7 ms·

Pollution cover-ups exposed in Chinese provinces

127 points by Ultramanoid 7y ago

tepidandroid 7y ago
Looks like the central environment ministry is doing its job discovering and cracking down on these offenders. Good.
jammygit 7y ago
As a Canadian, I wish my country was better about energy use per capita. In Alberta, a lot of that comes from coal too. China does pollute a lot, but per capita they are far from the worst
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Energy use and pollution are not exactly correlated. Neither is carbon footprint and pollution, these are all separate things that have to be managed almost separately.
- ltbarcly3 7y ago
  You are conflating CO2 and all forms of pollution.
  - jordanbeiber 7y ago
    But, also remember that a lot of pollution in China subventions our life-style in the west. If someone is able to build factories and produce basically any piece of plastic, electronic device or clothing we use, far cheaper than over here, there’s bound to be trade-offs. These trade-offs concern human rights and the environment. If we were to, say, halve our consumption of “stuff”, this would have a massive effect on pollution in China. (But what about the holy growth?! :))
    - simonh 7y ago
      There's no inevitability about economic growth in China and reduction in human rights. That's entirely a political decision. By themselves, economic growth and increasing standards of living provide more opportunities and freedoms. Environmental impact is trickier, less economically developed nations struggle to contain the environmental impacts of growth due to the costs involved.
      - jordanbeiber 7y ago
        There’s no denying they have taken it upon themselves. I see it as a highly conscious longish term strategy for them, as now they have become a player to count on. I also believe it’s been stupidly greedy, not to mention short sighted, of us (or “the market”) in the west. You seem to be implying that moral and ethical considerations doesn’t really exist in our economy, which is exactly what I’m sorta’ trying to get across in my point. Edit: I wasn’t referring to Chinas growth, I was actually thinking about BNP etc “over here”. And while expanding on the topic - using BNP as a sole metric of success is just such a bad idea.
- snowwindwaves 7y ago
  Canada is a big place and it is really cold half the time. Cut yourself some slack. Unless you are commuting really far every day by yourself by car, that is a ridiculous norm.
  - ced 7y ago
    Every country has excuses. Russia is cold. Brazil is poor, can't afford paying for clean energy. China is making everybody's stuff. Canada's emissions don't come from its empty land. Half of its electricity comes from hydro power (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Canada), which is used for heating in a lot of houses. Canada has among the world's worst CO2/capita emissions because of its oil sector, and because most Canadians have big houses, big cars (2+ per family), high consumption, and frequent air travel.
- Causality1 7y ago
  This article is pretty strong evidence we don't have that great a handle on how much China pollutes.
  - Ultramanoid 7y ago
    The West is not exactly perfect. https://spiegel.de/international/europe/anger-rises-in-italy-over-toxic-waste-dumps-from-the-mafia-a-943630.html https://spiegel.de/international/europe/anger-rises-in-italy... ... For instance.
    - simonh 7y ago
      Is perfection the only relevant standard? The west has made massive strides in environmental protection over the last 50 years. https://www.popsci.com/america-before-epa-photos https://www.popsci.com/america-before-epa-photos
      - Ultramanoid 7y ago
        It was just an expression meaning "we don't have that great a handle" either on how much Western countries actually pollute. As proven in the examples mentioned in subsequent comments.
        arcticfox 7y ago
        It's impossible to say without some type of dedicated study focused specifically on the question, but my sense is that those examples are rather extraordinary exceptions, and not the rule. Color me unsurprised that the Mafia is breaking laws; there are also vanishingly few organizations like the Mafia in the developed West.
    - netsharc 7y ago
      Or Dieselgate. Or how the authorities of the countries lobbied to keep emissions tests which they knew were easy to fool: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-franc... When carmakers means employment for voters and tax income, it seems obvious governments will let them get away with crap, their motivation is to remain in power and that is easier when the voters are happily employed: https://qz.com/1045619/germanys-diesel-scandal-shines-a-light-on-how-indulgent-the-government-is-with-carmakers/ https://qz.com/1045619/germanys-diesel-scandal-shines-a-ligh...
- Shivetya 7y ago
  you do realize that per capita measurements benefit China, and a few other countries, immensely because a good portion of their population does not participate in their new economy. So in China it is considered less than 60% live in urban areas whereas in the US that number is just over 80%. So a better method of impact determination would be, how much is that portion contributing to the pollution of the country. So always question per capita measurements with large segments of the population in a country don't truly participate. Finally, only a free press and scientific society can confirm the truth
