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This could be a really great thing in the long run. I'm really hoping this will promote open hardware and software in the future. Huawei is most likely to start

This could be a really great thing in the long run. I'm really hoping this will promote open hardware and software in the future. Huawei is most likely to start relying on open source tech, since they're under so much scrutiny that's the best way to show they're being above board. Using open software and hardware would also show that same thing couldn't happen with their stack in the future. If they're smart, they'll partner up with some companies in EU to make it an international effort. US is basically terrified of losing control of mobile networks when 5G ends up being implemented by a Chinese company. They're also clearly doing the exact thing they're accusing China of themselves here. I think that this is going to backfire spectacularly in the long run.

zaphar 7y ago
There is one critical difference between America and China here. American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. Whatever you may think of the wisdom of a trade war, no one can really argue that China hasn't given the US all the ammunition it needed to give political cover to engaged in one.
- molteanu 7y ago
  When you're advanced enough, there is no need for you do to IP. Maybe the risk is not worth it or there is nothing to gain from it. It's the same argument with the open markets. When you're already a developed economy, open markets benefit you since you have the best products, your production facilities are in place and you can offer both quantity, quality and reasonable prices. But when you are a developing nation, protections are needed for key sectors. US did both of these things. That is, closed markets and protectionism and IP theft. It doesn't matter that, oh, "this was a long time ago, it doesn't count". It does. Advantages add up year after year, century after century. I'm not even trying to defend China, but instead, trying to be clear and honest about how these things work in the real world, regardless of sentiments and your favorite team. I just did a quick lookup, you can do the same. I'm sure there are more examples out there. In 1787, American agent Andrew Mitchell was intercepted by British authorities as he was trying to smuggle new technology out of the UK. His trunk was seized after being loaded on board a ship. Inside the trunk were models and drawings of one Britain's great industrial machines. Mitchell himself was able to escape and sought refuge in Denmark. But his mission marks the start of a sustained US campaign to steal technology from the world's hi-tech superpower of the day. [1] [1] https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-na...
  - Gorbzel 7y ago
    > I'm not even trying to defend China... That is 100% exactly what you’re doing. Indistinguishable from PRC sponsored misinformation.
    - molteanu 7y ago
      Huh? No, I'm trying not to be a hypocrite.
    - throwaway-hn123 7y ago
      Oh do shut up, you trivial little moron.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
      Which part is misinformation?
  - leereeves 7y ago
    And once China starts making discoveries of their own, they'll guard anything they discover. It's naive to imagine that they'll share their IP.
    - xbmcuser 7y ago
      They have already started making discoveries and advances and probably will get into IP enforcement like the US in the next decade or so.
    - Zenst 7y ago
      As they did with gunpowder, china-clay, silkworms, tea and even Panda's. I think only Panda's out of that small list have their IP still protected and the rest got industrial-theft treatment over the centuries. Though in fairness - they do share Panda's.
      - Quarrelsome 7y ago
        Byzantines robbed the silkworms in possibly one of the oldest written records of corporate espionage?
- yogthos 7y ago
  Nobody is going to care about this in the long run, and it's pretty clear that China has already moved past US capabilities with tech like 5G. This will only spur more investment in domestic technology. China has a far better education system, a lot more people, and a government that's able to do long term planning. I expect them to leapfrog US within a decade or so.
  - mark_l_watson 7y ago
    I tend to agree with you. I think you are saying that long term it is not a good idea to force economic adversaries to produce their own home grown tech. I have what is probably a bad analogy: it is like we are physically stronger now but we force economic adversaries to go work out at the gym and get in shape.
  - patentatt 7y ago
    That overlooks the long history and cultural norm of borrowing or copying to advance. Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. If China does become a tech leader it will have to shift those deeply rooted cultural forces first. That, and their government that is capable of long term planning is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. I do not think China will become the technology leader you’re hypothesizing. Edit: Why don’t you ask the millions in the re-education camps how advanced China’s education system is?
