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> Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength I like this gist of his program, but as someone who did it years ago, there's a few things I'd change. First, remove clean

> Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength I like this gist of his program, but as someone who did it years ago, there's a few things I'd change. First, remove cleans, and add barbell rows. Lots of people make this adjustment. I don't find the exercise to be beginner friendly. Second, deadlifts will be there own focused day almost immediately. Outside of one's probably first month, doing squats + bench + deadlift is nearly impossible to do in one workout. On a personal note, I don't like his squat technique. In particular, bar placement. New people should do high-bar, exclusively. Mark's hybrid squat, and low bar squats, put a huge amount of pressure on your elbows and shoulders.

michaelgrafl 7y ago
I agree. I actually prefer goblet squats right now. Also going to try front-squats and see how that feels.
matwood 7y ago
Agree with everything you said. I actually only do front squats now after a back injury from basketball. I find I can get a great squat workout with much less weight, and it forces good posture or else the bar will roll off the front of your shoulders.
anarchodev 7y ago
Definitely agree on replacing cleans with more targeted movements -- slight nitpick, none of this is "weightlifting" which is a separate sport of its own requiring these movements but incorporating power and speed to efficiently perform the snatch and clean and jerk with maximal load on the bar. One thing to keep in mind with starting strength is that it was meant for high school football players who needed to rapidly add mass and strength. Low bar squats emphasize the posterior chain which are simply larger muscles, and will help the beginner see bigger gains faster and without spending time on the particular advanced cues necessary to perform high-bar squats correctly and safely without injuring your joints. (I'm thinking particularly of adductor strength and thoracic spine mobility.) On the other hand the low-bar squat is often coached incorrectly , resulting in much worse stress on the back and elbows (terrible cues like "knees back", etc). When taught correctly, the pressure commonly felt in the shoulders and elbows in this lift is simply a lack of flexibility and will resolve itself.
pwthornton 7y ago
Rows are a great exercise, but they aren't a replacement for cleans. The purpose of cleans is to build explosiveness and speed. A more beginner way to do this is to do kettlebell cleans or snatches, which are way easier to do than barbell cleans.
ubercore 7y ago
The squat style has a lot to do with body types I think. His squat style completely cleared up lower back and hip pains I was having with high-bar. I think people should try both and see where their bodies are most comfortable.
- DataWorker 7y ago
  Agree. Everybody’s geometry differs so choice of high or low bar will be very related to femur length vs torso length. One size fits all approach isn’t going to work for a lot of people.
- lostapathy 7y ago
  I agree. I have encouraged several people with squatting problems to squat low bar and it sorted out there issues very quickly.
yepguy 7y ago
It's absolutely possible to continue doing squats + bench + deadlifts in the same workout for a very long time. After about 6 months I moved to deadlifting only once per week, but it was still done on my "heavy day" after setting PRs on my squat and press/bench press. > Mark's hybrid squat, and low bar squats, put a huge amount of pressure on your elbows and shoulders. I had this problem, and it turned out to be a form problem that my Starting Strength Coach fixed without switching to a different exercise. You can't do the exercise wrong and then claim there's a problem with it.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  Yeah, I've been training for years and I'll still do deadlift work on a day I squat. Deadlift volume alone is so low it feels like a waste to just do that for my primary movement that day. The only time I get shoulder & elbow pain squatting is when I'm going too heavy on volume and my form is breaking down. Otherwise I don't notice it.
rayssgyms 7y ago
I'm a big fan of HN and happy to have a reason to create an account and comment after all of these years. I thoroughly enjoy the intelligent conversation here. As a Starting Strength Coach (there are around 130 of us), I I can confirm that a few of the comments accurately sum up the objections (rather misunderstandings) of the program that H1Supreme highlighted. The powerclean is an important part of the novice program to build explosive power - the ability to display strength, quickly. It can be substituted by another lift, or a light deadlift day, if the trainee's injury status or age make it an unwise cost/benefit equation. But this is considered a trade-off and isn't ideal. Yes, the powerclean is technical. So is the squat. And the press. And the bench, to a much lesser degree. Which segues into the issue mentioned in the second point. Elbow pain in the squat. As accurately described by "yepguy," this is indeed a technical error. Here's how to fix it: https://startingstrength.com/training/preventing-elbow-pain-in-the-squat https://startingstrength.com/training/preventing-elbow-pain-... A few other thoughts: pwthornton, kettle-bell cleans and snatches are not a substitute for barbell cleans and snatches. What we're chasing is adequate training stress to facilitate an adaptation. One of the primary drivers of that stress is load - weight on the bar. Kettle-bells are too light (comparatively) to create meaningful enough stress to facilitate the stress, recovery, adaptation cycle in the context of training (goal oriented exercise). More reading on the topic: https://startingstrength.com/article/training_vs_exercise https://startingstrength.com/article/training_vs_exercise anarchodev, Rippetoe and Starting Strength are more interested in getting regular, everyday people strong than high school football players. Yes, it's a great way for getting young men big and strong (I gained 65lbs), but it's also a way to improve quality of life for octogenarians, for example. The low-bar squat is in the program versus the high bar squat because it uses more muscle mass, which means more weight on the bar can be used. Weight on the bar is the primary consideration in strength training - more of it is what's needed to get stronger. Here is a piece that analyzes the squat in detail: https://startingstrength.com/article/analysis_of_the_squat https://startingstrength.com/article/analysis_of_the_squat ubercore and DataWorker, for the purposes of strength training - low bar works better. It can be applied to any body type. Shorter torso = more horizontal back angle at the bottom of the squat, and vice versa. Goal is to load the hips, which are a more robust joint than the knees and are surrounded by more muscle mass. Low-bar is not one-size-fits-all, its a model for the squat that can be applied to nearly anyone, with rare exception. michaelgrafl the nature of goblet squats and front squats require a sub-maximal load when compared to the low bar back squat. They may be suitable for an exercise program, but they are not suitable for an efficient strength training program, and most certainly not for a novice. See comment above about training stress. I have a ton of respect for this community and would love to interact with you guys. Let me know if I can be helpful in any way. Best, Ray Gillenwater
novok 7y ago
I would also find a replacement for deadlifts too. As great as they are, it's fairly difficult to find a place that would accept them. Most gyms don't like them because they create a lot of noise and possible structural damage if the weightlifting equipment is not on the ground floor.
- ubercow13 7y ago
  Those sound like bad gyms. I have been to 10s of gyms in the UK and it's never been a problem. They are rarely on the ground floor and some even explained how to do deadlifts in the mandatory induction. Many gyms have platforms specifically for deadlift and sometimes proper Olympic weightlifting platforms and plates designed to be dropped from a height.

