10 ms·

Alexa, what are you doing with kids' data?

103 points by joeyespo 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
randomdrake 7y ago
The time for regulating data collection for minors at a Federal level is now[1]. I went to purchase an Amazon Echo a couple of days ago, and was surprised to see the children's version on sale for less than the current Echo Dot. It's currently listed as unavailable[2], perhaps because of the findings explored in this article. I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to liquidate. I think it was $39.95 for the children's version and $49.95 for the regular version. There were a few pieces of dark UX/UI that hid a couple of very important differentiations that made me nope out. 1. The service automagically came with something called Amazon FreeTime[3]. It's advertised as free everything for your child; books, tv, music, etc. in exchange, of course it would kindly listen and "learn" to offer better things. Nope. 2. The device was last generation's hardware with a nice cover. It wasn't even technologically up to snuff with the current Echo Dot. Basically I wrote it off as a kid's tracking and advertising device and purchased a regular new one. Glad my Spidey senses were tingling. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_to_children#History_of_advertising_to_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_to_children#Histor... [2] - https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Kids-smart-speaker-Alexa/dp/B077JFPCPX https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Kids-smart-speaker-Alexa/dp/B077... [3] - https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-FreeTime-Unlimited-Monthly-Subscription/dp/B01I499BNA https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-FreeTime-Unlimited-Monthly-Sub...
- austincheney 7y ago
  Just minors?
  - randomdrake 7y ago
    Especially minors.
- pietroglyph 7y ago
  > The time for regulating data collection for minors at a Federal level is now Are you aware of the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA)? It was passed in 1998, and this article specifically says that they believe Amazon is in violation of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Online_Privacy_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Online_Privacy_Prot...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - randomdrake 7y ago
    I am. I guess it wasn't clear that I was also implying there may be something wrong when one of the largest companies in the world can sell ?? number of devices aimed specifically at children, without this regulation being enforced/checked for ?? amount of time. Either enforcement, or regulation failed. I think we've got a lot of mechanisms for enforcement, as this article is bringing light to the necessity of. So, perhaps the aforementioned "regulation" is not enough, and properly written regulation that can be enforced with some regularity and haste is required considering this is for children.
- kbenson 7y ago
  > Basically I wrote it off as a kid's tracking and advertising device and purchased a regular new one. Glad my Spidey senses were tingling. Do you actually believe the regular one will be much better with respect to tracking and advertising? I have no such confidence. I think they'll just categorize the use and still associate everything they do with children.
  - randomdrake 7y ago
    I mentioned the second point because it appeared, to me anyway, that this was a separate service aimed specifically at the children's device; separate from my already assessed knowledge of Amazon, AWS, Prime, and their other affiliated (and paid) offerings.
battletested 7y ago
> Alexa, what are you doing with kids' data? Uhhh, collecting, storing and trying to make profit with it at some point in time? I still wonder why people don't realise this when they buy such system, it's so obvious.
- ronsor 7y ago
  While it's easy to believe free services like Google are siphoning your data, it's harder to connect that a device you pay for is collecting and selling your data.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    It shouldn't be. At this point you need a really good reason to assume a company isn't storing any information it can collect, whether they are monetizing it now or not. It's been proven the information has value. Unless there's some regulation or contract preventing them from doing so, they're going to collect it in the vast majority of cases. Whether they already made money on a service getting the information is irrelevant.
  - obenn 7y ago
    I find the best way to convey to people the reason why these smart speakers and devices are so cheap, and seem to be on sale almost perpetually. A growing number of smart devices are being sold at below-cost, using a combination of data harvesting, ads and a proprietary app/skills store to make a profit for the maker after the sale.
    - taxidump 7y ago
      I am not for regulation normally, but I feel we may need to protect our personal data with some type of oversight. The amount of information and personal data these companies hold is frightening.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      The price doesn't actually matter - if they can make more money with ads/data harvesting, they will. When has a corporation ever said no to free money? (Yes it happens but it's damn rare)
OrgNet 7y ago
and kids just enter fake ages so they get treated like adults anyways (complete privacy breach)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  I was old enough but always entered 1900-01-01 or the earliest year allowed, now more likely to be 1920.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Kids have entered fake ages since the dawn of the Internet, because a lot of content that's interesting to teenagers - violence, nudity, drugs, offensive language - has law-mandated age restrictions.
  - OrgNet 7y ago
    Does it make it more legal for those companies to spy on those kids?
ve55 7y ago
Is there a good reason to put minors in a separate group here, aside from legal aspects or that it just 'feels' like a worse offense to the casual reader? I ask because a lot of common arguments in this area don't seem to apply here that well. I'm not sure adults and adolescents on average have that much better of an understanding of how technology like this works in general (in terms of what is tracked and what your rights to that data are) - so mentioning that the kid didn't consent doesn't seem to change much, because adults using this technology don't understand what is being done behind the scenes either.
- Angostura 7y ago