    - yogthos 7y ago
      Are we talking about the same China here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
    - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
      > Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. That's clearly not true and is visible everywhere in China. > is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. That's not true. Chinese culture tolerates diversity and uniqueness much more than Japanese culture, for example. Discussions would gain in value if people commented on what they have at least a modicum of knowledge about and were open to learn others' cultures.
- simion314 7y ago
  I am wondering if the huge IP theft is mostly propaganda similar to the one US uses before it starts a war or changes some government in other country.
  - craigsmansion 7y ago
    It depends. The most well-known and common form of "IP theft" is cheaply made Chinese knock-offs that are forgeries. That's trademark infringement. It's not that big of a problem. What is an actual problematic form of "IP theft" is China appropriating trade-secrets. The bulk of "IP theft" that is used to fuel the current war of words seems to be patent infringement. Patent infringement sounds problematic, but really isn't. Even though China can produce devices that infringe, they can't sell those goods back to areas of the world where patent enforcement isn't as lax. They can sell them in China and that's a large market, but: - companies buying cheaply produced local copies weren't likely to buy the real thing in the first place. - Local copies are of inferior quality. By the time the local copies approach the quality of the original, they will be priced in the same ballpark as the original (and the original will be on the next generation). So yes, there is "IP theft" going on, but once again the term "IP" is being thrown around to obfuscate matters to support a political end and reality is quite a bit more complex but not as threatening as it's made out to be.
    - patentatt 7y ago
      That ignores the advancing production capabilities and the vast grey market that moves goods into the US. That and the complacency of Amazon produce a situation where high quality knock offs can be made in China and find their way into the US market quite easily. Note: I’m speaking not of trademark infringement but patent infringement. It’s really no different. Patent infringement is problematic.
      - simion314 7y ago
        And instead of blocking the import of those fake products or the ones that infringe some IP (hopefully after you prove that) the US is blocking Huawei because of security concerns and instead of trying to find if there are backdoors in Huawei products, discussing how can we detect this backdoors, compare this backdoors with the ones in US products we are trying to switch the narative to the cheap Chinese products that are imported by US companies into US.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Maybe, but then historically - did China start stealing western IP or did the west? Silkworms, tea, pottery, gunpowder.... many things that got invented in China and in effect stolen by the west. So you could argue that the west gave China ammunition in the past to go down this route. Either way - the whole aspect of one country stealing another's secrets in regard to trade and product has a very long history. What the consumers (the ones affected) really need to be seeing though is a smoking gun. Whilst we are not talking WMD's here, we are talking about the same level of proof being bestowed upon the joe-public. That - does need to change and equally such evidence need to be credible with more than a grain of truth about it. Sure we have all read and heard and kinda-know what's going on and has gone on, but the public need to be told in a way that is clear cut and removes all doubt.
  - sanxiyn 7y ago
    The west's stealing of silkworm (ca. 552) is a very interesting story. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_int...
    - Zenst 7y ago
      Yes and many a well-done documentary telling the story. Though the story of how tea was smuggled out is one I've only recently become aware of and equally as fascinating. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea-heist-9866709/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea...
  - hahahaha23 7y ago
    China smuggled sweet potato http://www.chinastudyabroad.org/indepthchina/1039-china-and-the-sweet-potato http://www.chinastudyabroad.org/indepthchina/1039-china-and-...
- nicoburns 7y ago
  Looking at it the other way: America has state sponsored restriction of free use of knowledge. IP law is considered important by America (and it has imposed this everywhere), but it is not straightforwardly a good thing (and I think most people would argue that copyright protection periods are currently too long)
- sterlind 7y ago
