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Nobody is going to care about this in the long run, and it's pretty clear that China has already moved past US capabilities with tech like 5G. This will only sp

Nobody is going to care about this in the long run, and it's pretty clear that China has already moved past US capabilities with tech like 5G. This will only spur more investment in domestic technology. China has a far better education system, a lot more people, and a government that's able to do long term planning. I expect them to leapfrog US within a decade or so.

mark_l_watson 7y ago
I tend to agree with you. I think you are saying that long term it is not a good idea to force economic adversaries to produce their own home grown tech. I have what is probably a bad analogy: it is like we are physically stronger now but we force economic adversaries to go work out at the gym and get in shape.
patentatt 7y ago
That overlooks the long history and cultural norm of borrowing or copying to advance. Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. If China does become a tech leader it will have to shift those deeply rooted cultural forces first. That, and their government that is capable of long term planning is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. I do not think China will become the technology leader you’re hypothesizing. Edit: Why don’t you ask the millions in the re-education camps how advanced China’s education system is?
- yogthos 7y ago
  Are we talking about the same China here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  > Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. That's clearly not true and is visible everywhere in China. > is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. That's not true. Chinese culture tolerates diversity and uniqueness much more than Japanese culture, for example. Discussions would gain in value if people commented on what they have at least a modicum of knowledge about and were open to learn others' cultures.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    Japan doesn't maintain prison camps for political dissenters, last I checked.
    - komali2 7y ago
      Chinese culture is as capable of tolerating diversity as any other - take a look at Taiwan. Same sex marriage legalized last week. The political institutions in mainland China, on the other hand, are motivated by nationalist tendencies to foment hatred to Other. Aaaand they definitely jail people just for religious group membership so they discriminatory as fuck.
      - esyir 7y ago
        Eh, I don't think most people think of Taiwan when they say "Chinese culture", especially in the US. The mainland and Taiwan are far enough diverged that they should be considered two fairly distant clades.
        NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        Taiwan is 100% Chinese culture. If people don't think of Taiwan when they say "Chinese culture" perhaps it's simply because they don't actually know about the topic.
        komali2 7y ago
        I should clarify, this is fair. When I say "Chinese culture," I mean in the Epic sense - five thousand years of Chinese heritage and cultural tradition, mushed together from all the provinces and colonies. It's not a very well defined thing, so your comment is quite fair. It includes things like the use of the Han writing system, a similar linguistic heritage, certain medical beliefs, a smorgasbord of culinary traditions, a flavor of bureaucracy, etc. With this in mind, the PRC has slowly been eroding many aspects of this "traditional" Chinese culture, such as the high respect paid towards intellectuals, teachers, and philosophers (through the use of reeducation camps and propaganda). Meanwhile, Taiwan starts to discover new things about the natures of traditional Chinese culture, like its compatibility with quite liberal concepts (same-sex marriage, as an example). Many Taiwanese people will say their cultural identity aligns with the thousands of years of Chinese history, while rejecting the last 60 years or so of change on the mainland. Nowadays someone might say "Chinese culture" and be taken to mean things like "tendency towards tyrannical capitalism masked as communism" or "tendency to imprison people for thought-crimes," so I appreciate you bringing this up.