  Adults are presumed to able to give informed consent, given a clear explanation of how that data will be used.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    I saw an Echo Dot on sale at Krogers (supermarket, midwest US) for $20 today. No, I won't install any sort of 1984-level spy machines in or around my house. But this is easily within 'mow a lawn' budget for a kid. If I was younger, I might have considered it for 'cool' factor. But there's no restriction at Kroger like there is for alcohol(21) or cigarettes(18) or cold pills(18). A 10 year old could buy it and leave the store... And yet, this $20 purchase is more dangerous long-term than 3 packs of cigarettes, a bottle of whiskey, or 2 boxes of cold pills. The data is being used in unknown and likely very unethical ways. There's quite a few questions that could easily cause ramifications for decades down the line. Examples are: 1. Asking about drugs 2. Asking about child abuse 3. Talking about suicide 4. Expressing sentiment that is now or will be persecuted 5. Private conversations that were never meant heard by a 3rd party That data will always be attributed to them, no matter how they try to shed from it. Who would Amazon 'share' it with? We have no clue; European rules would indicate they didn't have the rights to sell/share to begin with, but we US citizens have no such rights. And for that 10-15 year old, they could very well have the rest of their life to deal with that fallout. Damn, I'm glad that my childhood didn't have cell phones, or all this spytech, or ubiquitous always-on-always-snooping computer platforms. I truly can't relate to what kids go through these days, with in-person AND online presence, being on the edge of a gen-x'er and millenial.
emptybits 7y ago
Yes. But also: Parents, why are you letting your kids play with hardware long known to upload and preserve this data?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Because parents don't understand any of that. And it's not by accident - Google, Amazon, et al. do their best for people to not understand that.
  - ericd 7y ago
    Maybe it’s time for some viral explainer videos on Facebook.
steve-benjamins 7y ago
They also made this video which is helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlraB-zflv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlraB-zflv8 The video shows that data wasn't deleted on the Echo Dot even after a parent tried to delete it. Which is bad. (Though there's a bigger point they are making— that parents should be able to control privacy for their children, not Amazon.)
scarejunba 7y ago
The "think of the children" nonsense was so annoying as a child. Paternalistic bullshit that tried to stop me from using the Internet meaningfully. Fortunately, everyone decided to comply with pointless age gates and, as a child, I had a full and complete experience. I'm a well-balanced individual now and I always wondered how people who were once kids and had loads of fun would lock down shit to other kids when they grew older. Now I see this shit live. We used to think it was the previous generation that mollycoddled kids and instead we now have the perpetual hovermom because people are flipping out over this "think of the children" crap. Imagine if I had had to have had an ID mailed in to register on sites just to discuss sci-fi just because someone might mention sex there. Wow, not living in America, I might never have even been able to discuss anything.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  Children are under our protection, and don't yet have full rights. It's annoying to tweens, but not a bad thing. Personally due to age I didn't get on the internet until age ~25 or so. And what I saw there I'll never "unsee" if you catch my drift. Would I choose expose that to my ten year old self now? Definitely not. It's just not necessary. We may have survived intact, but the better question is, was it beneficial to you? I can't say that seeing those things at ten would have improved my life in any meaningful way. Didn't even mention the predator angle, while overblown, is a thing. Data harvesting FTW. Less is more.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Of course "less is more" for everyone else. That's been the mantra of every group of people restricting rights to individuals. "Don't play video games. It'll make you violent" ; "You can't watch that movie. It'll make you a rapist" ; "Don't read that book. It'll turn you into a traitor" No, thanks. I had the Internet from the time I was 10. It made me the capable person I am, gave me the incredible career I have today, and showed me all the things I could become. Horizons were crossed that I never dreamed possible. Many of the people I knew never saw these things and they would kill to have my life. I am absolutely committed to a free and open Internet. Of course, the puritans are against this. The puritans are establishmentarians and authoritarians. You can never do anything because they're protecting you. Oh so very precious, the protection. No, enough with the shackles. The next generation has a right to grow without you cutting their legs out from under them.
macawfish 7y ago
My poor mother bought all of her adult children smart speakers for Christmas. None of us accepted them. People just don't realize what's going on behind the scenes.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Heh. My mom did the same thing a couple of years ago—the Google Home Mini. We played some trivia for a while but it sits there unplugged until we want to use it... which is rarely. The last time has to have been over a year ago...
  - eitland 7y ago
    My Google Home Mini (that I got for Christmas) sits unplugged but it is a very good speaker even if I turn off the mic. If I can just get myself to accept that the mic is off when I have turned it off I might actually start using it more. BTW: Has anyone verified this?
    - nydel 7y ago
      without altering the hardware there might be no way to verify anything very meaningful
- nydel 7y ago
  recent post-move housewarming gifts: - amazon fire stick - wifi thermostat serving a web api - cam/mic security system accessible via http(sans ssl) - fruit basket with as yet inexplicable plastic-encased antennae
  - nexuist 7y ago
    The fruit basket is the weirdest one. WTF could it be? Do you have any link to where you can get one, or any more information on it? Sounds like a fun writeup.
macawfish 7y ago
If I had an echo I'd make it respond to "Jeff Bezos", just to remind myself of who I'm really inviting into my life like that. "Jeff Bezos, can you put some mood music on?" "Jeff Bezos, get me a good Mac and Cheese recipe" "Jeff Bezos, I'd like to order some Tide pods"
- rchaud 7y ago
  That is paranoid and absurd. It's much more likely that the person "reviewing the audio data for quality assurance" will be some gig economy worker hired through Mechanical Turk.
carimura 7y ago
maybe the data was cached to server it quicker?
cybersnowflake 7y ago
If anything I think adults should be more concerned about their own privacy than kids. WGAF that Uncle Sam/Aunt Madison Ave knows that Timmy binged 10 episodes of Spongebob. Adults on the other hand have more damaging secrets like affairs or confidential technical knowledge. I kinda get that you don't want AI to learn how to manipulate kids but still this is a larger concern than just 'think of the children'.