  Until now. The US seems to think Huawei poses a national security threat. Huawei seems to have won on 5G, to the point where UK is considering buying Huawei 5G equipment despite tons of pressure. Therefore, stealing the IP would be a national security priority. I'd bet dollars to donuts the NSA is trying to steal Huawei's 5G IP right now, though it'll be hard since they can't easily tap within China (no fiber links in friendly waters) and CIA's humint presence got rolled up when China hacked their network.
  - crazypyro 7y ago
    I think it wouldn't be so unreasonable to assume someone in the US government IC has Huawei's IP already.
  - bugdd0 7y ago
    They don't need to steal. They can just do the same they did to ZTE, they managed to install a person or two into their board of directors as part of the settlement of the dispute.
- peteretep 7y ago
  In before "America stole from the British so it's OK" comments! Ah, no, look, I'm three hours late. _А у вас негров линчуют_
  - throw667843 7y ago
    It’s not OK, but it shows this is natural. Like Japan stealing IP in the 80s and South Korea in the 90s.
- gloflo 7y ago
  Oh look! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial... And no one can argue that the west including the US has given the rest of the world enough ammunition to feel a bit mistreated in the last centuries of exploitation.
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  > American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. But they were in theft of European IP when the U.S. was at a similar developmental level than China is now.
- mtw 7y ago
  There is no wholesale theft. Theft is getting something against their will or them not knowing. China offered foreign corporations to open factories in China, under the condition that's it's done with a local partner. Western companies put IP, funds and many other assets in the joint venture, willingly. This is the same as American corporations selling tanks and planes to Israel. Now look right now and you have Israeli companies producing latest-gen weapons, with a large portion integrating American design and IP. Where is the outrage? If you are thinking about groups of hackers hacking into networks and stealing plans and designs, we're more at the stage of McCarthyism hysteria or anti-japanese sentiments in the 80-90s. So far, what's more obvious is state-sponsored Russian hackers, and a bit behind Israeli hackers. Now at the individual level or at corporation level, it is true there are cases of theft. For example, there are blatant copies of the Mercedes G-Wagon, many other cars and products. Chinese will get a copy of your product and will find a way to sell you a copy for 1/3rd the price. There is no wholesale state sponsored theft, and a large percentage of Chinese companies actually follow the law. I think people must be very careful currently. You're just being a mouthpiece for Steve Bannon and Trump by writing "wholesale state sponsored theft"
- jacquesm 7y ago
  > American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. That's because the Chinese don't have IP worth stealing. But there have been quite a few documented cases of the US stealing IP from European countries that they thought was worth stealing...
0815test 7y ago
> Huawei is most likely to start relying on open source tech If only. So far they've been very much the opposite, even in comparison to other CN companies! Which is one key reason why this whole kerfuffle is going to be so much of a problem for them. In theory, they would have plenty to gain by retooling towards open solutions - but everything so far implies that they won't!
- yogthos 7y ago
  Possible, but they're in a completely different situation now where their credibility is under threat. Before they were just another phone company, now they have to prove that their technology is above board.
  - criddell 7y ago
    They were never just another phone company. Their ties to the Chinese government were never a secret. If the US government partnered with a US company founded by former Defense Department people to build a product called Freedom Fone using mostly open source software, would you trust it?
    - yogthos 7y ago
      A lot of open source American tech has roots in NSA and other agencies. Signal and Tor are good examples, yet people seem to trust them.
      - criddell 7y ago
        The operations of a company with size and might of Huawei in China is nothing like the operations of big European or American companies. The Chinese government is very involved. They have offices in the company. Do you think Signal has a government representative on site all the time?
        elp 7y ago
        Large American corps spend a lot on lobbying. Its not really different. Also I seem to remember that the CIA's investment company was one of the early investors in Google.
kristianc 7y ago
> Huawei is most likely to start relying on open source tech, since they're under so much scrutiny that's the best way to show they're being above board. Most of the Shenzhen ecosystem is based on open-source ideas and tech, and China has seen an enormous level of innovation by doing so. Why should they partner / share with EU economies who are trying to regulate them out of existence?
- yogthos 7y ago
  Partnering up with EU helps legitimize them outside China, and opens up a huge market. If they're already partnering up to do 5G deployment in EU, it makes sense to continue creating closer ties.