  - klodolph 7y ago
    At least in the US, per capita environmental impact is lower urban than rural. So urbanization is not a great proxy for environmental impact.
baybal2 7y ago
Reminds me of story how "desert greening" was run in Hebei. Trees were planted, counted by officials, and then uprooted and the same plants were replanted again the next day.
- UberofXplsgo 7y ago
  Yes, this is a significant problem because of the strange irony that for a communist country, the Chinese government is run like a business. There are targeted metrics and goals and promotions and pay increases tied to them. They've had a long documented history in the past with suspected gdp reporting fraud. Every time they add a new metric to monitor as a target there is the possibility of potential fraud or gaming the metric in an unproductive way such as planting and unplanting trees.
  - yostrovs 7y ago
    Communists always used metrics because they had no natural price signals to work with. Just because you're using numbers doesn't mean you're a business. Some people like to say that Nazis ran concentration camps like a business. No, they ran them like Nazis run concentration camps, that's all.
- Ultramanoid 7y ago
  And yet... https://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-and-india-lead-the-way-in-greening https://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-an...
- retSava 7y ago
  Ouch. Good analog to when the metric is of highest importance rather than the spirit the metric is supposed to capture. Eg "be productive programmer" -> "code commits per time unit" -> bork.
- mistermann 7y ago
  I'd love to read about this, do you have a link?
zwaps 7y ago
Interesting point made in other threads is whether the trade war would reduce pollution. There is, theoretically, an opportunity. As supply lines move away from China to other SE Asian countries, Western countries could make environmental standards a requirement for trade. In new facilities, say in Vietnam, one could try to start with a blank slate. Since its new, prices likely would not rise much more than they would anyway. But of course, Trump.
- makomk 7y ago
  It wouldn't matter how sensible the environmental standards were, because the Trump administration was making them. For instance, a year or so ago the EPA placed heavy new restrictions on asbestos, all-but-banning most of the previously legal uses by requiring manufacturers and importers to prove their safety to the EPA's satisfaction and indicating that wouldn't be possible. (They couldn't just outright ban them.) This is how you'd have seen this action described if you found out about it from HN: "EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing". Now, this was of course completely untrue. Prior to the rule, companies were allowed to import, manufacture and sell every asbestos-containing product covered by it whenever they liked, without any EPA approval. The new rule replaced that free-for-all with an intentionally hostile approval process where companies had to convince a skeptical EPA that actually, asbestos was safe before they started manufacture or import and wait for them to complete their risk assessment (which they've indicated will probably be "fuck no" in all circumstances). Anyone who read the notice or researched the status quo should've know that. It also wasn't particularly suprising; it was the culmination of a years-long process that started under the previous administration, and it ended in about the toughest restrictions they could legally place. It didn't matter, though, because it fitted into the correct narrative about the current administration - and this was a restriction on a really unsafe substance that was in the pipeline for years and didn't even have anything to with Trump or his trade war.
  - HillaryBriss 7y ago
    i'm against the use of asbestos and have been for years, but my understanding has been that the fear of lawsuit has been an effective force preventing companies from introducing additional uses of asbestos in recent decades. most manufacturers were already avoiding the use of asbestos in their products like the plague. in any case, i don't think federal regulators had sufficient legal authority to actually ban it. but, I think the way the press is handling this is interesting and I'm glad you highlighted it. when I searched for "epa asbestos rule" I found about 10 articles stating that the EPA was ignoring its own scientists in issuing its latest ruling about the use of asbestos in products. but I also found this recent headline on CNN: "EPA announces nearly complete ban on asbestos," which seems to have happened in response to earlier criticism. or something: https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/17/politics/epa-asbestos/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/17/politics/epa-asbestos/index.h... it does make it a bit difficult to figure out what is going on and whether or not this administration is actually pro or con. IDK.
fovc 7y ago
The EU is based on the free movement of goods, capital, and people. America has essentially open borders for the first 2 but not the third. I wonder if it had picked a different 2, what would've happened?
- officialchicken 7y ago
  Know when you are reading whataboutism[0]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
kerng 7y ago
I think the West solved some of its pollution problems by outsourcing them to China...
- mieses 7y ago
  and we should stop.