103 points by joeyespo 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

The time for regulating data collection for minors at a Federal level is now[1]. I went to purchase an Amazon Echo a couple of days ago, and was surprised to see the children's version on sale for less than the current Echo Dot. It's currently listed as unavailable[2], perhaps because of the findings explored in this article. I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to liquidate. I think it was $39.95 for the children's version and $49.95 for the regular version. There were a few pieces of dark UX/UI that hid a couple of very important differentiations that made me nope out. 1. The service automagically came with something called Amazon FreeTime[3]. It's advertised as free everything for your child; books, tv, music, etc. in exchange, of course it would kindly listen and "learn" to offer better things. Nope. 2. The device was last generation's hardware with a nice cover. It wasn't even technologically up to snuff with the current Echo Dot. Basically I wrote it off as a kid's tracking and advertising device and purchased a regular new one. Glad my Spidey senses were tingling. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_to_children#History_of_advertising_to_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_to_children#Histor... [2] - https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Kids-smart-speaker-Alexa/dp/B077JFPCPX https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Kids-smart-speaker-Alexa/dp/B077... [3] - https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-FreeTime-Unlimited-Monthly-Subscription/dp/B01I499BNA https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-FreeTime-Unlimited-Monthly-Sub...

austincheney 7y ago
Just minors?
- randomdrake 7y ago
  Especially minors.
pietroglyph 7y ago
> The time for regulating data collection for minors at a Federal level is now Are you aware of the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA)? It was passed in 1998, and this article specifically says that they believe Amazon is in violation of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Online_Privacy_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Online_Privacy_Prot...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- randomdrake 7y ago
  I am. I guess it wasn't clear that I was also implying there may be something wrong when one of the largest companies in the world can sell ?? number of devices aimed specifically at children, without this regulation being enforced/checked for ?? amount of time. Either enforcement, or regulation failed. I think we've got a lot of mechanisms for enforcement, as this article is bringing light to the necessity of. So, perhaps the aforementioned "regulation" is not enough, and properly written regulation that can be enforced with some regularity and haste is required considering this is for children.
kbenson 7y ago
> Basically I wrote it off as a kid's tracking and advertising device and purchased a regular new one. Glad my Spidey senses were tingling. Do you actually believe the regular one will be much better with respect to tracking and advertising? I have no such confidence. I think they'll just categorize the use and still associate everything they do with children.
- randomdrake 7y ago
  I mentioned the second point because it appeared, to me anyway, that this was a separate service aimed specifically at the children's device; separate from my already assessed knowledge of Amazon, AWS, Prime, and their other affiliated (and paid) offerings.