michaelgrafl 7y ago

I agree. I actually prefer goblet squats right now. Also going to try front-squats and see how that feels.

matwood 7y ago

Agree with everything you said. I actually only do front squats now after a back injury from basketball. I find I can get a great squat workout with much less weight, and it forces good posture or else the bar will roll off the front of your shoulders.

anarchodev 7y ago

Definitely agree on replacing cleans with more targeted movements -- slight nitpick, none of this is "weightlifting" which is a separate sport of its own requiring these movements but incorporating power and speed to efficiently perform the snatch and clean and jerk with maximal load on the bar. One thing to keep in mind with starting strength is that it was meant for high school football players who needed to rapidly add mass and strength. Low bar squats emphasize the posterior chain which are simply larger muscles, and will help the beginner see bigger gains faster and without spending time on the particular advanced cues necessary to perform high-bar squats correctly and safely without injuring your joints. (I'm thinking particularly of adductor strength and thoracic spine mobility.) On the other hand the low-bar squat is often coached incorrectly , resulting in much worse stress on the back and elbows (terrible cues like "knees back", etc). When taught correctly, the pressure commonly felt in the shoulders and elbows in this lift is simply a lack of flexibility and will resolve itself.

pwthornton 7y ago

Rows are a great exercise, but they aren't a replacement for cleans. The purpose of cleans is to build explosiveness and speed. A more beginner way to do this is to do kettlebell cleans or snatches, which are way easier to do than barbell cleans.

ubercore 7y ago

The squat style has a lot to do with body types I think. His squat style completely cleared up lower back and hip pains I was having with high-bar. I think people should try both and see where their bodies are most comfortable.

