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Self-distancing can help you make better decisions
- jddj 7y agoThis reminded me of something which made it to the front page a while back about how people came to a different result when they considered Trolley Problems in their second language rather than their first. But that article framed it as there being benefits to both the emotional approach and the more rational approach, depending on the problem being considered. This one seemed to discount the emotional baggage as totally unnecessary. Edit: found the article, and now I'm not sure that I read it on HN after all, but for anyone curious (text is in Spanish): https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/06/18/laboratorio_de_felicidad/1529301994_058189.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/06/18/laboratorio_de_felicida...
- girzel 7y agoThis feels like Western science finding its own way towards the lessons already learned by Buddhist meditation. A lot of the same ideas, framed quite differently.
- checker659 7y agoOver 2000 years back at that
- maroonblazer 7y ago>Self-distancing is the act of increasing the distance from your own egocentric perspective when assessing events and emotions that you experience. It's odd that there's no mention of meditation as a way to achieve this effect, since that's arguably its biggest benefit. Put another way, as someone once said: Wisdom is the ability to take your own advice.
- hsitz 7y agoYes, this does seem like it's closely related to a habit you develop through meditation. However, the "self-distancing" seems worse to me than meditation, since it seems to advocate taking a distance from the "true self" of feelings and thoughts. Meditation encourages the [better]route of recognizing that feelings and thoughts are not parts of your true self at all.
- fwip 7y agoWhat do think is your true self, if not feelings or thoughts?
- riskneutral 7y agoI would go further and say that meditation is the only way to reliably and truly actualize such a state of mind.
- Vinnl 7y agoI consider self-distancing to be one of the things I'm relatively good at. I've hardly ever successfully meditated, though. Furthermore, the article mentions a couple of other techniques that appear to reliably help with self-distancing. I'm sure meditation helps, but I wouldn't rule out other options for achieving this particular goal.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- maxerickson 7y agoCan't that just put things in a circle? Where if you are self distancing then you must be doing whatever meditation is?
- winchling 7y ago>The researchers then measured participants’ self-distance during their recollection of their past experiences How exactly did they perform this measurement?
- TN1ck 7y agoI always imagine myself in a movie. What would I want the protagonist to do? Usually leads me to be more outgoing and not staying at home.
- reificator 7y agoBut what if what you want the protagonist to do is a non-stop 80s montage?
- munificent 7y agoYou say that like it's a bad thing. <turns up the Le Matos currently playing in headphones>
- dominotw 7y agoNice tip. I am going to try this too.
- elevenoh 7y ago>leads me to be more outgoing and not staying at home. Leads me to be more impact & big picture driven, less ego zero sum bullshit.
- joaomacp 7y agoCultural hegemony at its best.
- sonnyblarney 7y agoThis is really a powerful and understudied phenom that's very well exemplified in a very simple form of advice I once read concerning making decisions, self assessment: Instead of thinking "what should I do in the situation?", consider "what advice would I give myself in this situation?" It's almost a trivial differentiation, and yet, if one applies this concept immediately for any reason big or small, one will be astonished at how the answers are different. It's really amazing. It's hard to put data behind it, but if you just try it, I suggest you'll probably see a difference as well. I can't think of any other psychological technique which yields 'results' (at least in terms of having different ideas given framing) for basically zero effort or practice. It's not even a 'learned skill', it's just framing. It's amazing. I suggest more intellectual people, who might be more deep in their own thoughts, might make even better use of this than more gregarious 'in the moment' people who's attention is in the 'here and now'.
- fma 7y agoOften times when faced with a tough decision, I pretend I have a friend in the exact same situation and I think about what advice I without give them. It would actually take the form of a conversation and is quite productive.
- sonnyblarney 7y agoYes, that's it. So simple, so powerful.
- scarygliders 7y agoHuh. I've known this as "standing back from oneself" - I've naturally used this technique for a long time when assessing a customer's situation/requirements. Also comes in handy when assessing... onself, and one's needs and requirements.
- dominotw 7y ago> self who is analyzing the event is considered to be distinct from the self who experienced it I have hard time following this, how can there be two selfs in a single mind. Is the observer more nobler entity with higher self restraint than the entity being observed who is more emotional and lower self control?
- maroonblazer 7y agoYou've never had the experience of reflecting on an action you took in the past and felt a tinge (or worse) of regret? It's the same thing.
- stevenjohns 7y agoThe self analysing the event, as I understand it, is considered to be reasonable. The self who is experiencing it is emotional. It is the same distinction between “heart” and “mind”. I wouldn’t call either of them nobler, depends on the situation.