  - nostalgk 7y ago
    I'd also add it will probably put some pressure on the United States to legitimize them again as well
  - kristianc 7y ago
    As a consumer, I want to be able to access Huawei and OnePlus tech - I don't care frankly if they are 'legitimised' in the eyes of politicians who may only want to protect national industries. If OnePlus make a smartphone that is £300 cheaper than an iPhone XR and offers roughly the same functionality, shouldn't I be able to buy it independent of what politicians think?
eleitl 7y ago
> They're also clearly doing the exact thing they're accusing China of themselves here. Indeed, it's widely known that Cisco/Juniper is pretty much in bed with the US intelligence, and so is Microsoft. It is also not very smart to antagonize a world power that you also need for a lot of critical components, including lots of modern fabs.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  > It is also not very smart to antagonize a world power that you also need for a lot of critical components, including lots of modern fabs. That requires the ability to think and plan long term, which many recent US presidencies have lacked.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    The electoral cycle has shifted presidential incentives towards the short-termism that quarterly financial reports have for publicly traded companies. It's about looking good in the short term, by any means necessary.
    - mschuster91 7y ago
      Electoral cycles have existed for millennia. The difference between back then until ~ 1980 (mind ya I wasn't born then, I'm referring to history books here) with the advent of Thatcherism was that politicians and entrepreneurs/companies alike had a sense of honor. Which means that regents, no matter if kingdoms or democratic governments, wanted to create a positive, long lasting image in history and companies actually respected their workers and paid them fair wages (and even if only so that their workers could afford the products). That resulted ultimately in the formation of the European Union and in what we Germans call "Soziale Marktwirtschaft". Beginning with Thatcher and exploding after the UdSSR fall came neoliberalism: ruthless privatisations everywhere (telcos, railways, postal services to name the most horrid examples which more often than not turned into shitshows), the total gutting of social security networks (anything from unemployment insurance over healthcare to social/affordable housing), and the lowest of the low being pitted against each other to totally implode wages while the top level enjoyed ever more and more payouts. Many a company employed their own cleaning and building maintenance staff - now it's all outsourced to the cheapest bidder. No wonder this has also reflected back into politics...
thommark 7y ago
I don't think EU will trust Huawei at all. Recently my country Netherlands has found backdoors in Huawei equipments https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-huawei-tech/dutch-spy-agency-investigating-alleged-huawei-backdoor-volkskrant-idUSKCN1SM0UY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-huawei-tech/d... . and the biggest telecom in my country just banned huawei in its 5G network. I am sure this will prompt more countries to reject Huawei, especially if one of the bigger countries like Italy, France, or Spain rejects them.
- alexeiz 7y ago
  I'm yet to see any concrete details of those "backdoors" they found in the Huawei equipment. I'm not saying there aren't any. But no concrete evidence of them surfaced yet. So far it's just some bullshit from the press that has zero knowledge of technology.
  - dd36 7y ago
    Why would they tell the public the backdoors they found? I wouldn’t even tell Huawei because then you’re telling them the ones you didn’t find. I’d just stop buying.
- A2017U1 7y ago
  > Recently my country Netherlands has found backdoors That's not what that article says at all. Meanwhile: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/evidence-of-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment-collapse-under-light-scrutiny/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/evidence-of-backdoors-i...
  - blu42 7y ago
    Come to think of it, I believe I might have found a couple of "back doors" in Win 10. Shall I call my EU parliament representative now about trade sanctions against MS, or shall I wait till Monday? Decisions, decisions..
tssva 7y ago
> "US is basically terrified of losing control of mobile networks when 5G ends up being implemented by a Chinese company." US companies don't control the mobile network device business now and won't after this. The largest beneficiaries of this are European.
86carr 7y ago
Said like someone who never had anything worth stealing.
writepub 7y ago
This optimistic hand waving is all OK - but starting in 90 days, when the US embargo kicks in, WHAT architecture will Huawei chips (Kirin?) use, when will they be designed and production ready and who will want Huawei phones with brand spaning new architecture instead of relying on decades mature ARM chips?