- aclsid 7y ago
  You seem to forget that China has like 50+ minorities that are encouraged to rise up in society, with preferred employment in the regions they are from or better chance to get at top universities. That some Uyghur have been trying to create domestic terrorism and that the central government response is blunt that is true, but the same can be said of how a lot of members of the Muslim community are treated in the West, especially in places like Gitmo. As for pioneering, just by seeing what happened with digital payments, I think you are in for a surprise. The worst thing one can do in general is think that you are so superior that no other people can overcome you. China suffered greatly from having such delusions in the past and so will the US if they don't get any wiser.
  - patentatt 7y ago
    I wouldn’t say the US is absolutely superior in any way, if anything I’d place the progressive EU countries at the top of that list. There seems to be something rotting at the core of the US too. Just different. And while the US has its own atrocious human rights violations, so does China. And an Orwellian one-party government. We should not be defending totalitarian regimes of any kind. And nice try trying to whitewash genocide and concentration camps, but I personally am steadfastly against fascism, for what it’s worth. You do you though.
  - komali2 7y ago
    Perhaps there are a lot of upset Uyghurs because the Chinese government keeps throwing their people into internment camps and surveilling Uyghur people wholesale? >Uyghurs in Xinjiang suffer under a "fully-fledged police state" with extensive controls and restrictions upon their religious, cultural and social life. In Xinjiang, the Chinese government has expanded police surveillance to watch for signs of "religious extremism" that include owning books about Uyghurs, growing a beard, having a prayer rug, or quitting smoking or drinking. The government had also installed cameras in the homes of private citizens. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs?wprov=sfla1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs?wprov=sfla1
- throw667843 7y ago
  > Edit: Why don’t you ask the millions in the re-education camps how advanced China’s education system is? Would asking the millions in US prisions help us understand how innovative the US is? What I find interesting is Xi was sent to a re-education camp as a teen and now he is the most powerful person in China.
thkim 7y ago
I doubt it. Chinese system only works when they are playing catch up. There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. The system doesn't work when they need to push above everyone else.
- yogthos 7y ago
  somebody's been drinking propaganda Kool-Aid
  - thkim 7y ago
    which part is propaganda?
    - yogthos 7y ago
      >There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. This is demonstrably false https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
      - thkim 7y ago
        You are confused by the "propaganda" you posted. Like I wrote in other thread, if the innovation comes at low cost, it might make sense to have no barrier to IP. Innovations in Shenzhen are low cost. It's vastly different from Samsung developing a new semiconductor manufacturing process.
- z2 7y ago
  In Korea, Japan, and many similar tech powerhouses, the link was two ways. With maturing technology and a desire to guard it, they developed better policy for protecting IP rights.
- sterlind 7y ago
  They've already pushed above US in fab tech and manufacturing. I'd bet that IP is well-protected within China, probably just by different means (e.g. closely-guarded secrets rather than patents.) There are many examples of Chinese bazillionaires who pioneered successful companies; their education system is superior to the US and they work harder. We've gotten lazy.. I think we have this coming to us.