battletested 7y ago

> Alexa, what are you doing with kids' data? Uhhh, collecting, storing and trying to make profit with it at some point in time? I still wonder why people don't realise this when they buy such system, it's so obvious.

ronsor 7y ago
While it's easy to believe free services like Google are siphoning your data, it's harder to connect that a device you pay for is collecting and selling your data.
- kbenson 7y ago
  It shouldn't be. At this point you need a really good reason to assume a company isn't storing any information it can collect, whether they are monetizing it now or not. It's been proven the information has value. Unless there's some regulation or contract preventing them from doing so, they're going to collect it in the vast majority of cases. Whether they already made money on a service getting the information is irrelevant.
- obenn 7y ago
  I find the best way to convey to people the reason why these smart speakers and devices are so cheap, and seem to be on sale almost perpetually. A growing number of smart devices are being sold at below-cost, using a combination of data harvesting, ads and a proprietary app/skills store to make a profit for the maker after the sale.
  - taxidump 7y ago
    I am not for regulation normally, but I feel we may need to protect our personal data with some type of oversight. The amount of information and personal data these companies hold is frightening.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    The price doesn't actually matter - if they can make more money with ads/data harvesting, they will. When has a corporation ever said no to free money? (Yes it happens but it's damn rare)

OrgNet 7y ago

and kids just enter fake ages so they get treated like adults anyways (complete privacy breach)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mixmastamyk 7y ago
I was old enough but always entered 1900-01-01 or the earliest year allowed, now more likely to be 1920.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
Kids have entered fake ages since the dawn of the Internet, because a lot of content that's interesting to teenagers - violence, nudity, drugs, offensive language - has law-mandated age restrictions.
- OrgNet 7y ago
  Does it make it more legal for those companies to spy on those kids?

ve55 7y ago

Is there a good reason to put minors in a separate group here, aside from legal aspects or that it just 'feels' like a worse offense to the casual reader? I ask because a lot of common arguments in this area don't seem to apply here that well. I'm not sure adults and adolescents on average have that much better of an understanding of how technology like this works in general (in terms of what is tracked and what your rights to that data are) - so mentioning that the kid didn't consent doesn't seem to change much, because adults using this technology don't understand what is being done behind the scenes either.

Angostura 7y ago
Adults are presumed to able to give informed consent, given a clear explanation of how that data will be used.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  I saw an Echo Dot on sale at Krogers (supermarket, midwest US) for $20 today. No, I won't install any sort of 1984-level spy machines in or around my house. But this is easily within 'mow a lawn' budget for a kid. If I was younger, I might have considered it for 'cool' factor. But there's no restriction at Kroger like there is for alcohol(21) or cigarettes(18) or cold pills(18). A 10 year old could buy it and leave the store... And yet, this $20 purchase is more dangerous long-term than 3 packs of cigarettes, a bottle of whiskey, or 2 boxes of cold pills. The data is being used in unknown and likely very unethical ways. There's quite a few questions that could easily cause ramifications for decades down the line. Examples are: 1. Asking about drugs 2. Asking about child abuse 3. Talking about suicide 4. Expressing sentiment that is now or will be persecuted 5. Private conversations that were never meant heard by a 3rd party That data will always be attributed to them, no matter how they try to shed from it. Who would Amazon 'share' it with? We have no clue; European rules would indicate they didn't have the rights to sell/share to begin with, but we US citizens have no such rights. And for that 10-15 year old, they could very well have the rest of their life to deal with that fallout. Damn, I'm glad that my childhood didn't have cell phones, or all this spytech, or ubiquitous always-on-always-snooping computer platforms. I truly can't relate to what kids go through these days, with in-person AND online presence, being on the edge of a gen-x'er and millenial.

emptybits 7y ago

Yes. But also: Parents, why are you letting your kids play with hardware long known to upload and preserve this data?