zaphar 7y ago

There is one critical difference between America and China here. American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. Whatever you may think of the wisdom of a trade war, no one can really argue that China hasn't given the US all the ammunition it needed to give political cover to engaged in one.

molteanu 7y ago
When you're advanced enough, there is no need for you do to IP. Maybe the risk is not worth it or there is nothing to gain from it. It's the same argument with the open markets. When you're already a developed economy, open markets benefit you since you have the best products, your production facilities are in place and you can offer both quantity, quality and reasonable prices. But when you are a developing nation, protections are needed for key sectors. US did both of these things. That is, closed markets and protectionism and IP theft. It doesn't matter that, oh, "this was a long time ago, it doesn't count". It does. Advantages add up year after year, century after century. I'm not even trying to defend China, but instead, trying to be clear and honest about how these things work in the real world, regardless of sentiments and your favorite team. I just did a quick lookup, you can do the same. I'm sure there are more examples out there. In 1787, American agent Andrew Mitchell was intercepted by British authorities as he was trying to smuggle new technology out of the UK. His trunk was seized after being loaded on board a ship. Inside the trunk were models and drawings of one Britain's great industrial machines. Mitchell himself was able to escape and sought refuge in Denmark. But his mission marks the start of a sustained US campaign to steal technology from the world's hi-tech superpower of the day. [1] [1] https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-na...
- Gorbzel 7y ago
  > I'm not even trying to defend China... That is 100% exactly what you’re doing. Indistinguishable from PRC sponsored misinformation.
  - molteanu 7y ago
    Huh? No, I'm trying not to be a hypocrite.
  - throwaway-hn123 7y ago
    Oh do shut up, you trivial little moron.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
    Which part is misinformation?
- leereeves 7y ago
  And once China starts making discoveries of their own, they'll guard anything they discover. It's naive to imagine that they'll share their IP.
  - xbmcuser 7y ago
    They have already started making discoveries and advances and probably will get into IP enforcement like the US in the next decade or so.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    As they did with gunpowder, china-clay, silkworms, tea and even Panda's. I think only Panda's out of that small list have their IP still protected and the rest got industrial-theft treatment over the centuries. Though in fairness - they do share Panda's.
    - Quarrelsome 7y ago
      Byzantines robbed the silkworms in possibly one of the oldest written records of corporate espionage?
yogthos 7y ago
Nobody is going to care about this in the long run, and it's pretty clear that China has already moved past US capabilities with tech like 5G. This will only spur more investment in domestic technology. China has a far better education system, a lot more people, and a government that's able to do long term planning. I expect them to leapfrog US within a decade or so.
- mark_l_watson 7y ago
  I tend to agree with you. I think you are saying that long term it is not a good idea to force economic adversaries to produce their own home grown tech. I have what is probably a bad analogy: it is like we are physically stronger now but we force economic adversaries to go work out at the gym and get in shape.
- patentatt 7y ago
  That overlooks the long history and cultural norm of borrowing or copying to advance. Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. If China does become a tech leader it will have to shift those deeply rooted cultural forces first. That, and their government that is capable of long term planning is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. I do not think China will become the technology leader you’re hypothesizing. Edit: Why don’t you ask the millions in the re-education camps how advanced China’s education system is?
  - yogthos 7y ago
    Are we talking about the same China here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
  - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
    > Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. That's clearly not true and is visible everywhere in China. > is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. That's not true. Chinese culture tolerates diversity and uniqueness much more than Japanese culture, for example. Discussions would gain in value if people commented on what they have at least a modicum of knowledge about and were open to learn others' cultures.
simion314 7y ago
I am wondering if the huge IP theft is mostly propaganda similar to the one US uses before it starts a war or changes some government in other country.
- craigsmansion 7y ago
  It depends. The most well-known and common form of "IP theft" is cheaply made Chinese knock-offs that are forgeries. That's trademark infringement. It's not that big of a problem. What is an actual problematic form of "IP theft" is China appropriating trade-secrets. The bulk of "IP theft" that is used to fuel the current war of words seems to be patent infringement. Patent infringement sounds problematic, but really isn't. Even though China can produce devices that infringe, they can't sell those goods back to areas of the world where patent enforcement isn't as lax. They can sell them in China and that's a large market, but: - companies buying cheaply produced local copies weren't likely to buy the real thing in the first place. - Local copies are of inferior quality. By the time the local copies approach the quality of the original, they will be priced in the same ballpark as the original (and the original will be on the next generation). So yes, there is "IP theft" going on, but once again the term "IP" is being thrown around to obfuscate matters to support a political end and reality is quite a bit more complex but not as threatening as it's made out to be.
