symbolic (which it isn't) there's still value in that.
    - p1necone 7y ago
      The "you're just virtue signalling" bullshit is infuriating. People need to consider the possibility that some other human beings actually have empathy, or different values to their own.
  - orwin 7y ago
    Bamboo straws for both home and bar use are pretty neat. I don't know if its true for children, but for grown men and women it feel better, at least. And those cost a less (especially if you already have small bamboo home and friend with woodwork equipement).
  - p1necone 7y ago
    The plastic straw does not win vs just not having a straw.

p1necone 7y ago

That might be true, but bringing it up in a conversation about a different solution to a different problem in a tone that suggests that people shouldn't be trying to use less plastic straws (especially when most of them have no connection to the fishing industry) isn't helpful. If you care about it, talk about it in the context of fishing, don't just bring it up as a way to snarkily shut down people doing something good, no matter how small. This is exactly the kind of "plausible deniability" tactics that people who actively push to disregard all environmental concerns use.

DuskStar 7y ago
But for any sort of rational cost/benefit analysis, the plastic straw wins. Lower energy cost than a disposable paper straw, it works better, feels better, and (while I'm not positive of this) lower monetary cost too. And when you consider how few straws make it into the oceans from California, there are far more worthy targets. Or, to put it another way - banning plastic straws is a passable way to reduce the number of straws added to the ocean. It's a really shitty way to reduce plastic. It's things like this (and opposition to nuclear, and refusal to consider geoengineering) that make people skeptical of the general environmental movement. After all, if this was such a huge problem... People would be trying to actually solve it instead of virtue signalling.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  Well said. It makes sense to be outraged by environmental degradation. But it is good to channel our efforts to help in those places where it is most helpful by orders of magnitude. That said, this article is one of the few that really changed my perception. I admit that I have released many balloons over the years, joyfully, with the assumption that latex biodegrades. Now that I see how empirically dangerous they are to seabirds, I won't be so joyful and will surely share the facts instead of releasing the balloons.
- dTal 7y ago
  Not all plastic pollution is created equal. Plastic straws are especially dangerous for sea turtles, in the same way that balloons are dangerous for sea birds and 6-pack rings are dangerous to both. People didn't single out plastic straws to "virtue signal". As for 'the plastic straw wins', I'm unconvinced. The energy cost might be lower, but none of your other reasons factor in environmental cost at all. I don't think any amount of 'feels good' is worth any amount of environmental damage. Lastly, even if it were entirely symbolic (which it isn't) there's still value in that.
  - p1necone 7y ago
    The "you're just virtue signalling" bullshit is infuriating. People need to consider the possibility that some other human beings actually have empathy, or different values to their own.
- orwin 7y ago
  Bamboo straws for both home and bar use are pretty neat. I don't know if its true for children, but for grown men and women it feel better, at least. And those cost a less (especially if you already have small bamboo home and friend with woodwork equipement).
- p1necone 7y ago
  The plastic straw does not win vs just not having a straw.