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Because parents don't understand any of that. And it's not by accident - Google, Amazon, et al. do their best for people to not understand that.
- ericd 7y ago
  Maybe it’s time for some viral explainer videos on Facebook.

steve-benjamins 7y ago

They also made this video which is helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlraB-zflv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlraB-zflv8 The video shows that data wasn't deleted on the Echo Dot even after a parent tried to delete it. Which is bad. (Though there's a bigger point they are making— that parents should be able to control privacy for their children, not Amazon.)

scarejunba 7y ago

The "think of the children" nonsense was so annoying as a child. Paternalistic bullshit that tried to stop me from using the Internet meaningfully. Fortunately, everyone decided to comply with pointless age gates and, as a child, I had a full and complete experience. I'm a well-balanced individual now and I always wondered how people who were once kids and had loads of fun would lock down shit to other kids when they grew older. Now I see this shit live. We used to think it was the previous generation that mollycoddled kids and instead we now have the perpetual hovermom because people are flipping out over this "think of the children" crap. Imagine if I had had to have had an ID mailed in to register on sites just to discuss sci-fi just because someone might mention sex there. Wow, not living in America, I might never have even been able to discuss anything.

mixmastamyk 7y ago
Children are under our protection, and don't yet have full rights. It's annoying to tweens, but not a bad thing. Personally due to age I didn't get on the internet until age ~25 or so. And what I saw there I'll never "unsee" if you catch my drift. Would I choose expose that to my ten year old self now? Definitely not. It's just not necessary. We may have survived intact, but the better question is, was it beneficial to you? I can't say that seeing those things at ten would have improved my life in any meaningful way. Didn't even mention the predator angle, while overblown, is a thing. Data harvesting FTW. Less is more.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Of course "less is more" for everyone else. That's been the mantra of every group of people restricting rights to individuals. "Don't play video games. It'll make you violent" ; "You can't watch that movie. It'll make you a rapist" ; "Don't read that book. It'll turn you into a traitor" No, thanks. I had the Internet from the time I was 10. It made me the capable person I am, gave me the incredible career I have today, and showed me all the things I could become. Horizons were crossed that I never dreamed possible. Many of the people I knew never saw these things and they would kill to have my life. I am absolutely committed to a free and open Internet. Of course, the puritans are against this. The puritans are establishmentarians and authoritarians. You can never do anything because they're protecting you. Oh so very precious, the protection. No, enough with the shackles. The next generation has a right to grow without you cutting their legs out from under them.

macawfish 7y ago

My poor mother bought all of her adult children smart speakers for Christmas. None of us accepted them. People just don't realize what's going on behind the scenes.

52-6F-62 7y ago
Heh. My mom did the same thing a couple of years ago—the Google Home Mini. We played some trivia for a while but it sits there unplugged until we want to use it... which is rarely. The last time has to have been over a year ago...
- eitland 7y ago
  My Google Home Mini (that I got for Christmas) sits unplugged but it is a very good speaker even if I turn off the mic. If I can just get myself to accept that the mic is off when I have turned it off I might actually start using it more. BTW: Has anyone verified this?
  - nydel 7y ago
    without altering the hardware there might be no way to verify anything very meaningful
nydel 7y ago
recent post-move housewarming gifts: - amazon fire stick - wifi thermostat serving a web api - cam/mic security system accessible via http(sans ssl) - fruit basket with as yet inexplicable plastic-encased antennae
- nexuist 7y ago
  The fruit basket is the weirdest one. WTF could it be? Do you have any link to where you can get one, or any more information on it? Sounds like a fun writeup.

macawfish 7y ago

If I had an echo I'd make it respond to "Jeff Bezos", just to remind myself of who I'm really inviting into my life like that. "Jeff Bezos, can you put some mood music on?" "Jeff Bezos, get me a good Mac and Cheese recipe" "Jeff Bezos, I'd like to order some Tide pods"

rchaud 7y ago
That is paranoid and absurd. It's much more likely that the person "reviewing the audio data for quality assurance" will be some gig economy worker hired through Mechanical Turk.

carimura 7y ago

maybe the data was cached to server it quicker?

cybersnowflake 7y ago

If anything I think adults should be more concerned about their own privacy than kids. WGAF that Uncle Sam/Aunt Madison Ave knows that Timmy binged 10 episodes of Spongebob. Adults on the other hand have more damaging secrets like affairs or confidential technical knowledge. I kinda get that you don't want AI to learn how to manipulate kids but still this is a larger concern than just 'think of the children'.