  - patentatt 7y ago
    That ignores the advancing production capabilities and the vast grey market that moves goods into the US. That and the complacency of Amazon produce a situation where high quality knock offs can be made in China and find their way into the US market quite easily. Note: I’m speaking not of trademark infringement but patent infringement. It’s really no different. Patent infringement is problematic.
    - simion314 7y ago
      And instead of blocking the import of those fake products or the ones that infringe some IP (hopefully after you prove that) the US is blocking Huawei because of security concerns and instead of trying to find if there are backdoors in Huawei products, discussing how can we detect this backdoors, compare this backdoors with the ones in US products we are trying to switch the narative to the cheap Chinese products that are imported by US companies into US.
Zenst 7y ago
Maybe, but then historically - did China start stealing western IP or did the west? Silkworms, tea, pottery, gunpowder.... many things that got invented in China and in effect stolen by the west. So you could argue that the west gave China ammunition in the past to go down this route. Either way - the whole aspect of one country stealing another's secrets in regard to trade and product has a very long history. What the consumers (the ones affected) really need to be seeing though is a smoking gun. Whilst we are not talking WMD's here, we are talking about the same level of proof being bestowed upon the joe-public. That - does need to change and equally such evidence need to be credible with more than a grain of truth about it. Sure we have all read and heard and kinda-know what's going on and has gone on, but the public need to be told in a way that is clear cut and removes all doubt.
- sanxiyn 7y ago
  The west's stealing of silkworm (ca. 552) is a very interesting story. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_int...
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Yes and many a well-done documentary telling the story. Though the story of how tea was smuggled out is one I've only recently become aware of and equally as fascinating. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea-heist-9866709/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea...
- hahahaha23 7y ago
  China smuggled sweet potato http://www.chinastudyabroad.org/indepthchina/1039-china-and-the-sweet-potato http://www.chinastudyabroad.org/indepthchina/1039-china-and-...
nicoburns 7y ago
Looking at it the other way: America has state sponsored restriction of free use of knowledge. IP law is considered important by America (and it has imposed this everywhere), but it is not straightforwardly a good thing (and I think most people would argue that copyright protection periods are currently too long)
sterlind 7y ago
Until now. The US seems to think Huawei poses a national security threat. Huawei seems to have won on 5G, to the point where UK is considering buying Huawei 5G equipment despite tons of pressure. Therefore, stealing the IP would be a national security priority. I'd bet dollars to donuts the NSA is trying to steal Huawei's 5G IP right now, though it'll be hard since they can't easily tap within China (no fiber links in friendly waters) and CIA's humint presence got rolled up when China hacked their network.
- crazypyro 7y ago
  I think it wouldn't be so unreasonable to assume someone in the US government IC has Huawei's IP already.
- bugdd0 7y ago
  They don't need to steal. They can just do the same they did to ZTE, they managed to install a person or two into their board of directors as part of the settlement of the dispute.
peteretep 7y ago
In before "America stole from the British so it's OK" comments! Ah, no, look, I'm three hours late. _А у вас негров линчуют_
- throw667843 7y ago
  It’s not OK, but it shows this is natural. Like Japan stealing IP in the 80s and South Korea in the 90s.
gloflo 7y ago
Oh look! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial... And no one can argue that the west including the US has given the rest of the world enough ammunition to feel a bit mistreated in the last centuries of exploitation.
AsyncAwait 7y ago
> American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. But they were in theft of European IP when the U.S. was at a similar developmental level than China is now.
mtw 7y ago
There is no wholesale theft. Theft is getting something against their will or them not knowing. China offered foreign corporations to open factories in China, under the condition that's it's done with a local partner. Western companies put IP, funds and many other assets in the joint venture, willingly. This is the same as American corporations selling tanks and planes to Israel. Now look right now and you have Israeli companies producing latest-gen weapons, with a large portion integrating American design and IP. Where is the outrage? If you are thinking about groups of hackers hacking into networks and stealing plans and designs, we're more at the stage of McCarthyism hysteria or anti-japanese sentiments in the 80-90s. So far, what's more obvious is state-sponsored Russian hackers, and a bit behind Israeli hackers. Now at the individual level or at corporation level, it is true there are cases of theft. For example, there are blatant copies of the Mercedes G-Wagon, many other cars and products. Chinese will get a copy of your product and will find a way to sell you a copy for 1/3rd the price. There is no wholesale state sponsored theft, and a large percentage of Chinese companies actually follow the law. I think people must be very careful currently. You're just being a mouthpiece for Steve Bannon and Trump by writing "wholesale state sponsored theft"
jacquesm 7y ago
> American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. That's because the Chinese don't have IP worth stealing. But there have been quite a few documented cases of the US stealing IP from European countries that they thought was worth stealing...