- derefr 7y agoOne of the goals of mindfulness meditation is the "realization" that your stream of consciousness—the output of the "self who is analyzing the event"—is essentially just a sensory stimulus like any other. There is an agent in your head, thinking—an agent you have raised and constantly train and identify with very much, sure—but then there is you, separately, observing that thinking coming out of that agent. You, the thing that experiences qualia, would still exist even if that agent didn't! You just wouldn't be able to ponder or focus-on or decide-to-react to anything; only to passively sense and experience things as they happen. From your perspective as the perceiving agent, it'd just seem that a sense was shut off. Once you have this perspective, you become aware that you don't have to identify with the thoughts coming out of the thinking-agent, or even to listen to them. You, the perceiving agent, can "tune out" the thinking agent's train of thought, just as well as you can tune out a five-year-old babbling in your ear. (And, helpfully, the brain has feedback mechanisms that make tuning out the thinking agent cause it to "speak" less. Unlike the five-year-old.)
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- torstenvl 7y agoRobert Sapolsky touches on this when discussing the effects of glucocorticoids on the prefrontal cortex. A stressed PFC is not an executive functioning PFC. When we're too close to an issue, we process with our periaqueductal gray (key in pain inhibition) and not with the part of our brain more adept at strategizing. These stress effects on frontal function also make us perseverative—in a rut, set in our ways, running on automatic, being habitual. We all know this—what do we typically do during a stressful time when something isn’t working? The same thing again, many more times, faster and more intensely—it becomes unimaginable that the usual isn’t working. This is precisely where the frontal cortex makes you do the harder but more correct thing—recognize that it’s time for a change. Except for a stressed frontal cortex, or one that’s been exposed to a lot of glucocorticoids. In rats, monkeys, and humans, stress weakens frontal connections with the hippocampus—essential for incorporating the new information that should prompt shifting to a new strategy—while strengthening frontal connections with more habitual brain circuits. R. Sapolsky, Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst 130 (2017).
- hhjjkkll 7y ago>When we're too close to an issue, we process with our periaqueductal gray (key in pain inhibition) and not with the part of our brain more adept at strategizing. This must be what happens when you think of a funny comeback or joke several hours after the opportunity to use it.
- kissgyorgy 7y agoThis is such a simple and effective trick to think about problems involving you. It's very easy to do, for example you imagine how somebody else who is standing next to you can see you, like if you were that person. Sometimes I imagine how my grandpa would see what I do if he still would live and he could be proud of me or not.
- billti 7y agoI figured out for myself a while back, that if I suspect I’m taking the “easy” choice or making excuses for myself, if I imagine there was a great coach standing next to me who knew my mindset & goals and had my best interests in mind, what would he tell me to do right now. The right action will often become surprisingly clear.
- manigandham 7y agoThis is called "detachment" in many areas of leadership like the military. I'm sure everyone has personally experienced this, for example when giving advice to others. It's usually very rational and practical because you're not personally and emotionally invested in the events of their life.
- teddyh 7y ago“We’re all scared. You hid in that ditch because you think there’s still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you’re already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you’ll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function. Without mercy. Without compassion. Without remorse. All war depends upon it.” — Speirs, Band of Brothers (2001)
- afarrell 7y agoIf you don’t have a need to, I’m not sure that its useful or healthy to adopt coping mechanisms that people use to endure the most traumatic experiences possible.
- teddyh 7y agoJust to be clear: I was certainly not making a recommendation. I agree with you.
- maxerickson 7y agoSpeirs is portrayed as somewhat of a broken man during that part of the show. So there is more context there than the quote might imply.
- AdamM12 7y agoJocko Podcast talks about this A LOT. Such a good podcast just in general. A bunch of prevailing themes but can take a little bit out of each.
- nurettin 7y agoIsn't this related to how often we find people closer to the psychopathic part of the mental spectrum in leadership positions ? That distancing themselves from suffering and emotions of others comes naturally to them ?
- mrmondo 7y agoTried to get the primary source for the study behind the graphs there, links through to a paywalled study - so I can’t find the sample size, methodologies used, how the study was controlled etc... I’m not disputing anything - I am however cautious of drawing conclusions from articles / posts without proper citations and primary source data. Paywalled study: https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fa0035173 https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fa0035173 It is promising however that this blog as a section on logical fallacies, without going through more articles I can’t comment if they adhere to avoiding them or not, still - good to see.
- gwern 7y agoGoogle Scholar pulls up many PDFs of it: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=18169154965353534314&hl=en&as_sdt=0,21 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=18169154965353534...
- dawhizkid 7y agoThis partially explains why many have epiphanies while on shrooms...you will experience "ego death" that lets you think much more objectively about issues affecting your life.
- bitforger 7y agoAs I read this article, I thought to myself, "oh, this must be why we must make such good decisions, huh?"
- datalus 7y agoI'm in the midst of a major decision... Just quit my job with a year of runway and I'm either considering putting that towards graduate school abroad or settling down, finding a better job, and buying a home. My emotions tell me to go study, but my rational mind tells me to settle down and buy a home.
- module0000 7y agoRational advice from a complete stranger; settle down, study, and consider buying a home. Buying a home can consume a year of runway quickly depending on how you go about it.
- verelo 7y agoI like this advice. Unless you have a very large capital base, houses are a great way to reduce your optionality in many ways.
- sidcool 7y agoSame here. I have two ways, either go into tech leadership or go down the path of research in theoretical computer science. It's a tough choice to make as it will consume the next few years of my life.