mark_l_watson 7y ago

I tend to agree with you. I think you are saying that long term it is not a good idea to force economic adversaries to produce their own home grown tech. I have what is probably a bad analogy: it is like we are physically stronger now but we force economic adversaries to go work out at the gym and get in shape.

patentatt 7y ago

That overlooks the long history and cultural norm of borrowing or copying to advance. Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. If China does become a tech leader it will have to shift those deeply rooted cultural forces first. That, and their government that is capable of long term planning is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. I do not think China will become the technology leader you’re hypothesizing. Edit: Why don’t you ask the millions in the re-education camps how advanced China’s education system is?

yogthos 7y ago
Are we talking about the same China here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
NotPaidToPost 7y ago
> Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. That's clearly not true and is visible everywhere in China. > is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. That's not true. Chinese culture tolerates diversity and uniqueness much more than Japanese culture, for example. Discussions would gain in value if people commented on what they have at least a modicum of knowledge about and were open to learn others' cultures.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Japan doesn't maintain prison camps for political dissenters, last I checked.
  - komali2 7y ago
    Chinese culture is as capable of tolerating diversity as any other - take a look at Taiwan. Same sex marriage legalized last week. The political institutions in mainland China, on the other hand, are motivated by nationalist tendencies to foment hatred to Other. Aaaand they definitely jail people just for religious group membership so they discriminatory as fuck.
    - esyir 7y ago
      Eh, I don't think most people think of Taiwan when they say "Chinese culture", especially in the US. The mainland and Taiwan are far enough diverged that they should be considered two fairly distant clades.
      - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        Taiwan is 100% Chinese culture. If people don't think of Taiwan when they say "Chinese culture" perhaps it's simply because they don't actually know about the topic.
      - komali2 7y ago
        I should clarify, this is fair. When I say "Chinese culture," I mean in the Epic sense - five thousand years of Chinese heritage and cultural tradition, mushed together from all the provinces and colonies. It's not a very well defined thing, so your comment is quite fair. It includes things like the use of the Han writing system, a similar linguistic heritage, certain medical beliefs, a smorgasbord of culinary traditions, a flavor of bureaucracy, etc. With this in mind, the PRC has slowly been eroding many aspects of this "traditional" Chinese culture, such as the high respect paid towards intellectuals, teachers, and philosophers (through the use of reeducation camps and propaganda). Meanwhile, Taiwan starts to discover new things about the natures of traditional Chinese culture, like its compatibility with quite liberal concepts (same-sex marriage, as an example). Many Taiwanese people will say their cultural identity aligns with the thousands of years of Chinese history, while rejecting the last 60 years or so of change on the mainland. Nowadays someone might say "Chinese culture" and be taken to mean things like "tendency towards tyrannical capitalism masked as communism" or "tendency to imprison people for thought-crimes," so I appreciate you bringing this up.
aclsid 7y ago
You seem to forget that China has like 50+ minorities that are encouraged to rise up in society, with preferred employment in the regions they are from or better chance to get at top universities. That some Uyghur have been trying to create domestic terrorism and that the central government response is blunt that is true, but the same can be said of how a lot of members of the Muslim community are treated in the West, especially in places like Gitmo. As for pioneering, just by seeing what happened with digital payments, I think you are in for a surprise. The worst thing one can do in general is think that you are so superior that no other people can overcome you. China suffered greatly from having such delusions in the past and so will the US if they don't get any wiser.
- patentatt 7y ago
  I wouldn’t say the US is absolutely superior in any way, if anything I’d place the progressive EU countries at the top of that list. There seems to be something rotting at the core of the US too. Just different. And while the US has its own atrocious human rights violations, so does China. And an Orwellian one-party government. We should not be defending totalitarian regimes of any kind. And nice try trying to whitewash genocide and concentration camps, but I personally am steadfastly against fascism, for what it’s worth. You do you though.
- komali2 7y ago
  Perhaps there are a lot of upset Uyghurs because the Chinese government keeps throwing their people into internment camps and surveilling Uyghur people wholesale? >Uyghurs in Xinjiang suffer under a "fully-fledged police state" with extensive controls and restrictions upon their religious, cultural and social life. In Xinjiang, the Chinese government has expanded police surveillance to watch for signs of "religious extremism" that include owning books about Uyghurs, growing a beard, having a prayer rug, or quitting smoking or drinking. The government had also installed cameras in the homes of private citizens. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs?wprov=sfla1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs?wprov=sfla1
throw667843 7y ago
> Edit: Why don’t you ask the millions in the re-education camps how advanced China’s education system is? Would asking the millions in US prisions help us understand how innovative the US is? What I find interesting is Xi was sent to a re-education camp as a teen and now he is the most powerful person in China.

thkim 7y ago

I doubt it. Chinese system only works when they are playing catch up. There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. The system doesn't work when they need to push above everyone else.

yogthos 7y ago
somebody's been drinking propaganda Kool-Aid
- thkim 7y ago
  which part is propaganda?
  - yogthos 7y ago
    >There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. This is demonstrably false https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
    - thkim 7y ago
      You are confused by the "propaganda" you posted. Like I wrote in other thread, if the innovation comes at low cost, it might make sense to have no barrier to IP. Innovations in Shenzhen are low cost. It's vastly different from Samsung developing a new semiconductor manufacturing process.
z2 7y ago
In Korea, Japan, and many similar tech powerhouses, the link was two ways. With maturing technology and a desire to guard it, they developed better policy for protecting IP rights.
sterlind 7y ago
They've already pushed above US in fab tech and manufacturing. I'd bet that IP is well-protected within China, probably just by different means (e.g. closely-guarded secrets rather than patents.) There are many examples of Chinese bazillionaires who pioneered successful companies; their education system is superior to the US and they work harder. We've gotten lazy.. I think we have this coming to us.