0815test 7y ago

> Huawei is most likely to start relying on open source tech If only. So far they've been very much the opposite, even in comparison to other CN companies! Which is one key reason why this whole kerfuffle is going to be so much of a problem for them. In theory, they would have plenty to gain by retooling towards open solutions - but everything so far implies that they won't!

yogthos 7y ago
Possible, but they're in a completely different situation now where their credibility is under threat. Before they were just another phone company, now they have to prove that their technology is above board.
- criddell 7y ago
  They were never just another phone company. Their ties to the Chinese government were never a secret. If the US government partnered with a US company founded by former Defense Department people to build a product called Freedom Fone using mostly open source software, would you trust it?
  - yogthos 7y ago
    A lot of open source American tech has roots in NSA and other agencies. Signal and Tor are good examples, yet people seem to trust them.
    - criddell 7y ago
      The operations of a company with size and might of Huawei in China is nothing like the operations of big European or American companies. The Chinese government is very involved. They have offices in the company. Do you think Signal has a government representative on site all the time?
      - elp 7y ago
        Large American corps spend a lot on lobbying. Its not really different. Also I seem to remember that the CIA's investment company was one of the early investors in Google.

kristianc 7y ago

> Huawei is most likely to start relying on open source tech, since they're under so much scrutiny that's the best way to show they're being above board. Most of the Shenzhen ecosystem is based on open-source ideas and tech, and China has seen an enormous level of innovation by doing so. Why should they partner / share with EU economies who are trying to regulate them out of existence?

yogthos 7y ago
Partnering up with EU helps legitimize them outside China, and opens up a huge market. If they're already partnering up to do 5G deployment in EU, it makes sense to continue creating closer ties.
- nostalgk 7y ago
  I'd also add it will probably put some pressure on the United States to legitimize them again as well
- kristianc 7y ago
  As a consumer, I want to be able to access Huawei and OnePlus tech - I don't care frankly if they are 'legitimised' in the eyes of politicians who may only want to protect national industries. If OnePlus make a smartphone that is £300 cheaper than an iPhone XR and offers roughly the same functionality, shouldn't I be able to buy it independent of what politicians think?