127 points by Ultramanoid 7y ago

Looks like the central environment ministry is doing its job discovering and cracking down on these offenders. Good.

As a Canadian, I wish my country was better about energy use per capita. In Alberta, a lot of that comes from coal too. China does pollute a lot, but per capita they are far from the worst

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Energy use and pollution are not exactly correlated. Neither is carbon footprint and pollution, these are all separate things that have to be managed almost separately.
ltbarcly3 7y ago
You are conflating CO2 and all forms of pollution.
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  But, also remember that a lot of pollution in China subventions our life-style in the west. If someone is able to build factories and produce basically any piece of plastic, electronic device or clothing we use, far cheaper than over here, there’s bound to be trade-offs. These trade-offs concern human rights and the environment. If we were to, say, halve our consumption of “stuff”, this would have a massive effect on pollution in China. (But what about the holy growth?! :))
  - simonh 7y ago
    There's no inevitability about economic growth in China and reduction in human rights. That's entirely a political decision. By themselves, economic growth and increasing standards of living provide more opportunities and freedoms. Environmental impact is trickier, less economically developed nations struggle to contain the environmental impacts of growth due to the costs involved.
    - jordanbeiber 7y ago
      There’s no denying they have taken it upon themselves. I see it as a highly conscious longish term strategy for them, as now they have become a player to count on. I also believe it’s been stupidly greedy, not to mention short sighted, of us (or “the market”) in the west. You seem to be implying that moral and ethical considerations doesn’t really exist in our economy, which is exactly what I’m sorta’ trying to get across in my point. Edit: I wasn’t referring to Chinas growth, I was actually thinking about BNP etc “over here”. And while expanding on the topic - using BNP as a sole metric of success is just such a bad idea.
snowwindwaves 7y ago
Canada is a big place and it is really cold half the time. Cut yourself some slack. Unless you are commuting really far every day by yourself by car, that is a ridiculous norm.
- ced 7y ago
  Every country has excuses. Russia is cold. Brazil is poor, can't afford paying for clean energy. China is making everybody's stuff. Canada's emissions don't come from its empty land. Half of its electricity comes from hydro power (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Canada), which is used for heating in a lot of houses. Canada has among the world's worst CO2/capita emissions because of its oil sector, and because most Canadians have big houses, big cars (2+ per family), high consumption, and frequent air travel.
Causality1 7y ago
This article is pretty strong evidence we don't have that great a handle on how much China pollutes.
- Ultramanoid 7y ago
  The West is not exactly perfect. https://spiegel.de/international/europe/anger-rises-in-italy-over-toxic-waste-dumps-from-the-mafia-a-943630.html https://spiegel.de/international/europe/anger-rises-in-italy... ... For instance.
  - simonh 7y ago
    Is perfection the only relevant standard? The west has made massive strides in environmental protection over the last 50 years. https://www.popsci.com/america-before-epa-photos https://www.popsci.com/america-before-epa-photos
    - Ultramanoid 7y ago
      It was just an expression meaning "we don't have that great a handle" either on how much Western countries actually pollute. As proven in the examples mentioned in subsequent comments.
      - arcticfox 7y ago
        It's impossible to say without some type of dedicated study focused specifically on the question, but my sense is that those examples are rather extraordinary exceptions, and not the rule. Color me unsurprised that the Mafia is breaking laws; there are also vanishingly few organizations like the Mafia in the developed West.
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Or Dieselgate. Or how the authorities of the countries lobbied to keep emissions tests which they knew were easy to fool: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-franc... When carmakers means employment for voters and tax income, it seems obvious governments will let them get away with crap, their motivation is to remain in power and that is easier when the voters are happily employed: https://qz.com/1045619/germanys-diesel-scandal-shines-a-light-on-how-indulgent-the-government-is-with-carmakers/ https://qz.com/1045619/germanys-diesel-scandal-shines-a-ligh...
Shivetya 7y ago
you do realize that per capita measurements benefit China, and a few other countries, immensely because a good portion of their population does not participate in their new economy. So in China it is considered less than 60% live in urban areas whereas in the US that number is just over 80%. So a better method of impact determination would be, how much is that portion contributing to the pollution of the country. So always question per capita measurements with large segments of the population in a country don't truly participate. Finally, only a free press and scientific society can confirm the truth
- klodolph 7y ago
  At least in the US, per capita environmental impact is lower urban than rural. So urbanization is not a great proxy for environmental impact.

baybal2 7y ago

Reminds me of story how "desert greening" was run in Hebei. Trees were planted, counted by officials, and then uprooted and the same plants were replanted again the next day.

