7 ms·

I doubt it. Chinese system only works when they are playing catch up. There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. The syst

by thkim 7y ago

I doubt it. Chinese system only works when they are playing catch up. There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. The system doesn't work when they need to push above everyone else.

yogthos 7y ago
somebody's been drinking propaganda Kool-Aid
- thkim 7y ago
  which part is propaganda?
  - yogthos 7y ago
    >There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. This is demonstrably false https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
    - thkim 7y ago
      You are confused by the "propaganda" you posted. Like I wrote in other thread, if the innovation comes at low cost, it might make sense to have no barrier to IP. Innovations in Shenzhen are low cost. It's vastly different from Samsung developing a new semiconductor manufacturing process.
z2 7y ago
In Korea, Japan, and many similar tech powerhouses, the link was two ways. With maturing technology and a desire to guard it, they developed better policy for protecting IP rights.
sterlind 7y ago
They've already pushed above US in fab tech and manufacturing. I'd bet that IP is well-protected within China, probably just by different means (e.g. closely-guarded secrets rather than patents.) There are many examples of Chinese bazillionaires who pioneered successful companies; their education system is superior to the US and they work harder. We've gotten lazy.. I think we have this coming to us.
phkahler 7y ago
It's not a lack of incentives to innovate. Authoritarian management styles are IMHO a hindrance to innovation. There is a balance needed of course, but I think they're quite far from that.
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  Their "management style" is far from being authoritarian. Chinese are extremely flexible and in China today you can innovate and just try about anything you want. Of course there are red lines that are quite obvious, but beyond that it's actually often freer than in the West. The Chinese system and culture are complex and cannot be brushed in black and white.
hrktb 7y ago
It depends on cost of going first vs second. If it’s 5 years of R&D for the whole company it won’t be worth it. If it’s low enough to be recouped while other players are trying to catch up, then IP or not companies will innovate.
rchaud 7y ago
> There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. And yet mobile payments are integrated into Chinese e-commerce with the frictionlessness that Apple Pay and the others can only dream of. Who defines what "pioneer" is? Is SV not "pioneering" because the vast majority of its companies are trying to be Salesforce and not Uber?
- shuckles 7y ago
  Given the sorry technological state of mobile payments, such as their reliance on QR to authenticate, it’s more likely that quick adoption resulted from having no legacy POS solution and not superior innovation. Unclear how QR has meaningfully less friction than NFC solutions.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    QR is fast, reliable and incredibly cheap to implement. It scans at a distance, with no significant chance of unintended transactions or MITM attacks. If I'm a roadside snack vendor and want to accept mobile payments, I don't need to buy some sort of NFC widget, I just need to print out a QR code and stick it on my cart. I can send 100rmb to a friend in a couple of seconds, without worrying whether their phone is NFC-enabled. QR payment exemplifies the sort of innovation that is powering China's growth and that American companies profoundly fail to understand. It isn't sexy, but it works well enough to become ubiquitous. America is just barely catching up with a two generation old payment technology (chip & pin), while China have leapfrogged them with a worse-is-better solution.
    - shuckles 7y ago
      "with no significant chance of unintended transactions or MITM attacks" I have worked with anti-fraud teams at Alibaba and other unnamed large Chinese firms. This is extremely far from the truth, and shoulder surfing QR scanning scams have been in the national news in China many times. NFC tags are cheap and already being proposed for scooters, etc. QR proliferation is again enabled mostly by the fact that there is no incumbency advantage, not because they're better innovations. Even you admit they aren't, and you don't seem to fully understand how bad QR is as a payment media. Imagine Square's uptake in American SMBs and then mentally map that almost every Chinese retailer is or recently was an SMB. That's simply what's happening. I don't harbor the notion that the US is particularly advanced, especially in standardized infrastructure, but pointing to QR as an example of Chinese innovation is not convincing.
jdietrich 7y ago
>There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. China has a different IP culture with some striking similarities to open source culture. Knowledge and expertise is shared through trusted peer networks (guanxi) for mutual benefit. I share what I know with you, on the expectation that you'll share what you know with me. Being particularly smart or innovative has real but intangible value, because it elevates your status within that peer network. Likewise, if you have a reputation as a parasite then you'll quickly find yourself being marginalised. This culture powers a very rapid cycle of iterative improvement. You can't rest on your laurels, you can't milk one innovation for the duration of a patent, you can't use an IP portfolio to block new entrants to the market. You have to keep innovating to stay relevant, you have to build and maintain a reputation for quality and value with every product, otherwise someone will eat your lunch. If Western companies can't get past the stereotype of Chinese companies as lazy copycats, they have no long-term future. Shenzhen is full of smart, motivated people who are moving up the value chain at an alarming pace with innovative products and an innovative way of doing business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4wbFdePb-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4wbFdePb-k
imtringued 7y ago
The incentive will be that key suppliers like ARM are forbidden from doing business with them.