DataWorker 7y ago
Agree. Everybody’s geometry differs so choice of high or low bar will be very related to femur length vs torso length. One size fits all approach isn’t going to work for a lot of people.
lostapathy 7y ago
I agree. I have encouraged several people with squatting problems to squat low bar and it sorted out there issues very quickly.

yepguy 7y ago

It's absolutely possible to continue doing squats + bench + deadlifts in the same workout for a very long time. After about 6 months I moved to deadlifting only once per week, but it was still done on my "heavy day" after setting PRs on my squat and press/bench press. > Mark's hybrid squat, and low bar squats, put a huge amount of pressure on your elbows and shoulders. I had this problem, and it turned out to be a form problem that my Starting Strength Coach fixed without switching to a different exercise. You can't do the exercise wrong and then claim there's a problem with it.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
Yeah, I've been training for years and I'll still do deadlift work on a day I squat. Deadlift volume alone is so low it feels like a waste to just do that for my primary movement that day. The only time I get shoulder & elbow pain squatting is when I'm going too heavy on volume and my form is breaking down. Otherwise I don't notice it.

rayssgyms 7y ago

I'm a big fan of HN and happy to have a reason to create an account and comment after all of these years. I thoroughly enjoy the intelligent conversation here. As a Starting Strength Coach (there are around 130 of us), I I can confirm that a few of the comments accurately sum up the objections (rather misunderstandings) of the program that H1Supreme highlighted. The powerclean is an important part of the novice program to build explosive power - the ability to display strength, quickly. It can be substituted by another lift, or a light deadlift day, if the trainee's injury status or age make it an unwise cost/benefit equation. But this is considered a trade-off and isn't ideal. Yes, the powerclean is technical. So is the squat. And the press. And the bench, to a much lesser degree. Which segues into the issue mentioned in the second point. Elbow pain in the squat. As accurately described by "yepguy," this is indeed a technical error. Here's how to fix it: https://startingstrength.com/training/preventing-elbow-pain-in-the-squat https://startingstrength.com/training/preventing-elbow-pain-... A few other thoughts: pwthornton, kettle-bell cleans and snatches are not a substitute for barbell cleans and snatches. What we're chasing is adequate training stress to facilitate an adaptation. One of the primary drivers of that stress is load - weight on the bar. Kettle-bells are too light (comparatively) to create meaningful enough stress to facilitate the stress, recovery, adaptation cycle in the context of training (goal oriented exercise). More reading on the topic: https://startingstrength.com/article/training_vs_exercise https://startingstrength.com/article/training_vs_exercise anarchodev, Rippetoe and Starting Strength are more interested in getting regular, everyday people strong than high school football players. Yes, it's a great way for getting young men big and strong (I gained 65lbs), but it's also a way to improve quality of life for octogenarians, for example. The low-bar squat is in the program versus the high bar squat because it uses more muscle mass, which means more weight on the bar can be used. Weight on the bar is the primary consideration in strength training - more of it is what's needed to get stronger. Here is a piece that analyzes the squat in detail: https://startingstrength.com/article/analysis_of_the_squat https://startingstrength.com/article/analysis_of_the_squat ubercore and DataWorker, for the purposes of strength training - low bar works better. It can be applied to any body type. Shorter torso = more horizontal back angle at the bottom of the squat, and vice versa. Goal is to load the hips, which are a more robust joint than the knees and are surrounded by more muscle mass. Low-bar is not one-size-fits-all, its a model for the squat that can be applied to nearly anyone, with rare exception. michaelgrafl the nature of goblet squats and front squats require a sub-maximal load when compared to the low bar back squat. They may be suitable for an exercise program, but they are not suitable for an efficient strength training program, and most certainly not for a novice. See comment above about training stress. I have a ton of respect for this community and would love to interact with you guys. Let me know if I can be helpful in any way. Best, Ray Gillenwater

novok 7y ago

I would also find a replacement for deadlifts too. As great as they are, it's fairly difficult to find a place that would accept them. Most gyms don't like them because they create a lot of noise and possible structural damage if the weightlifting equipment is not on the ground floor.

ubercow13 7y ago
Those sound like bad gyms. I have been to 10s of gyms in the UK and it's never been a problem. They are rarely on the ground floor and some even explained how to do deadlifts in the mandatory induction. Many gyms have platforms specifically for deadlift and sometimes proper Olympic weightlifting platforms and plates designed to be dropped from a height.