UberofXplsgo 7y ago
Yes, this is a significant problem because of the strange irony that for a communist country, the Chinese government is run like a business. There are targeted metrics and goals and promotions and pay increases tied to them. They've had a long documented history in the past with suspected gdp reporting fraud. Every time they add a new metric to monitor as a target there is the possibility of potential fraud or gaming the metric in an unproductive way such as planting and unplanting trees.
- yostrovs 7y ago
  Communists always used metrics because they had no natural price signals to work with. Just because you're using numbers doesn't mean you're a business. Some people like to say that Nazis ran concentration camps like a business. No, they ran them like Nazis run concentration camps, that's all.
Ultramanoid 7y ago
And yet... https://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-and-india-lead-the-way-in-greening https://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-an...
retSava 7y ago
Ouch. Good analog to when the metric is of highest importance rather than the spirit the metric is supposed to capture. Eg "be productive programmer" -> "code commits per time unit" -> bork.
mistermann 7y ago
I'd love to read about this, do you have a link?

zwaps 7y ago

Interesting point made in other threads is whether the trade war would reduce pollution. There is, theoretically, an opportunity. As supply lines move away from China to other SE Asian countries, Western countries could make environmental standards a requirement for trade. In new facilities, say in Vietnam, one could try to start with a blank slate. Since its new, prices likely would not rise much more than they would anyway. But of course, Trump.

makomk 7y ago
It wouldn't matter how sensible the environmental standards were, because the Trump administration was making them. For instance, a year or so ago the EPA placed heavy new restrictions on asbestos, all-but-banning most of the previously legal uses by requiring manufacturers and importers to prove their safety to the EPA's satisfaction and indicating that wouldn't be possible. (They couldn't just outright ban them.) This is how you'd have seen this action described if you found out about it from HN: "EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing". Now, this was of course completely untrue. Prior to the rule, companies were allowed to import, manufacture and sell every asbestos-containing product covered by it whenever they liked, without any EPA approval. The new rule replaced that free-for-all with an intentionally hostile approval process where companies had to convince a skeptical EPA that actually, asbestos was safe before they started manufacture or import and wait for them to complete their risk assessment (which they've indicated will probably be "fuck no" in all circumstances). Anyone who read the notice or researched the status quo should've know that. It also wasn't particularly suprising; it was the culmination of a years-long process that started under the previous administration, and it ended in about the toughest restrictions they could legally place. It didn't matter, though, because it fitted into the correct narrative about the current administration - and this was a restriction on a really unsafe substance that was in the pipeline for years and didn't even have anything to with Trump or his trade war.
- HillaryBriss 7y ago
  i'm against the use of asbestos and have been for years, but my understanding has been that the fear of lawsuit has been an effective force preventing companies from introducing additional uses of asbestos in recent decades. most manufacturers were already avoiding the use of asbestos in their products like the plague. in any case, i don't think federal regulators had sufficient legal authority to actually ban it. but, I think the way the press is handling this is interesting and I'm glad you highlighted it. when I searched for "epa asbestos rule" I found about 10 articles stating that the EPA was ignoring its own scientists in issuing its latest ruling about the use of asbestos in products. but I also found this recent headline on CNN: "EPA announces nearly complete ban on asbestos," which seems to have happened in response to earlier criticism. or something: https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/17/politics/epa-asbestos/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/17/politics/epa-asbestos/index.h... it does make it a bit difficult to figure out what is going on and whether or not this administration is actually pro or con. IDK.

fovc 7y ago

The EU is based on the free movement of goods, capital, and people. America has essentially open borders for the first 2 but not the third. I wonder if it had picked a different 2, what would've happened?

officialchicken 7y ago
Know when you are reading whataboutism[0]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

kerng 7y ago

I think the West solved some of its pollution problems by outsourcing them to China...

mieses 7y ago
and we should stop.