by thkim 7y ago

yogthos 7y ago

somebody's been drinking propaganda Kool-Aid

thkim 7y ago
which part is propaganda?
- yogthos 7y ago
  >There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. This is demonstrably false https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
  - thkim 7y ago
    You are confused by the "propaganda" you posted. Like I wrote in other thread, if the innovation comes at low cost, it might make sense to have no barrier to IP. Innovations in Shenzhen are low cost. It's vastly different from Samsung developing a new semiconductor manufacturing process.

z2 7y ago

In Korea, Japan, and many similar tech powerhouses, the link was two ways. With maturing technology and a desire to guard it, they developed better policy for protecting IP rights.

sterlind 7y ago

They've already pushed above US in fab tech and manufacturing. I'd bet that IP is well-protected within China, probably just by different means (e.g. closely-guarded secrets rather than patents.) There are many examples of Chinese bazillionaires who pioneered successful companies; their education system is superior to the US and they work harder. We've gotten lazy.. I think we have this coming to us.

phkahler 7y ago

It's not a lack of incentives to innovate. Authoritarian management styles are IMHO a hindrance to innovation. There is a balance needed of course, but I think they're quite far from that.

NotPaidToPost 7y ago
Their "management style" is far from being authoritarian. Chinese are extremely flexible and in China today you can innovate and just try about anything you want. Of course there are red lines that are quite obvious, but beyond that it's actually often freer than in the West. The Chinese system and culture are complex and cannot be brushed in black and white.

hrktb 7y ago

It depends on cost of going first vs second. If it’s 5 years of R&D for the whole company it won’t be worth it. If it’s low enough to be recouped while other players are trying to catch up, then IP or not companies will innovate.

rchaud 7y ago

> There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. And yet mobile payments are integrated into Chinese e-commerce with the frictionlessness that Apple Pay and the others can only dream of. Who defines what "pioneer" is? Is SV not "pioneering" because the vast majority of its companies are trying to be Salesforce and not Uber?

shuckles 7y ago
Given the sorry technological state of mobile payments, such as their reliance on QR to authenticate, it’s more likely that quick adoption resulted from having no legacy POS solution and not superior innovation. Unclear how QR has meaningfully less friction than NFC solutions.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  QR is fast, reliable and incredibly cheap to implement. It scans at a distance, with no significant chance of unintended transactions or MITM attacks. If I'm a roadside snack vendor and want to accept mobile payments, I don't need to buy some sort of NFC widget, I just need to print out a QR code and stick it on my cart. I can send 100rmb to a friend in a couple of seconds, without worrying whether their phone is NFC-enabled. QR payment exemplifies the sort of innovation that is powering China's growth and that American companies profoundly fail to understand. It isn't sexy, but it works well enough to become ubiquitous. America is just barely catching up with a two generation old payment technology (chip & pin), while China have leapfrogged them with a worse-is-better solution.
  - shuckles 7y ago
    "with no significant chance of unintended transactions or MITM attacks" I have worked with anti-fraud teams at Alibaba and other unnamed large Chinese firms. This is extremely far from the truth, and shoulder surfing QR scanning scams have been in the national news in China many times. NFC tags are cheap and already being proposed for scooters, etc. QR proliferation is again enabled mostly by the fact that there is no incumbency advantage, not because they're better innovations. Even you admit they aren't, and you don't seem to fully understand how bad QR is as a payment media. Imagine Square's uptake in American SMBs and then mentally map that almost every Chinese retailer is or recently was an SMB. That's simply what's happening. I don't harbor the notion that the US is particularly advanced, especially in standardized infrastructure, but pointing to QR as an example of Chinese innovation is not convincing.

jdietrich 7y ago

>There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. China has a different IP culture with some striking similarities to open source culture. Knowledge and expertise is shared through trusted peer networks (guanxi) for mutual benefit. I share what I know with you, on the expectation that you'll share what you know with me. Being particularly smart or innovative has real but intangible value, because it elevates your status within that peer network. Likewise, if you have a reputation as a parasite then you'll quickly find yourself being marginalised. This culture powers a very rapid cycle of iterative improvement. You can't rest on your laurels, you can't milk one innovation for the duration of a patent, you can't use an IP portfolio to block new entrants to the market. You have to keep innovating to stay relevant, you have to build and maintain a reputation for quality and value with every product, otherwise someone will eat your lunch. If Western companies can't get past the stereotype of Chinese companies as lazy copycats, they have no long-term future. Shenzhen is full of smart, motivated people who are moving up the value chain at an alarming pace with innovative products and an innovative way of doing business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4wbFdePb-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4wbFdePb-k

imtringued 7y ago

The incentive will be that key suppliers like ARM are forbidden from doing business with them.