eleitl 7y ago

> They're also clearly doing the exact thing they're accusing China of themselves here. Indeed, it's widely known that Cisco/Juniper is pretty much in bed with the US intelligence, and so is Microsoft. It is also not very smart to antagonize a world power that you also need for a lot of critical components, including lots of modern fabs.

mschuster91 7y ago
> It is also not very smart to antagonize a world power that you also need for a lot of critical components, including lots of modern fabs. That requires the ability to think and plan long term, which many recent US presidencies have lacked.
- rchaud 7y ago
  The electoral cycle has shifted presidential incentives towards the short-termism that quarterly financial reports have for publicly traded companies. It's about looking good in the short term, by any means necessary.
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    Electoral cycles have existed for millennia. The difference between back then until ~ 1980 (mind ya I wasn't born then, I'm referring to history books here) with the advent of Thatcherism was that politicians and entrepreneurs/companies alike had a sense of honor. Which means that regents, no matter if kingdoms or democratic governments, wanted to create a positive, long lasting image in history and companies actually respected their workers and paid them fair wages (and even if only so that their workers could afford the products). That resulted ultimately in the formation of the European Union and in what we Germans call "Soziale Marktwirtschaft". Beginning with Thatcher and exploding after the UdSSR fall came neoliberalism: ruthless privatisations everywhere (telcos, railways, postal services to name the most horrid examples which more often than not turned into shitshows), the total gutting of social security networks (anything from unemployment insurance over healthcare to social/affordable housing), and the lowest of the low being pitted against each other to totally implode wages while the top level enjoyed ever more and more payouts. Many a company employed their own cleaning and building maintenance staff - now it's all outsourced to the cheapest bidder. No wonder this has also reflected back into politics...

thommark 7y ago

I don't think EU will trust Huawei at all. Recently my country Netherlands has found backdoors in Huawei equipments https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-huawei-tech/dutch-spy-agency-investigating-alleged-huawei-backdoor-volkskrant-idUSKCN1SM0UY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-huawei-tech/d... . and the biggest telecom in my country just banned huawei in its 5G network. I am sure this will prompt more countries to reject Huawei, especially if one of the bigger countries like Italy, France, or Spain rejects them.

alexeiz 7y ago
I'm yet to see any concrete details of those "backdoors" they found in the Huawei equipment. I'm not saying there aren't any. But no concrete evidence of them surfaced yet. So far it's just some bullshit from the press that has zero knowledge of technology.
- dd36 7y ago
  Why would they tell the public the backdoors they found? I wouldn’t even tell Huawei because then you’re telling them the ones you didn’t find. I’d just stop buying.
A2017U1 7y ago
> Recently my country Netherlands has found backdoors That's not what that article says at all. Meanwhile: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/evidence-of-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment-collapse-under-light-scrutiny/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/evidence-of-backdoors-i...
- blu42 7y ago
  Come to think of it, I believe I might have found a couple of "back doors" in Win 10. Shall I call my EU parliament representative now about trade sanctions against MS, or shall I wait till Monday? Decisions, decisions..

tssva 7y ago

> "US is basically terrified of losing control of mobile networks when 5G ends up being implemented by a Chinese company." US companies don't control the mobile network device business now and won't after this. The largest beneficiaries of this are European.

86carr 7y ago

Said like someone who never had anything worth stealing.

writepub 7y ago

This optimistic hand waving is all OK - but starting in 90 days, when the US embargo kicks in, WHAT architecture will Huawei chips (Kirin?) use, when will they be designed and production ready and who will want Huawei phones with brand spaning new architecture instead of relying on decades mature ARM chips?