- temp99990 7y agoI’m surprised a year of runway could mean a house...?
- datalus 7y agoI meant a year of runway as my current expenses renting... owning a home would come after finding a job/saving :) I wasn't clear on that. Sorry!
- perfmode 7y agoDrop your burn rate to zero, or as low as you can manage. And consider spending a month abroad, investing in meditation and self-understanding. Can be done cheaply and is super rewarding. I recommend hridaya yoga center in mazunte, from my personal experience doing just that, earlier this year.
- jok311 7y agoBest
- edmundsauto 7y agoThis is similar to Kahneman's "take the outside view" advice. It helps us distance the decision from our (self-)imperceptible biases.
- rotrux 7y agoThis platitude paints a very shallow picture of human decisionmaking. Tecnically, eating oranges "can help you make better decisions" because getting scurvy is distressing. Looking at yourself like an alien is not a catchall which will lead you to make 'better decisions.'
- lame88 7y agoWow. This is something I’ll probably remember for quite some time. It’s intuitive and immediately applicable, and also a dose of awareness I’ve needed recently. However, there’s a catch to this. By distancing yourself like this, it seems like you may act quite rationally - but perhaps too locally rational. You may be a long time Java programmer and just feel incredibly unfulfilled about your day to day work, and you might be eyeing stuff like Scala and Clojure with dreams of a more fulfilling line of work. Perhaps the distanced rational self would say no, you are well invested in this Java skillset, and these new things could die out, or any new venture like this might not work out, so stick with what you know. But perhaps you take the more emotional route and say no, even if things pan out badly for me, i want a more fulfilling day to day rather than writing so much repetitive code or whatever (no offense to anyone happy with Java). And perhaps you land in a spot where you’re much happier. Or hell, perhaps you really wanted to pursue music, art, etc. It’s my conjecture, but perhaps it’s most concisely put as: the more you distance yoursef, the less risk you tolerate, and you will take the safe path, precluding the wild possibilities that are the spice of life.
- B-Con 7y agoThis is me. I have a track record of making good, rational decisions that I end up regretting because it wasn't what I actually wanted. recently I've been trying to do a better job of checking in on my feelings to ensure present me don't make logical decisions future me will be aggrevated to follow up on.
- Fricken 7y agoReason is slave to the passions.
- logicchains 7y agoAlso applies to relationships: self-distancing/meditation can allow you to tolerate a lot of things that maybe you'd be better off not having to tolerate in the first place, and keep you from leaving a bad situation.
- 7y ago
- scarejunba 7y agoSomeone gave me a tip to being CTO: consider what the ideal CTO would do here and see why you can't. Surprisingly, I found it effective. Odd but I'm not one to throw out a functioning tool.
- holri 7y agoThey key is to understand who you are. That is more difficult than one might expect.
- return1 7y agoI wonder if return1 can benefit from this. He also wonders if it helps other people to refer to them in the 3rd person. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4FxhUA0SKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4FxhUA0SKM
- revskill 7y agoI used to do that. But people are dangerous, they just want to take benefit of others. So in some cases, if you self-distant, you won't see what could affect you, as outsiders are just outsiders. A balance is needed, self-distant is not enough to deal with people.
- obstacle1 7y agoI'm not sure you mean the same thing by self-distant as what the article is talking about. It seems like you are talking about altruism, or looking at situations with an eye towards acting selflessly. Taking actions that will benefit others without regard to how they affect you. The article is talking about visualizing a situation from a third-person perspective, so that "you" are an object to be analyzed in an emotionally detached way. Rather than viewing a situation from "your" perspective. The idea is looking at your 'self' as some other person helps you to detach from the emotions you feel internally. And this leads to making decisions based on reality rather than how you feel. All the factors that might lead to you being exploited by other people are still visible when you self-distance. You can still see the co-worker waiting in the wings to throw you under the bus. But rather than _feel_ the discomfort and rage of knowing that the person is after you, you see objectively how you stand in relation to that person. This makes it less likely that you will take impulsive actions driven by instinct, and more likely to take a well-reasoned path that minimizes the likelihood/impact of being exploited.
- Dowwie 7y agoYou may find it worth the time spending an hour reading through the work done by Yaacov Trope in this space, some that are referenced in the article
- Kable54 7y agoWhat a great concept, article and discussion.
- andrewkslv 7y agoAA members (Alcoholics Anonymous) or any addicted people are doing the opposite. They talk about drinking, they're celebrating round dates. I think the approach in the article is more effective for them.
- spaceprison 7y agoWith all due respect, you're wrong. In AA there is celebration around milestones (first days, then months then years of sobriety) and there is some discussion of past drinking. You'll often see a lot of both in movies, newcomer meetings or early treatment. But substance abusers are selfish so a core function of working an aa program aside from trying to help others quit (objectively using ones own experience to help another) is actively taking inventory of past and present resentments, fears and selfishness to determine "what was/is your role in X?" and then making an amend to correct the wrong.
- jok311 7y agofsdfsdf